Railroad ties

[Vicious Customs]

Okay, I need a reality check. I've been debating some options for updating the flooring in my pole barn, and I'm looking for opinions.

To start, I was fine with my dirt floor for quite some time, but I've got issues with mice and rabbits digging under the walls and coming up through the floors, and it's starting to bug me. It's more that dirt is getting under my sliding door, and that it's now much looser that it was than anything.

I think I've settled on a solution that won't break the bank, can be done over time, and should hold up to the use I'll put it through, but am always open to constructive criticism. I am under the impression that I can start at one end of the barn, dig down to the appropriate depth, and inlay railroad ties, staked throughout. This will allow me to do sections at a time as funds are available, give me some instant gratification, they are readily available, and it's something I can do myself. I also believe that I they are durable, and will hold up for some time. Considering that I don't have any underground wiring, or plumbing, I don't see an issue there. Lastly, I think it would look really cool once completed.

So, I'm open to thoughts on the matter, and any suggestions as to alternatives. I've given up on my caliche and soil cement options. It appears as though they won't hold up over time.

 

[Garage Flooring]

I have been in the home improvement industry my whole life. I grew up working in my grandfather's lumberyard. That is going to be a ton of work and rail road ties NEVER stay straight.

 

[chickenhauler]

Sounds like a lot of work, and a lot of RR ties. My grandfather built 2 garages and the floor was done hand mixing in a box, so for the most part, concrete is 1-3" thick. It lasted him his lifetime, and while there are cracks here and there, and some of the really thin places have deteriorated from salt carried in from tires, it's still a concrete floor. Even if you put it on thin, for a few hundred bucks, it's quicker than RR ties, and 100 times better than trying to work on dirt.

 

[slickgt1]

Yea I agree with Justin. This is going to be a **** ton of work.

it would look cool though. Staggered, even spaced ties. I don't think you will have a problem with them staying straight once they all lock against each other. And if a couple of them bow out, you can always pull it out and replace, or plane it. Plus, you can always shim the gaps to really lock it in place.

A lot of back breaking work though.

 

[Bronson]

If You ever drop anything smaller than a beer can, it will roll to the nearest crack and dissappear forever. A trip hazard for sure. A hell of a lot of work. Do You do any welding or cutting or ever have sparks, or open flames?........The fire would be visible for miles.

 

[paullie]

how about rock???

 

[Vicious Customs]

Outside of the work, I didn't really consider the rest, hence the reason for the post. I do weld, and didn't think twice about it. I had thought about had mixing concrete, and doing the same, but it seemed like it would be more intensive trying to get a good base in, then doing the work.

Good counsel guys. I really do appreciate it. Back to the drawing board. I rarely have all the cash on hand to have the floor poured by someone, and I avoid loans and credit at all costs.

 

[Vicious Customs]

how about rock???

I had thought about that, but I'm not sure how it would play with the existing issues. Really, I was looking at the size of the ties as getting me down into grade (the inside of the building is built up about 3"). I thought that it could be a decent separation so that it wasn't easy for something to get in by just digging at the walls. I guess I could like the outer edges, and backfill with gravel.

 

[Scott65]

You would want to use new ties that are uniform size and appearance. You could stagger the joints, level the top side, and. Spike them together through the side to maintain level. The prep work would be a real pain, but could yield a really cool floor.

Another consideration would be the coating used on the ties. There are still companies that make them using creosote which is great for landscaping, but create some other issues in a garage that I am not aware of. The last wall I built with new ties turned out great- very true and the wood will last for a long time. I will never build with used ties again, they are at the end of their life cycle and not worth what they cost. I would also use a good fine gravel base for leveling and drainage.

 

[D.J.]

People in my area sometime use crush runand then put a layer of limestone on top and then wet the top after using a motorized tamper / ******** and have been known to have a very strong base for later pouring concrete in the future.

 

[Thruxton]

If you had a way of crosscutting them into,, say, 6" sections with a very square cut you could then lay the cutoffs like tile, cut side up. Very similar to industrial flooring I have seen and worked on. Pack them in tight, sand the surface, fill the cracks with something (I have no idea what). Sounds like a piece of cake (that I would like to watch someone else tackle ).

 

[Vicious Customs]

I'm sure I could figure out the cross cutting, but it seems like it would be much more work. That said, it would look cool too. I'm going to have to think about it some more. I'm concerned about welding, but with it I can likely put some type of floor covering down (welding blanket or the like) to reduce my concern. The labor isn't a huge issue, I've busted my **** before, but is a consideration. Cost is the great oppressor. Spreading out the job is much easier on my wallet, but it doesn't make the decision easy.

 

[uhohjim]

You said that you don't often have the money all at one time to pour a concrete floor..........pour it in sections as you go........probably wouldn't be all that much more then laying down a fire hazard and since creosote is a known carcinogen I'm thinking health wise it's not too good for you..........Jim

after posting this I looked up what new ties cost on google................I think you're shooting yourself in the foot using RR ties.........new ones are in the range of 70to 90 dollars per.........unless your getting a deal or something concrete would be way cheaper..........

