Railroad Tie Retaining Wall

[southbayduramax]

I just purchased a fixer upper home and have been chipping away at a long list of projects. This one is something that I have zero experience in...

The existing asphalt driveway is being re done, and I would like to repair/replace (if necessary) the retaining wall on the left side as seen in the pics.

I have done a lot of reading on the Internet and discussed methods of repairing/replacing retaining walls with friends and this is a basic summary of what I've come up with:

1. Start over, completely
2. Dig out all dirt where wall is to stand
3. Ensure completely flat and level, then bed the railroad ties with gravel for drainage and line the interior sides of the ties with a landscaping fabric
4. Stake with rebar
5. Fill sand back in

Also, what is the best thing to line the other side of the driveway with before laying the new asphalt? It looks like the previous owner used 2x4's, is that a good idea?

Does anyone on here have experience doing work like this that can offer some insight, tips, or suggestions?





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[HSURDDY]

just my opinion, but I would remove the railroad ties and start fresh, using concrete or some type of precast landscape block designed for the purpose. Railway ties leech creosote and eventually rot. They are great for supporting rails, but not so great as a retaining wall.

 

[ozyborn]

As above, rip them out and start over with retaining wall block.

 

[Cyberbear]

In our area rail road tie retaining walls are built using a tractor with post hole drilling attachment. The holes are drilled 4 feet deep at tie length centers. The tie vertical ties are installed plumb with compacted earth around the base. Then additional ties are placed behind the vertical posts and back filled with soil. This is a simple but labor intensive way to build a simple and effective retaining wall.

 

[ForceFed70]

It's definitely a "rip it all out and start over" job.

I too think you should consider a concrete block retaining wall. An Allen block style wall is easy to DIY, lasts forever, and is reasonably inexpensive. Allen block is what I used when I needed to replace the old rail road tie retaining wall along my driveway.

If you want to get fancy you could go with a natural stone block retaining wall but that's typically not a DIY job and gets expensive.

 

[southbayduramax]

Thanks for all of your responses.

I originally thought that a concrete wall would be the way to go, but the entire property is lined with railroad ties and I was hoping to keep that theme alive.

Railroad ties are $20/each here and I need about 10 more. I figured $200 in materials, a few shovels and my neighbors bobcat could get the job done in a weekend.


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[southbayduramax]

It's definitely a "rip it all out and start over" job.



I too think you should consider a concrete block retaining wall. An Allen block style wall is easy to DIY, lasts forever, and is reasonably inexpensive. Allen block is what I used when I needed to replace the old rail road tie retaining wall along my driveway.



If you want to get fancy you could go with a natural stone block retaining wall but that's typically not a DIY job and gets expensive.

Do you mind me asking what the Allan Block wall cost you? I would love to do something like that, and hope to at some point. I am on a very strict budget right now; anything more than a few hundred dollars and the entire project will need to be put on hold.

I try to live by the phrase "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right" but money is tight and I would rather address the situation now before it gets worse and potentially have to come back to it in a few years, then neglect it further and allow it to get worse.

The old lady's car already spins the tires going up...



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[ForceFed70]

Well, in my location construction costs are very high, and it's in Canadian $$. I'll share the cost I incurred, but I suspect it'll be much cheaper for you. Likely 1/2 or less.

A standard sized allen block is 18" long and 8" high = 1sqft and around here costs about $7. Cap blocks are 12"long x 4" high and cost approx. $5 each.

I'd ask around at some of the local supply houses then do the math. There are corner blocks and 1/2 size blocks that you may need as well, but typically you don't need many of those and the bulk of the cost will be with the regular blocks and the top caps.

If the property is covered in them, they were probably all placed at around the same time and will all need to be replaced eventually. Now would be the time to select a different wall style.

 

[wasfuzz]

No matter if you use new or reuse timbers, you will need to pu in some dead man ( think rods back into the hillside on the horizontal)) You could use some geomesh fabric in between the timbers or make some type of flats going into the berm that attache to the timbers and are staked at the ends. If you do not you will be doing all over again at some point!

 

[southbayduramax]

No matter if you use new or reuse timbers, you will need to pu in some dead man ( think rods back into the hillside on the horizontal)) You could use some geomesh fabric in between the timbers or make some type of flats going into the berm that attache to the timbers and are staked at the ends. If you do not you will be doing all over again at some point!

Can you clarify this a bit for me?

Are you saying to use the geomesh fabric between each stacked timber? What do you mean by "make some type of flats"? Sorry for my confusion. Thank you for your input!


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[LXCam]

I've done a few of them 3-4 tier high. I drilled a 1-1/4" hole a couple foot in from the ends then used 3ft pieces of 3/4" galvanized rigid conduit to stake them into the ground and to each other alternating the laps as I went up in rows like a block wall. They dont last forever like block, but it's pretty cheap if you can find a deal on good ties.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

Can you clarify this a bit for me?

