Rafter Roofing Help

[Bad4Bizness84]

The fact still stands... Even thought the old houses sink a little or shift here and there, they're still standing, I could right now put my fist through my wall no problem, but try to put your hand through a house wall in an 80 yr old house.. You'll break your wrist or arm! My point still stands that if the structure is physically standing after 20 yrs for a garage that's good enough! In a house no, but its a garage! I hate all this new age **** and forward thinkers... I along with plenty other Americans wish things would revert back to about the 1950's when every willing man could find a job instantly, it was not ok to be gay, children were respectful, and good quality everything was made, all these people nowadays going hungry, and losing their homes, homosexuality and godlessness running a muck, and putting all kinds of restrictions on what people can and can't do on their own property! If building codes are supposed to save me from myself then no thanks, if the codes are meant to protect other people, why are these people on my property!!!

 

[IHI]

The fact still stands... Even thought the old houses sink a little or shift here and there, they're still standing, I could right now put my fist through my wall no problem, but try to put your hand through a house wall in an 80 yr old house.. You'll break your wrist or arm! My point still stands that if the structure is physically standing after 20 yrs for a garage that's good enough! In a house no, but its a garage! I hate all this new age **** and forward thinkers... I along with plenty other Americans wish things would revert back to about the 1950's when every willing man could find a job instantly, it was not ok to be gay, children were respectful, and good quality everything was made, all these people nowadays going hungry, and losing their homes, homosexuality and godlessness running a muck, and putting all kinds of restrictions on what people can and can't do on their own property! If building codes are supposed to save me from myself then no thanks, if the codes are meant to protect other people, why are these people on my property!!!

While I agree 200% with the rest of your views, after living the builder/remodeler since age of 14 helping gramps with his business and then starting my own, nobody can convince me the old way was ever better, we just dealt with too many issues due to "great idea at that time" that later turned into a debockle and hence all the code changes to make things...better. Sinking settleing houses?? that isn't normal, or right..but your okay with that LOL Personally I want a house that doesn't settle or sink because all that movement transfers into every other aspect of the home and a checklist of problems arrive from it...it's a domino effect.

Why not stop brushing your teeth? Cavemen didn't, they woke up and did their thing and went to bed, didn't want to be bothered by brushing their teeth, sure they were crooked, cracked, and missing some...but the remaining ones still worked. They sure saved on dental bills and teeth upkeep though..but I bet lived with a bunch of pain.....that exact principal can be compared to owning these older homes you have on a pedestal, believe me, I WISHED they were 1/100 as great as you think they are, but reality is, they're not.

Codes have been implemented because of all the "that's the way my daddy, uncle, grandpa, etc....did it"...I've made tens of thousands of dollars billing THE NEXT homeowner I'm working for to take 2-5 steps backwards to unass all the things somebodies daddy, uncle, grandpa, etc..thought they knew what they were doing, but didn't have a clue. I hated it because I allotted X amount of time to perform a job so I could get to our next customer, unearthing hack work caused delays on my part that trickled down to every customer there after (think having a doctor appointment at the end of the day, if each appointment before you takes 1-2 minutes longer than normal, all of a sudden your waiting for an extra hour since your the last guy) but it was also unexpected financial expense to the customer I was working for, thought on reno's I tell them you HAVE to budget at least 10% for unexpected...because nothing ever goes perfectly on a reno, especially when former homeowner was a hack, or let other hacks work on their house.

Settling building are not okay, to think your honestly are okay with that scares me, that's lunacy on a whole new level I've never heard of. Reminds me of a guy we did a resto on an old wrap around porch, he wanted us to build the 10' wide deck (from house towards yard) with 3" slope...WHAT?? he told me, "that's the way they used to build them"...I try not to laugh at customers, but I couldn't stop, told him, they built them level...but things have settled so much that is what your used to seeing on these old homes, but they weren't build falling down from the start.

 

[captaindiode]

Do what you want, but you could thicken the edges of the slab to act as a footing. You really should go below the frost line. And if you add some xps foam under the slab your shop will be warmer.