 

[dittle fart around]

If you had a way of crosscutting them into,, say, 6" sections with a very square cut you could then lay the cutoffs like tile, cut side up. Very similar to industrial flooring I have seen and worked on. Pack them in tight, sand the surface, fill the cracks with something (I have no idea what). Sounds like a piece of cake (that I would like to watch someone else tackle ).

The plant I worked at for Fisher Body had 6 inch thick end cuts of 4 x 6 on asphalt. It worked great for cushioning the floor and moving the tracks around. Just pry up the tile and reposition stuff.

 

[slickgt1]

Hey if you are on a budget, and can't do it all at once. Why not give dry pack cement and tile a shot. You can do it as you go, you will have a crazy nice floor. Material (sand / cement/ thinset / tile) can be had for cheap. Mix a pile up, throw down 6" compact it to about 4", lay tile on it, and let it set. Will be really strong. Look at my Garage renovation post. I did it this way in my garage. I did it over existing cement, but my parents back yard was done this way over dirt. No real way to get a cement truck into a back yard in the city.

 

[Vicious Customs]

Can you elaborate on the dry pack cement? I'm specifically curious about what mixture needs to be used under the tile. Sand, cement, and thinset in a 1:1:1 ratio? I have enough tile on hand that I could knock out half the barn. I've been perusing your thread, and haven't run across the info so far.

 

[green.bubbly]

I am not sure if you would be laying down on the floor to work on any vehicles but if you do, that creosote will do a job on your skin.

 

[mbatarga]

Please indicate you've ruled out RR ties! I wouldn't curse my biggest enemy with a task like you propose.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Depending on your location, some steel mills will let you have their scale or slag for nothing, just need to have someone haul it for you.

I'm going to do this for a building I'm using for storage.

 

[DeuceDude]

I don't post much (mainly 'cuz you guys cover the bases so well) But I had to chime in...

I don't know much, but one thing I do know, DONT USE STEEL SLAG UNDER ANYTHING!
Living in a steel town, you WILL be VERY SORRY!

Hope this saves just one life...

 

[Chaz]

I've seen the floor in a barn done with end grain up... It was beautiful AND durable. You'd be really good at sharpening chain saw chains by the time you were done!

 

[Omphaloskeptic]

Vicious Customs, since its the critter invasion that's got you hot for a better floor, how about doing some mitigation work along the outside wall first? What I suggest is that you do some 'Irish Engineer Work' with a pick and shovel along the outside wall of your pole barn. A ditch 10"-14" deep, fasten the short lengths your wall material (if metal siding or galvanized tin sheet if siding is wood) to your existing walls, back-fill with drain tile and gravel, and you've created a solid barrier against tunneling trespassers! Your building stays free of ground water, you've put in a barrier against the most persistent diggers, and now you can build your floor with whatever, whenever you get the time and money. Lot's of sweat equity up front with not too much cost and it solves your critter invasion problem right away. For your entry area, you can hand pour a threshold/apron with re-bar extensions for future piecemeal expansion. The buried metal siding/galvanized tin provides a form for future inside flooring material.

Caveat - "My advice is most always worth what you paid for it; sometimes not!"

 

[Vicious Customs]

I have ruled out using used, creosote soaked railroad ties. There are too many health hazards. I've been reading up on them, and its just not worth the risk. I have not ruled out some type of wood floor, but it's no longer at the top of my list.

As of right now, I'm highly interested in the hard pack tile floor. I've got quite a bit of left over tile from previous renovation projects just sitting in the garage looking for a home. More research needs to be done before I come to any conclusion.

I will be working on cars, bikes, trucks, and tractors in here (as I do today), so whatever I do needs to hold up to some minimal punishment. I have to say that the existing dirt floor has been very good at this, but it's getting broken up, and I really like the idea of something I can sweep and keep relatively clean.

Omphaloskeptic, you're advice is worth it, and the first time I've heard it. I never thought about going down outside to negate the critters, and I'm not sure why. I did that around the chicken coop to keep dogs and whatnot from digging under. Great idea, and not overly expensive.

Thanks for all the input, guys!

 

[slickgt1]

Can you elaborate on the dry pack cement? I'm specifically curious about what mixture needs to be used under the tile. Sand, cement, and thinset in a 1:1:1 ratio? I have enough tile on hand that I could knock out half the barn. I've been perusing your thread, and haven't run across the info so far.

Sure. Ok so this is not 1:1:1 at all. I did most of it by feel. So you need sand, I used a 4' x 4' sheet of masonite. I did this to figure out the first ratio, and then used it to be able to repeat based on how much you would fill on it.

