Raising the ceiling

[isb cornbinder]

My shop/garage has a ten foot ceiling. I will not be allowed to raise the roof because I am at the maximum outside height measured to the highest point of the roof.
When I built the garage in 1990, having a 10 foot ceiling was all I would ever need. Now 28 years later, I want to install a four post car lift to store my 1940 Ford. These old Fords are taller. I have taken a few measurements and there will be an uncomfortable smallish space left under the lift with the Ford close to the ceiling.

I am under the impression that special certified trusses are available that allow a ceiling height to be raised without changing the outside appearance of the building. I have not made any serious inquiries yet.
What I was hoping could be done, is to install the new trusses next to the original trusses and after fastening at the appropriate places, the original trusses will be cut back to match the dimensions of the newer units.
I would like to change the ceiling height only on the north 16 feet of the shop.
Has anyone here had experience with this modification? Are there any cautions and issues I should know about, now? I will be having an insured contractor do the work.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

The only concern is how to get them in there. I can see half your roof come down so the trusses could be slid into place. Otherwise I cannot see a way to install them in one piece. I guess the existing truss spacing might come into play. Gonna be tight. But worth the effort once finished. Good luck.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

Like he said, the trick would be getting the new trusses installed without having to tear the roof off and start over.

How close is uncomfortably close between the top of the car and the ceiling? You do have to allow enough room for the lift to raise up past the top stop and then sit back down on it. Also, you need to determine if that top stop is in the right place to get the maximum height you desire.

I've had cars on the lift in my garage where there was less than an inch clearance when lifted up past that top stop, but as long as it didn't actually touch it really didn't matter.

 

[Wolfman6]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

I think you would be better off installing rafters and then cutting out the trusses. Only you can tell if the rafters can be installed without removing the roof.

 

[ace10]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

Firstly: You need a professional engineer. If the cost of hiring one scares you, don't even think about doing this project.

I've modified trusses. It's a lot of work. And didn't even involve messing with the bottom chord.

Depending on the truss spacing, roof pitch, roof design, size of overhangs and size of garage door opening, you might be able to use something like a parallel chord scissor truss:

If the stars align, you may be able to get these trusses into the garage and slip them up between the existing trusses on to the top plates. Maybe. And then sister them on to the existing trusses.

Next question would be how to deal with carrying the roof load on overhangs. The engineer would need to design that part.

Good luck. This is a BIG job.

 

[meboatermike]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

I know you cannot go higher, but would it be easier to have the existing roof removed and a new roof put on that allows for a higher ceiling? Engineering would be involved but you would not have to fight to get the new roof trusses or rafters in around what you already have in place.

Or is there any chance you could go for a variance in the height restriction?

 

[isb cornbinder]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

I have some questions. Monday, I am going to visit the truss factory and ask for their solution.
Thanks for the replies. I have more thigs to think and ask about.

 

[isb cornbinder]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

I was given the name of a contractor yesterday. He is coming over on Sunday take a look.
This is a good start. This contractor understood what I want to do. He said this type of renovation is something he is familiar with.
After the ceiling is raised. I will be in the market for a four post hoist. I have a good idea of what I am looking for. My first choice will be MADE IN NORTH AMERICA. BP is not made here and I may have t look elsewhere.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

I think about the only way to get the trusses in there with minimal "damage" to the existing roof would be to tear off the fasica one side and the entire roof on the other side. Leaving the sheathing up and on one side should hold everything while you slide the new trusses n place from the open side.

 

[isb cornbinder]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

I think, I will trust the contractor to figure it out.

 

[Mr. Foully]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

Have you really exhausted the zoning variance process in your town? Raising the roof would be a walk in the park compared to swapping trusses. In the places where I've lived, if you can get a couple neighbors to sign off on your new roof height and present a coherent argument to the town board, you're good.

 

[ace10]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

If the contractor suggests modifying the existing trusses in ANY way, and he doesn't want to work from stamped drawings.... run, don't walk away.

$0.02

 

[06 DIESEL]

If the contractor and truss manufacturer get together they will engineer a "repair" to change the type of truss that you have to make it work for you. My parents had their upper level of the garage switched from a standard truss to a scissor truss to vault the ceiling in the new party loft. The party loft is 36x40 clear span and they were able to engineer a repair to make it carry the load required.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

I think, I will trust the contractor to figure it out.

C'mon, where's the fun in that ? No seriously, that is probably not something for the faint of heart. It's probably going to take some *** busting and elbow grease to slide those trusses in place.