 

[bczygan]

I love all this feedback, and all the different ideas! As far as footings go, wouldn't that add a substantial amount to the cost? I have seen some of the hillbillies around here build the crappiest buildings, but they last for decades. So, I am completely unwilling to go over my $5k budget. So, I'm planning to have gravel laid on top of the ground and compacted then a 4" slab poured right on top of that then up with the framing finished with rib metal sheets on purlins no sheathing. Doesn't need to meet any codes just as long as its still standing in 20 yrs ill be happy.

OK you hillbilly...build your crappy building. No advice we give you will help. You've already decided.
I had a bunch of good practices to share, based on 4 generations of builders in my family, but it would be a waste of time...Your loss.

And I don't know why you are wasting your money on a concrete slab or gravel. Don't you hillbilly's live in dirt floor houses? Should be good enough for a barn/garage/shop...
Walls? why do you need them? Your stuff ain't worth stealing. Just some tin for a roof to keep the rain off. Most of your yard full of **** is gonna sit out in the rain rusting anyway...
Get a bunch of hay bales and make 4 piles. Get some wood beams from a barn that fell down...probably already have one. Make a frame and use some of the rusty metal roof panels from that fallen barn. Lap them and slope them so most of the rain runs off.
Don't worry about fastening things together. Just put some heavy things on top to hold it all down in light winds. If a tornado comes you can just collect all the parts back together and stack them up again. None of this should cost anything.
Save the $5K for beer!
You really haven't thought this through. Your spending way too much.

Your design goals should be to create a building that looks the same, both before and after, a tornado.

 

[IHI]

Do what you want, but you could thicken the edges of the slab to act as a footing. You really should go below the frost line. And if you add some xps foam under the slab your shop will be warmer.

That's what started this mess, I told him to at LEAST do some rat footings (we call them) monolithic technically, but that added too much cost and he has a $5K budget for a 24x30 complete structure; and sinking/settling buildings are fine, because technically they're still standing.

 

[j p smith]

How much is concrete there? I am getting ready to do 14' x 50' patio this winter and I have bids for concrete from 2000.00 to 3000.00, for a patio with a little turn down for the posts. I think you are being short sighted and would do well to step back and rethink some of the advice you are getting here. There are a lot of really sharp guys on here who have been through or seen just about anything that would make you go oh s t I can't believe they did that.

 

[JoeFin]

The fact still stands... Even thought the old houses sink a little or shift here and there, they're still standing!!!

Sinking won't be your first problem

Ever hold a cup upside down under water? The footing wall works the same way.

Years ago during the recession of the 80s when 15% of all tradesmen were unemployed due to some New Fangled Economics Theory called "Trickle Down Economics" I partnered with several other tradesmen in a Home Remodeling/Repair business. It was a lot better then an unemployment check

Came across the exact scenario you have - Slab with no footing

Guy hadn't even finished the 2800' sq ft 2 story garage/living quarters before the ground water had begun to undermine his slab. After a few good rains he had a small drainage running under the slab leaving voids between the slab and the ground.

 

[IHI]

the ground water had begun to undermine his slab. After a few good rains he had a small drainage running under the slab leaving voids between the slab and the ground.

I helped tear out a lot of concrete with gramps in my teenage yrs and I seen just how flawed the ole "compacted sand" for a base was. Once I had the authority to sway gramps decsions we went to rock base exclusively. Lil more money up front because we went in and dug grade down 8" and had to haul that dirt out, and then have loads of 3/4" or 1" clean brought in and we tamped in 4" lifts. Pain in the **** sometimes to grade but i'd just get it close and always ordered and extra half yard to account for the dips and such, but that little extra work and money will go a long ways because there is nothing that will capillary out under the concrete like compacted dirt and sand do....which was always the leading cause of why we'd get a call int he first place, un tensioned concrete with a washed out base equaled spider crack and big crack/heave city. That extra $800-1000/depending on job obviously up front...just saved them $5-10,000 later since they wont have any issues again.

