Random Thoughts on Floor Decision...

[Matt M PA]

While a few did respond to the thread about seeing a epoxy floor after some use...it's still not the response I had hoped.

I am needing to "pull the trigger" right away on a floor "system". Obviously, on-line reviews of products come down to "it *****"..or... ."it's great"....and really nothing in the middle. I have read good and bad about all the "consumer" brand stuff, even U Coat It has reviews at both ends of the spectrum. Plus, while the makers that post here seem to have awesome products...I simply cannot get any info about how these products last. Every makers is going to extole the virtues of their product....so they're not going to be unbiased either.

Here are my thoughts. It seems that (consumer DIY grade) whether it's H&C, Rustoleum, Quikrete, etc....it;s all the same stuff in a different box. I find it hard to beleive that all these companies make their own product. I contacted a few of these companies and they say (in Behr's case) that 2-3 years is the lifespan of their product...when correctly installed. Some others gave 3-4 years. Plus, in each case...Tech Support gave different installation instructions than were on the instructions. From Tech Support, it was a much more thorough installation, tighter temperatures, etc.

My understanding was that my floor is new...was sanded down...and should be the perfect canvas for a floor coating. Not so according to the makers. According to one...two acid washes were required to open the pores of the slab.

All I am trying to do is make the best decision. I'm not afraid of the work...I just can't see going through all that if indeed it won't hold up.

Plus...when one compares the cost....for my 32x26 it would be something like $300 for store bought kits....but in some cases well over $1000 for the "good" stuff. I have a real problem with spending that kind of money...and having an issue that the maker ignores....because we all know that they will use the loophole of "incorrect application". Moreover, the aggravation of starting over.

I am leaning...though not convinced 100% yet of using VCT. If one breaks....replace it. At .68 a foot...seems downright cheap to me...but I'm not sure that's the "thing".

For wha it's worth...

 

[hansen1]

Matt, like you, I have tried to research to understand how various floor coatings will hold up over time. I had a system installed in my house garage 5 years ago. Since this was my first coating and many of my friend who did it themselves without much success, I had the coating installed by a company offering a 10 year warranty. We followed their recommendations on how long to let it dry before we started using it. It still lifted the top clear coat. They determined that the initial install temperature was to close to the low side. They had to grind the coating off and reinstall. It has help up great since then.

While my current garage is holding up to normal vehicle traffic, I question the reliability to building things (wood, steel), vehicle maintenance, welding, etc. I had asked around to find what various coatings due when subjected to welding splatters, etc. Didn't really get a good feel on how these coatings will hold up long term to what I determine to be normal garage usage.

While cost is always a factor, I would hate to spend any money on a system that looks bad in a few years. I would like to have a coating since it does look much better and is easier to maintain. My floor is not poured yet and I am willing to do whatever prep is necessary if I knew it would hold up long term, otherwise I will just go without.

 

[Matt M PA]

hansen1....I too really like the look of the speckly coatings...but using part of this garage for daily drivers...and another part for detailing and restoration work...I'm going to really be annoyed if the tires pull it off.

As I am sure I have written before...my brother in law used Behr's Concrete Stain...on an older floor that he washed with purple power and put down. He says it has worn like iron...even drid body filler comes off with a hammer! That's indeed a glowing endorsement as he uses his garage for everything. Plus, you can just touch up a part of the floor should it wear. Problem is....I don;t know if I can put flecks in, etc. I also assume that a clear over top would not be a good idea for later touch-up.

The fact that it's a "stain" interests me as it would penetrate the surface not simply lay on top....surely would be more durable against tire pull, etc

 

[04 Navi]

hansen1....I too really like the look of the speckly coatings...but using part of this garage for daily drivers...and another part for detailing and restoration work...I'm going to really be annoyed if the tires pull it off.

As I am sure I have written before...my brother in law used Behr's Concrete Stain...on an older floor that he washed with purple power and put down. He says it has worn like iron...even drid body filler comes off with a hammer! That's indeed a glowing endorsement as he uses his garage for everything. Plus, you can just touch up a part of the floor should it wear. Problem is....I don;t know if I can put flecks in, etc. I also assume that a clear over top would not be a good idea for later touch-up.

The fact that it's a "stain" interests me as it would penetrate the surface not simply lay on top....surely would be more durable against tire pull, etc

Think of it like this. It's only money.

There are pros and cons to everything, and the informational requirements that you are asking are probably beyond the "why bother" level for some floor guys on this site. Just as you said in your first post , that if the floor failed, the manufacturers would blame you for installation problems. Well, aren't you or wouldn't you blame them? Can you see why you are not getting the responses that you want? You are what they would call a high risk customer. Very tough to satisfy.

So my advice to you is that if you can afford a $1000.00 then do it. If your budget is just $300.00 then do that, and be done with it. As for your brother-in-law. Well of course, body filler and what not will stick. The reason is the cement is not sealed. By the way, it would stick to cement even without the stain and you cannot put flakes in stain, because the flakes would just lay on the top and the stain would penetrate.

As for my floor. I've had both water based and solids. No comparison.

 

[Matt M PA]

All I have hoped for is a legitimate "expectation" of how the floor will hold up. Believe me...it's not all about the money. The garage in which my 72 Plymouth and 2000 Viper park has the Sport Court tiles. For that floor...they are perfect.

The point made about my Brother in law was that the stain he used has held up exceptionally well. The point was that body filler was knocked off with a hammer and the stain remained on the floor.