So then I would mix about 6 - 8 bags of sand, to 1 bag of cement. This is dry pack, because you keep the mixture on the crumbly side. I would mix it with a shovel right next to the area I was about to work on. You put in enough water to make the mixture slightly wet, almost like the consistency crumbly moist cake. Dump it in to a huge pile in a corner, and spread it out with a straight edge, screed whatever, leave it high. Compacting it with a straight edge, screed, whatever you have, I used a huge float. If you get below your level, add more and compact again. Once that is to your liking, take out your trowel, thinset, tile, and lay it right on top of this cement. Rubber mallet to get it in tight. Proceed to next tile. Clean out thinset from joints. I used a utility knife for this. Use a level, make sure that your tile is level with the next. If not pull it up, add cement mix, re-thinset, and set it again.

The dry pack mixture will wick moisture out of whatever it gets, so if you didn't get to use it all up one shot, spread it out low somewhere. I dropped the ball on this in one section, thinking it wouldn't harden. Holy **** did it harden. Had to whip out the Hilti chisel to get it off.

The biggest ***** of it was the amount of sand I had to bring in. Then mixing it. Then mixing thinset. Weekend was the biggest progress. I was able to quadruple the size of the mud job, and lay over 100sq ft of tile. Don't bother with the tiles that you have to trim, do those last. Plus you will get to see those spots, and check how hard it gets, even without tile.

Make sure when you lay the mud job, you don't do too much that you can't reach all of it to place tile on it. I mean you can always do it after the mud job hardens a bit, but my friend said that I should avoid that as much as possible. 4' deep was about the max reach for me to lay tile. Put a wood plank, or your screed under you knees so that you don't shift the mud job.

When packing the mud job, if you see that it is getting to flaky, and seems to come up with your screed/float, put some water in your hand and sprinkle the surface.

I'm about to update my So Can Your Floor Do This thread. Have a pic of my 5000lb BMW x5 jacked up entire side, one floor hack, with the jacks' wheels on the edges of the tiles. Really durable result.

p.s. don't forget most important, thinset the floor, and back butter your tile. You don't want any voids.

 

[burleymike]

Our local ready mix plant sells "concrete mix" which is sand and aggregate pre mixed, it is the same price as a yard of sand or gravel. I was thinking about doing the rest of the barn using this stuff. I would do it a little at a time, all I have to do is add cement and and the mix to my mixer and dump it. With my bad back I would only attempt to do a 4'x4' section a day. It won't look nice like a solid slab but it is better than dirt.

If I was not so far from the other ready mix plant I could use their little trailer that has a tub on it that holds 1 yard. They guy said about 6 miles is as far as I would want to haul it before the mix settles too much.

 

[nateplumb]

I have poured quite a bit by hand at my place porch, repairs in driveway, reinforced the block walls in basement etc. Hell today we poured 120+ bags by hand at a factory we work at around some trench drains etc

My point is it can be done. Get on craigslist find a cheap mixer. When you get bag mixI can usually get a better deal at little hardware stores if I buy a whole skid and take the skid back. If you put a skid on your truck and position the mixer right you will be surprised how quick you can bust out a skid. If your dirt is hard dry and compacted a 3" floor will last a long time with normal loads. I have dug at more than 1 factory with 3" of concrete and daily forktruck traffic But they had dirt that was harder than hammered cat terds. On the flipside if your subbase is **** than 8" of concrete with no rebar or mesh won't last.

 

[Vicious Customs]

Thanks for the input Nateplumb. I've thought of this a few times, but I had heard many times that it won't last. Actually, through now every option has it's supporters and it's dissenters.

I'm at an impasse at the moment, as I'm still not sure what to do. If I'm already buying the material to do concrete, whether it be soil cement, hard pack and tile, or something else, why not go ahead and mix it, pour it, and do it up?

Decisions, decisions!

 

[Thruxton]

Thanks for the input Nateplumb. I've thought of this a few times, but I had heard many times that it won't last. Actually, through now every option has it's supporters and it's dissenters.

I'm at an impasse at the moment, as I'm still not sure what to do. If I'm already buying the material to do concrete, whether it be soil cement, hard pack and tile, or something else, why not go ahead and mix it, pour it, and do it up?

Decisions, decisions!

I think that's the right question, and I think you'll figure out the answer pretty quickly!

 

[Kevin54]

I'd forget the wood floor. Gravel or crushed limestone would be cheaper. Put some 3/4" down level it, tamp it all in, then go over it with fine, tamp it all in. You can rent a plate compactor to do that.

Or buy a cement mixer off of CL or buy one new, order up a load of sand and gravel mix, get some form boards, and start pouring your own.

Or for the cheap, look at some nurseries and ask where they get the large pieces of landscape fabric they put down that people walk on.

Anything but RR ties.

 

[JimVonBaden]

My BIL has a company that crushes old concrete. He says that it works well as base material for a variety of things and is cheap. He has sold it to many who use it tobuild up the ground for garage and industrial concrete pad installation, and even for use as underlayment (wrong term?) for driveways using stone or brick. I am going to use it for my parking pad in front, and for my patio in the rear.

Jim

 

[Vicious Customs]

I'm, at this point, leaning toward working on the base, then going back and pouring. I'll do it pickup load by pickup load. It's all work, but I can handle it.

Again, thanks for all of the input. I think it's set this old dog straight.