Works especially well doing it that way with the approach to garage transition. My shed for example, in Iowa so all 4 seasons. 16x36 shed I poured footings under it, for the approach (which is a 16x16 covered area of the 36' length) I put in 12" of 3/4" clean, 1/2" rebar every 2'oc, and a 6" pour. In 4 yrs I've watched closely and it has not moved a bit whereas typical approaches heave 1-2" up during the winter mnths and crush aluminum clad brickmould around over head doors/man doors.

Spend a little now, save ALOT later....but the common man that don't do what we do, see what we see daily don't have a clue and fall back to the ole excuse of "that's the way my grandpa, uncle, etc...did it" which ultimately means, cheap and hacked to pieces LOL.

I always loved meeting customers for the first time and getting the "my dad, uncle, brother, etc....does construction and they said" and it was usually some outlandish **** LOL, I always asked, so why aren't they doing the job then? "oh, they're really busy and we didn't want to bother them"...uh huh, aint never heard this about every 3rd job One idiot wanted to use convoluted tubing (black plastic culvert) for sonotubes and argued that's what his friend told him to use and he does construction...after I explained how stupid of an idea it is and why it's the dumbest thing ever, they didn't bring too much more of their friends advice into the mix...which is almost always a way to say I talked to people even more clueless than me and we came up with this idea, but I'm going to blame it on a scape goat that isn't even here....ahh, the joys of dealing with the public to forge a living.

 

[bczygan]

Examples abound.
Here in Detroit there have been waves of population explosion and immigration. This caused building booms. Homes from the early 1900's, like my grandfather (A builder) built, were large, usually 2 flat. Steep roofs and porches on the front. His own home was similar to most but with many upgrades. A substantial construction, but with at least one practice done differently than we do today. The roof was frames with rafters and joists with way more span for their size than we use today. To accommodate that situation, roof slopes were at least 12/12 and up. This created large attic spaces. But it also meant that no stacking of roof coverings could be done. You ALWAYS stripped the old roof when re-roofing. and the board roof deck was a spaced board deck with large spaces between boards. A 2x4 was an actual 2x4, and lumber was stronger, but still...
I have run into many examples of swayback floors in homes built in the 1800's. They just spanned too far.
And garages here, even into the 1940's and 50's were built like you would like to. We have a city full of structures that have cracked slabs, tilting and sinking walls and especially swaybacked roofs.
Many of the hip roofed garages are especially prone to sway-backing. They have a limited ridge and that means hardly any rafter ties. And usually there are just a couple ceiling joists (Usually 2x4's) to tie the walls together. Most garages were built with ridge boards and when modern owners load the roof with 2 layers, the walls start bowing out.
Add to that, siding was boards that need painting and maintenance that wasn't kept up with, and the siding ran down to grade which was flat, allowing water to rot out the sill plate and bottom siding boards. No overhangs and poor maintenance allowed water into the roof at the rafter ends, rotting them and soaking wall studs. Shallow roof slopes allowed ice dams and wet roof boards.
The result is a temporary building. This was standard practice. We have learned that a few changes in the details of the design can make a building that will stand far longer and serve it's functions well. It costs more, but not that great a percentage, for the benefits received.

 

[bczygan]

So the solutions to a good building flow from these lessons.
First, water is your enemy. You want to shed it and get it as far from your building as possible.
Use as steep a roof slope as you can. I like 12/12 as a minimum. That is extreme for most people, and especially for a larger building, but I will never go under 5 and 12 unless it is a rubber deck. Shingles just shed water, so driven rain can get up under them. I use #30 felt rather than #15. Ice dams are a problem in places with snow. I use ice and water shield on all overhangs and cold spaces, and at least 3' up the roof from there above heated spaces. I also cover all roof slopes below 5 and 12. In high snow areas, nothing beats steep roof slopes and metal roofs.
Overhangs are important. They protect not just the top of the wall, but also the wall itself and openings for windows and doors. A generous overhang is a good thing to protect from driven rain.

This post is incomplete...

I will finish it later. What good practices have you used, and how have they worked out? What problems have you seen in existing construction, and how do you avoid those errors in your work?