Are you saying to use the geomesh fabric between each stacked timber? What do you mean by "make some type of flats"? Sorry for my confusion. Thank you for your input!


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He is saying to lay some perpendicular to the wall going back into the hill. This will help prevent the wall from tilting over time.

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[southalabama]

My 2 cents.

Out lakehouse dad had shoreline dug out and we built a railroad tie retaining wall. The wall wasn't too high and we had plenty of tie backs or dead man.

The problem from our experience. They were used ties to begin with and it took a few years but they begin to rot from the center of the railroad tie out. Since we hammered rebar down through holes we had bored it's a mother to pull one out and replace even though it's rotting.

Some good advice above. It's a start over job in my opinion.

 

[laser3kw]

Railway ties leech creosote and eventually rot. They are great for supporting rails, but not so great as a retaining wall.

I have 10 year old railroad ties as parking barriers - sitting above ground.
The were rotten / useless 2 years ago.
I would venture a guess, if you use them, you will be doing the whole project again in less than ten years.
Pay me now or pay me later type deal.

 

[Know Wosad]

Research Vetiver "grass". I don't know your location so it may not apply. It's incredible stuff

 

[M-technik-3]

Don't expose your family to the toxins in the RR ties, that is why they are no longer sold on the open market.

 

[Todd.Brock]

This is what he means by deadman. I understand the budget- do what you have to do to get it shored up. Plan to give yourself 10 years or so. You may be in a spot to redo it with block. Hell- out may not even live there

 

[pstnbly]

Without "tiebacks" or "deadmen and cribbing" you are wasting your time.

 

[Steves32]

We had RR ties for a small retaining wall. Lasted about 10 years before it rotted out from the inside out. Block walls went in & all is well now.

 

[wssix99]

+ 1 on the deadmen. Here are some more pictures:

 

[laser3kw]

Don't expose your family to the toxins in the RR ties, that is why they are no longer sold on the open market.

I bought mine at Menards

railroad ties

I believe the newer versions are not the problem that the old creosote ones were. But an option is the actual landscape lumber that is treated to be used in such applications.
Or block wall.
don't forget the deadman(s)

 

[SteveCh]

I had to re-do a couple of RR tie walls I built myself. I did not install deadmen. I instead set each subsequent row of ties back a few inches from the row below, thinking that would be good enough to keep the wall good. I was very wrong. It took about five years, but the walls both began leaning outward. I had to dig out all the fill behind the walls, all the way down to base, and use my tractor to fix the lean. Then I installed deadmen; in my case, I used more RR ties as in some of the diagrams above. Then I moved the backfill into place. By the way, to make ports for the deaden in the wall, I used a chainsaw with an old chain [makes a real mess, the creosote, of the chain]. In some areas, I had to remove the railroad ties above the level where I wanted the deadmen and then replace them.

This time, it's been a dozen years and I cannot see any lean at all in my walls.

By the way, there are many stone retaining walls up in my area. Some are dry-stacked, some mortared. Many of those walls are also leaning out from the soil behind them. Same deal: you gotta have something to tie the walls back into the soil they are holding back or the wet/dry cycle of the soil will sooner or later cause the earth to push the wall outward.

It was tougher to dig out the backfill and repair my walls than it would've been had I done it right in the first place. My fault. This isn't your fault, of course, but there is no "quick fix." My sympathies.....

 

[southbayduramax]

Thank you everyone for your input. I am waiting to hear back on an estimate from a company that sells rock and concrete blocks, but I am assuming that due to my budget I will be using railroad ties. A local rail supply yard sells them in 3 different conditions. The condition 1 ties look nearly new.

Those RR tie illustrations are great, thank you for sharing those.


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[Jeff Ivers]

Just now saw this thread. I built a RR tie retaining wall about 35years age that is still standing and doing what it was designed to do. You must use deadmen as others have described. Your wall should be built to lean about 5 degrees towards what you are retaining. Be sure that you design in a way for water in the soil behind the wall to escape.

 

[theoldwizard1]

As above, rip them out and start over with retaining wall block.

It's definitely a "rip it all out and start over" job.

I too think you should consider a concrete block retaining wall.

Replace with a retaining block wall, NOT standard concrete block. Retaining block walls are stepped back into the hill and have pins or other mechanical means of locking them together, not just mortar.

The reason why most retaining walls is inadequate foundation and/or inadequate drainage. Both are key

If you really want to keep the RR ties, start by removing what is there. Remove the existing soil about the depth and width of 2 RR ties. Lay in 4-6" on compacted gravel. Then follow the directions below.

In our area rail road tie retaining walls are built using a tractor with post hole drilling attachment. The holes are drilled 4 feet deep at tie length centers. The tie vertical ties are installed plumb with compacted earth around the base. Then additional ties are placed behind the vertical posts ....

Back fill with gravel.

"Tie backs"/"deadman" will be required if your wall is ging to be more than 3-5 RR ties high

 

[theoldwizard1]

+ 1 on the deadmen. Here are some more pictures:

absolutely perfect !