Have you considered making the garage one bay bigger with new taller trusses ?


One other thing I've been meaning to ask you, your avatar ? project or just a cool picture ?

 

[LX-Markham]

If the contractor and truss manufacturer get together they will engineer a "repair" to change the type of truss that you have to make it work for you.

It can be done. And it can be done in place.

We installed some steel framing, sistered new rafters to the existing trusses, and cut out the bottom chord and web diagonal to make a cathedral ceiling. That left plenty of room in the middle for a single car in the middle of a double-wide hoist.

 

[isb cornbinder]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

Have you really exhausted the zoning variance process in your town? Raising the roof would be a walk in the park compared to swapping trusses. In the places where I've lived, if you can get a couple neighbors to sign off on your new roof height and present a coherent argument to the town board, you're good.

C'mon, where's the fun in that ? No seriously, that is probably not something for the faint of heart. It's probably going to take some *** busting and elbow grease to slide those trusses in place.

Have you considered making the garage one bay bigger with new taller trusses ?

The outside dimensions of the garage are at the maximum allowed. The board of variance permit to build this shop does not allow for any external changes. The variance gave me more than double the floor area of the 1990 bylaw.
I told the contractor what I want done to the ceiling. He has done this renovation before. I told the contractor that I want him to carry insurance. The contractor understands I want any changes to be inspected and built with engineered trusses.

One other thing I've been meaning to ask you, your avatar ? project or just a cool picture ?

The avatar is a real truck cab I bought about 10 years ago. I have it in dry storage and it is a future project. I started a thread on this project truck called "cornbinder crewcab."
I have collected most of the build components for this build. The engine is a Cummins 5.9, 24 valve, the transmission is an NVG 4500 with an NVG 241dld transfercase. The axles are DANA 60 with disc brakes. I bought a proper IHC factory built frame with enough length to accommodate the crewcab and an 8 foot box. My daughter and I have another IHC project in the works. This one is a 1952 IHC regular cab short-box. We have DANA 44 axles, Cummins 4bta/automatic/transfercase for this build.
It is all very complicated and I have receipts for everything.

 

[isb cornbinder]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

I think you would be better off installing rafters and then cutting out the trusses. Only you can tell if the rafters can be installed without removing the roof.

I have to agree with you. I am not a carpenter. I will know better after a visit with a contractor tomorrow. This guy comes highly recommended. I expect him to carry insurance for himself and any employees.
I want permits and engineering for everything. Any external changes will violate the original 1990 board of variance permit/agreement. There will be consequences for violations.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Re: Raisint the ceiling

The avatar is a real truck cab I bought about 10 years ago. I have it in dry storage and it is a future project. I started a thread on this project truck called "cornbinder crewcab."
I have collected most of the build components for this build. The engine is a Cummins 5.9, 24 valve, the transmission is an NVG 4500 with an NVG 241dld transfercase. The axles are DANA 60 with disc brakes. I bought a proper IHC factory built frame with enough length to accommodate the crewcab and an 8 foot box. My daughter and I have another IHC project in the works. This one is a 1952 IHC regular cab short-box. We have DANA 44 axles, Cummins 4bta/automatic/transfercase for this build.
It is all very complicated and I have receipts for everything.

Thanks, I will have to find that thread and check it out.

 

[NUTTSGT]

It can be done. And it can be done in place.

A round of applause for you sir, that's awesome.

 

[kbs2244]

Keep us informed on how he does it.
I like the conversion to rafters idea, but I am concerned about the lack of something to keep the walls from spreading.

 

[isb cornbinder]

The contractor was to have been at my shop just after lunch. Lunch here is generally held at noon. I called the contractor at 13:00h and he said he was coming right over after he talked to his wife. After another 90 minutes I called the contractor again and was sent to voice mail. Unless this guy arrives with a believable excuse and is $hitting Loonies I will not be considering him for the job. The time right now is 15:45h
This is not starting off very well, me thinks.
I have a friend and fellow Old IHC owner/driver living close by. I called him about my idea. He has his Red Seal carpenter certification and is in the renovation business. We talked and agreed on everything. I want the job permitted from the city and I want engineered trusses. I want him to be the primary contractor and have insurance. I also want the finished job to be inspected and have city approval. This goes well with the insurance company if there is a claim in the future.
My friend told me engineered and certified trusses are available in just about any configuration. More complication is only more money.
So, the renovation will be delayed for a week or two, I am OK with this. I will have more time to clear the north end of the shop.
For me, the longer term gain is well worth the short term PITA.