Bill

 

[Sureshot]

So the solutions to a good building flow from these lessons.
First, water is your enemy. You want to shed it and get it as far from your building as possible.
Use as steep a roof slope as you can. I like 12/12 as a minimum. That is extreme for most people, and especially for a larger building, but I will never go under 5 and 12 unless it is a rubber deck. Shingles just shed water, so driven rain can get up under them. I use #30 felt rather than #15. Ice dams are a problem in places with snow. I use ice and water shield on all overhangs and cold spaces, and at least 3' up the roof from there above heated spaces. I also cover all roof slopes below 5 and 12. In high snow areas, nothing beats steep roof slopes and metal roofs.
Overhangs are important. They protect not just the top of the wall, but also the wall itself and openings for windows and doors. A generous overhang is a good thing to protect from driven rain.

This post is incomplete...

I will finish it later. What good practices have you used, and how have they worked out? What problems have you seen in existing construction, and how do you avoid those errors in your work?

Bill

Lets keep it real. The op needs some common sense advice and IHI is giving it too him. The footing may not be the best shortcut spot.

 

[wrenchguy]

Like I said, your the typical brainwashed American and typical of the customers all us professional, not the hack you wanna hire with a pick-up and a hammer because he'll do your job for a 12 pack and a $100, are faced with dealing with initially. I know nothing I say will change your mind, you have it all figured out already...I'm hoping by exposing how ridiculous your thought train is it will make maybe one other person borderline goofy, smack his forehead and be like duh, I wanna be fragile, but will now see where to spend the money and where to cut back..."your grandpa's house"...guess what, it's all these older homes that much has been learned and why new codes/methods are implemented....guess what, even today using stick framed roof's, we STILL HAVE TO USE JOIST HANGERS and hurricane ties, why...stronger/safer...weird how that works, what does stronger and safer=longevity....ask me about your grandpa's era houses that the rafters are cracked/broken, ask me about your grandpa's era homes that have additional braces scabbed in because they are failing and roof is sagging. Ask me about your grandpa's era foundations that are shifting/cracked and causing moldy/musty basements, or how great his old single pane wood windows are, etc...

Heck, why not wire your shop up with some knob and tube, might be able to craiglist that pretty cheap and find some old speaker wire in dumpster to run for your outlets.


Plainly put, the foundation is THE most important part of the build, the foundation is the most important part of anything in life, it's a stable base upon which you build...****** base, your building a house of cards like I said because it's already on borrowed time. We're talking a few hundred bucks for a few more yrds of concrete to even do a halfassed rat footing with steel in it, and your crying about that and trying to compare it to the old crumbling structures that require tons of upkeep from the 1800's to keep it standing so you can look at it today and use it as an example?? LMFAO. wake up and come out and play in the real world, it's a whole lot different than looking at things from your car doing 55mph down the road, real life blows holes in everything you've tried to say, I know...I lived repairing it for 25yrs

+1, well said. wrenchguy.

 

[Falcon67]

We've owned two houses built in the 1920s, three built new including this one built in 2001. I'll take current code every time, thanks. "They don't build 'em like they used to" for a reason, and they are all good reasons.

As for your foundation, I did footers because I didn't want any future problems if I could avoid it. It wasn't a big deal to dig out a 12x12 footer around the perimeter and some beams down and across. Didn't add much cost to the slab. We ran 1/2" bar in the footer and beams and 3/8 bar 18" OC. We have expansive clay soil here and we laid the concrete right down on it. In two years from heat, snow, drought and heavy rain I have been watching the shrinkage cracks. They haven't changed one bit since day 60 of the slab cure, so I call it time and effort well spent. If you are going to keep this place a while, consider expending the effort. I had a 4" slab on grade no footer 20x24 shop the last time, same town, same soil conditions - I will not do that again. The foundation is a big part of the price, it makes no sense to skimp there. If you want to save a few $, then put your studs 24" OC and size your rafters to use a whole board with a minimal cut. I went with a 5 pitch because a 14' 2x6 fit the run with small cuts on both ends and no waste.