 

[jeff_gates]

On our area it is a Pain in the AS... to get rid of rail road ties. I had to go to South San Jose to and paid an arm and a leg to get rig of them. Call the dump first to see if they will take them.

 

[laser3kw]

Call the dump first to see if they will take them.

or, like around here, just dump them behind some business or in a ditch along the highway......

 

[wasfuzz]

Sorry for the delay in answering about the deadman, I see several others have answered far better that I would have. Also check CL often find old block cheap or check with your local suppliers they often have old mismatched product cheap, one local manufacturer even has seconds ( color, etc). You might fix it temp and start collecting for next years project.

 

[finn]

My mother's uphill neighbor had a RR tie wall built without deadmen anchoring it.

That wall fell over every six or seven years for the entire forty years she lived in that house.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Thank you everyone for your input. I am waiting to hear back on an estimate from a company that sells rock and concrete blocks, but I am assuming that due to my budget I will be using railroad ties. A local rail supply yard sells them in 3 different conditions. The condition 1 ties look nearly new.

Those RR tie illustrations are great, thank you for sharing those.


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Using deadmans and some rebar (or something similar) to stake them together will help make a difference this time around. Add in some gravel behind and maybe even some tile along the back and bottom for drainage, you might some decent life from the RR ties.

Step-dad lined the driveway and built a small retaining wall with ties and the majority of them still look decent since they were put in during the early eighties. His 10x12 shed is sitting on a bed of gravel framed with RR ties still stand after being built in the same time period.

 

[McFarmer]

My folks used railroad ties for a retaining wall 50 years ago, the bushes are overgrown but the wall is fine.

They cut angled ties on the outside for braces. Buttresses I guess.

 

[HSURDDY]

My comments were based on having recently retired from 37 years in railroad operations... You might want to read this before using ties in a residential setting.. They're great for holding gauge in an railroad setting, particularly in areas with great temperature fluctuations, frost heaving, etc... They weren't designed to be around people, pets and plants... Illegal for public sale now in a lot of jurisdictions... Pressure treated timbers of the same dimensions are sold in lots of garden and home centres...

https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/creosote

 

[flat tire]

unless I am not looking at the picture right, I really don't see the need for a retaining wall.
remove the lower ties and push the dirt back up hill to form a nice slope

 

[pcmeiners]

"My folks used railroad ties for a retaining wall 50 years ago"
Same here, but railroad ties from 50 years ago are not the same a new ones. The new ties are cosmetically treated, the chemical only partially penetrates the wood, they last last about 10 years

 

[xtremek]

If you use RR ties, good drainage is a must.

 

[Kaizen]

unless I am not looking at the picture right, I really don't see the need for a retaining wall.
remove the lower ties and push the dirt back up hill to form a nice slope

I'm close to this opinion. The angle of that wall looks like its mostly to divert runoff not structural retaining.

My last 20 years has been fixing my pos fixer upper with no money so I understand what you are saying. imo if you are doing this to get the driveway redone i'd use your neighbors tractor and remove the dirt on the down side of whats there flat with the driveway. have the driveway done. then start work on block retaining wall. I did a 4 footer that really is holding back 4 feet of dirt. did it 1998 and have added/changed the layout a little over the years.
I think I pay 6 bucks or so a piece for a 16 inch block that is 50 pounds. do NOT get cheap ones. go to a stone supplier. you have to bury the first course on a bed of gravel. so for every 4 feet you need 6 to start. you could pull that wood and work on it all summer when you get some money. otherwise i'd leave whats there. don't waste money on wood.

 

[southbayduramax]

unless I am not looking at the picture right, I really don't see the need for a retaining wall.

remove the lower ties and push the dirt back up hill to form a nice slope

I was going to bring this up this morning, so thank you.

I drove around the neighborhood last night and saw that a lot of the neighbors with similar driveways do not have retaining walls, but have ivy growing on the hillside.

I do not necessarily think the wall will be very load bearing, but it would be nice to have a wall to keep the hillside from constantly encroaching on to the driveway. I only planned on going 2-3 RR ties high up to the brick planter. The dirt on the surface of the hillside is loose soil, but underneath is pretty hard, compact material.

All of that being said, am I overthinking this? I would rather not have to dig the side of the driveway once a week, especially because I work offshore for extended periods of time, and I know the old lady won't want to dig the driveway. I have already allocated the money to do this job, but if you guys have other ideas, or think it shouldn't be done let me know.

Here's some more pics






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[southbayduramax]

Also, I appreciate everyone's input. Thank you


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[theoldwizard1]

I think I pay 6 bucks or so a piece for a 16 inch block that is 50 pounds. do NOT get cheap ones. go to a stone supplier. you have to bury the first course on a bed of gravel. ... don't waste money on wood.

GREAT ADVICE from someone who has "been there, done that, got the T-shirt !"