 

[isb cornbinder]

https://www.babco.ca/BendPak-HD-7P
This is the four post lift I will likely order. https://www.babco.ca/ is the local dealer. They offer a delivery and installation service. I will be using this service.

 

[isb cornbinder]

A contractor stopped by the shop this afternoon to look at the raise the ceiling proposal. . I know and trust this guy. His numbers and ideas for getting the job done make sense, to me. While not an inexpensive modification, I did think the estimate was close to what I expected pay. The estimated build time is 6 days. The new trusses will be installed next to the existing trusses, from inside the shop. The new trusses will be fastened to the existing trusses then the "offending" old wood will be cut away.
It will not be necessary to disturb the roof. The maximum gain in height will be from 24 to 48 inches. because ot the pitch of the roof.
The renovation and the four-post lift will total about $15,000. The outside appearance of the garage will not change.

 

[75gmck25]

The (original) framing of my 1940 garage does not have any boards going across at ceiling level. The cross bracing, to stop any spreading of the roof, is about 2/3rds of the way up on the structure, and they used very wide boards - maybe about a 1"x10". I assume you could do the same to reinforce this structure after you raised the ceiling.

Bruce

 

[isb cornbinder]

The contractor suggested, and I agree with him, we should use a certified truss company. These truss companies have engineered product. The city will require this.
I cannot skip the details because the city will not pass the final. I cannot try and sneak something in and skip the city permit and inspection. I have neighbours who do not know how to mind their own business.

Are we having fun yet?

 

[isb cornbinder]

I spent most of the yesterday in the garage. I was measuring as much as I could for the advantage gains the $10,000 plus renovation would give me. The contractor suggested that I make sure I am comfortable with the small amount of gain I will be getting for the money I will be spending. The contractor is a neighbour and a friend. He said he is happy to take my money, but he is advising against the cost to advantage benefit.
My final thoughts on this project are this. The $10,000 cost of the renovation is not money that is recoverable. While I may buy a BendPac hoist at some point, it is important to know these hoists, when used, seldon resell for more than 50% of the new price. I like the idea of being able to raise a vehicle so I can roll under that vehicle for service and a good-look around.
I can buy a very good Wells Cargo Car Hauler for about the price of the renovation. At some time in the future, the trailer can be sold and most, if not all, of the original cost recovered. This will depend on the best deal I can make at the time of purchace. I have a friend with a big property. He is renting out storage space for trailer off-season parking. HIs security is very good. So, no reno.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Regarding the auto hauler.
In the past I've bought 2 different deluxe model auto haulers to aid in moving. Problem both times was prospective buyers kept saying for my price they can buy brand new, not used. 99% of the people will compare the cheapest trailer out there to a deluxe model.

My trailers had 5200lb torsion axles, radial tires, LED lights, alloy wheels etc. They would compare to a new trailer with leaf springs, bias ply tires, 3500lb axles etc.

If you plan on reselling the trailer after using it for storage I'd recommend a cheaper trailer. Will most likely sell faster.

 

[isb cornbinder]

good advice

 

[Falcon67]

Trailers do depreciate. We bought our 2009 24' box for X in 2012 which was maybe $3000 off new. Sold it in late 2016 for the same X we paid for it.

 

[isb cornbinder]

I have been very lucky with the buy and sell trailer thingee. I am over-due for a lose. If I allow for some of the cost of rental space and deduct that from the resell price, I would have to pay someone to take the trailer before I am in the red column.
I have had a new Wells Car Hauler since 2005. I bought it for $5500 from a loser. I have more than two 1952-3 International Harvester trucks in pieces in the Wells and a rare IHC crewcab of that vintage.
There are two Ford Flathead V8 engines in the Wells. I may sell the Flatties.

 

[Orionrising]

40 foot shipping containers are cheap....

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[isb cornbinder]

Yes they are. NIMBY is the rule. City by bylaw here do not allow containers in residential. Delivery is expensive. The container will block my drive through carport. Pickup is expensive, when it has to. Poor resale is a problem, for me. I am allowed to has licensed and insured trailer. I have a front hitch on my Ram 2500 for easy trailer placement.
I have not given up on a 4 post hoist. There could be as much as 60 inches of free space available.
A 4 post hoist Bendpac, delivered and Assembled is just over $4k, plus tax.