 

[tehach]

GJ needs a forum specifically for discussions of this type. Classics such as "I'm building a hillbilly garage with no foundation", "Comment on the truss chords I cut to to install my homemade lift", "I am booger-welding structural steel with a battery charger and jumper cables", and the not-to-be-overlooked "I'm digging an auto service pit in my garage with a shovel" deserve their own special place of respect.

Kind of like a hall of infamity.

On topic, the ill-advised garage without a foundation has already been derided in a manner suitable to its misguided approach. It is interesting though, the "it's only my life put in jeopardy by my foolhardy construction technique" excuse requires the "structure" be forever owned by the creator with no heirs, guests, or family members allowed in order to remain valid.




One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license. --PJO

 

[Kevin C]

I read a the OP rant on going back to the 50's... Advice and help retracted.

Sorry, I cant support that.

 

[Sureshot]

GJ needs a forum specifically for discussions of this type. Classics such as "I'm building a hillbilly garage with no foundation", "Comment on the truss chords I cut to to install my homemade lift", "I am booger-welding structural steel with a battery charger and jumper cables", and the not-to-be-overlooked "I'm digging an auto service pit in my garage with a shovel" deserve their own special place of respect.

Kind of like a hall of infamity.

On topic, the ill-advised garage without a foundation has already been derided in a manner suitable to its misguided approach. It is interesting though, the "it's only my life put in jeopardy by my foolhardy construction technique" excuse requires the "structure" be forever owned by the creator with no heirs, guests, or family members allowed in order to remain valid.




One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license. --PJO

Lots of people with different resources, abilities, and situations. No one way is correct. If the op is sitting on granite or bedrock of some sort he can get away without the foundation. In a swamp not so much. Lots of code and rules is follow on to one engineer after the next trying to leave his mark or one up the previous guy to justify his job. Some is from disasters that shouldn't but will be repeated. That is a major problem for many bureaucracies. Common sense left the room long ago, we need it back.

I would put a huge wager that our most talented are in humble shops and the Garagmahal full of SO and unimaginable expense to the average Joe see the least real work and creativity.

Fine line between hillbilly hack and getting it done with what you got.

 

[Sureshot]

Here is a great site with tons of calculators for all sorts of building projects.


http://www.blocklayer.com/Default.aspx

 

[Bdaddy]

Ok, so I totally agree that rules and regulations have gotten totally out of hand. Building codes are a little over the top. I understand wanting to cut corners, and needing to...not everyone is made of $$$....
Y'all are both right to a degree ... Anyhow the best advice in here is about having 12" x 12" trench with rebar around the perimeter of the slab, don't bother building ur shop without it!
The extra cost will only be approx $300 ... Take it out of ur door n window budget!

 

[jawnd393]

I admire your independence. I built a 24x28 garage almost entirely myself. I had a pro do the slab and 2 guys shingled my roof in about 5 hours for $200. Everything else was me. I think building codes pretty much just want good construction practice. I did a hip roof because I like the geometry of it and it didn't require siding up any gables. I have vinyl siding. There's a 4" ledge around the perimeter of the slab. With 10ft studs and double plates top and bottom, I have enough ceiling height for a lift. I have (2) 9x8 doors on the 24' end and a person door on the side

 

[HoosierMark]

I enjoyed reading this. As a real estate appraiser, I can see the train coming. Down the road an appraisal will be needed for a sale or refi and the building will appraise for minimum value. The cost will be nowhere close to the contributory value due to the questionable construction methods. Maybe his insurance agent will say something.

The OP appears to want others to confirm his unique construction methods. Then when problems occur, he can say "thats what the people on the forum said would work" . He does not want the best methods, just support for his. All you can say is good luck and hope it works out.

 

[bazzateer]

... I along with plenty other Americans wish things would revert back to about the 1950's when every willing man could find a job instantly, it was not ok to be gay, children were respectful, and good quality everything was made, all these people nowadays going hungry, and losing their homes, homosexuality and godlessness running a muck!!!

You're entitled to your opinions but this is a garage forum, not a bigot's podium.