I have seen floors done with Rustoleum's Home Depot stuff that looked great...and I have seen the high solids stuff that did not. I know alot of this has to do with preparation too.

The water based versus solvents or solids thing is interesting to me as well. Most of today's cars are painted with water based paint...yet the paint is not simply falling off the car. As I understand it...the water based products are also less prone to yellowing. While I'd certainly agree that solids should be better..I am starting to beleive that none of these products have been around long enough to really get a "real world" type of history.

The reason I titled this thread that way I did was to pass along my random thoughts in the hopes that someone else would have some input.

 

['the epoxy floor guy']

A couple things to maybe 'aid' in your decision.

#1 Repairs. Let's face it even the most bullet proof floor can and will get damaged sometime. When it does what does that mean for the entire floor.

VCT - A damaged tile 'can' be replaced. If the damage happens more than a few years later, chances are you will not be able to find the Exact same tile. Even if you save tiles from the installation over just a year or two the tiles will get hard and brittle. Storing the tiles until you need them, IF you can remember where you put them is trouble. Then it takes some time for the tile to 'wear in' to match the old ones.

Snap together floor tiles - Damaged tiles may be replaced. I don't have a lot of experience here but looks as though this may be straight forward enough.

100% Solids Epoxy - Can be repaired - MUST save back 'A' and 'B' material to use in case of problem. ALSO you must keep BOTH clear and Color. The one crazy thing about epoxy floors are it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to make them match. Even using the SAME batch, Same process, EVERYTHING getting them to match is almost IMPOSSIBLE.

Ceramic Tile - These can be Easily replaced with little to NO noticeable 'patch'

Acrylics - Generally these are the (IMHO) 'easiest' to repair. Because there is NO MIXING. Saving even a 'cup' of product will suffice to make almost any repairs. A Pinch of chips and a small disposable brush and your done. Repairs are almost unnoticeable in a couple days. When this floor is starting to show some 'wear' simply giving the floor a quick sand with a pole sander then applying a light clear coat will 'freshen up' your floor for many more years. Even scratches and blemishes are easily hidden by simply applying another Clear coat. For less than $.25 per sqft you can get easily another 10-15 years out of your floor when you only have to apply a clear coat again.

Also say in 3 years you wish there had been a little bit of Blue fleck in your floor. EASY, Plan on installing one more clear, lightly (or heavily) add the color or colors you want to change the floor color. Even if you wanted a COMPLETE change simply sanding it open adding a color base coat, chips and clear coats will easily modify your floor.

By the way EVEN if you have a floor you HATE today, If it is stuck down good you can use this SAME process NOW. Regardless of what brand or type it is. IF you have the box store stuff and it is peeling up, I would AT LEAST recommend GRINDING off the areas that are peeling Completely. You can 'feather' in the NEW floor without a lot of problem. IF peeling starts in another area, using the left over product from your installation, Grind that area and 'feather' in a patch. NEW Video section coming SOON on my blog.

Your Options for repair and 'change' with acrylics is endless.

 

[moogoob]

Think of it like this. It's only money.

.....You are what they would call a high risk customer. Very tough to satisfy.

....

Me too! AG watch out come springtime

Epoxy floor guy, Your logic lost me somewhere. So packing spare tiles and replacing a perfect fit is more difficult than sanding and refinishing another topcoat.


I don’t think there is a best decision you can make. Somewhere there is a compromise.

I think a lot comes down to Time, Will, Money.... which two do you have?.... I only have Will.

I do think there are some things to watch out for.
- Things that are more gimmick than tried and tested products
- Company contacts where its super easy to get to sales, not so much support
- Single contact methods. I don’t want to be limited to only calling in on weekdays before 5pm.
- where I have to act now!!
- The fake sale (list price $2200, Retail 1900, Sale Price 600)
- The add-on sale (the price is right until you factor in all the other stuff you are required to purchase)
- Products that can do EVERYTING!, better than any other product, EVER!! and Guaranteed
- As seen on TV (excluding the ultimate chopper and miracle blades.... I can grind cinder blocks and chop flying pineapples like there's no tomorrow!!!)


[/random thoughts]

 

[Matt M PA]

Thanks for all the replies. I must take some exception with being labelled a "high risk customer", however.

The reason for this post was not to take shots at any product...but to open up discussion about the various flooring choices. It's only my observations from talking to different makers, on-line research and store personnel.

 

[WolverineCoatings]

Hi Matt,

One great way to guess longevity is to seach for failures. It seems like you have already done at least some research where you found 'it *****' or 'it's great'. We've never had a failure. Can you find anything negative online about Wolverine Coatings? I mean, I can tell you all day until the cows come home that our products are awesome. In fact, you can read these forums and see what others are saying about us. I can sense that you're just a bit gunshy and that probably has alot to do with the marketing gurus and their false hype. We don't have a marketing department. I think that we've all become a bit cynical and distrusting of the humans running companies these days. I know I am.

We won't lie to you.

Obviously, if a company had only been in business a few years or something they might avoid negative press on the internet. We've been in business since 2001. To my knowledge, EVERY floor that has ever been completed with our products is either still in service or has lasted past it's expected life expectancy.

Please keep in mind, at one Pharmaceutical facility the life expectancy was 3 weeks. It is an extremely harsh environment. In 30 years they had never had a floor last longer than that. Our material has been down for almost 2 years in that environment. We are now the sole supplier there.

So, how long will a Wolverine Coatings system last in your garage? The truth is that no one can really answer that. Sorry, but I'm a 'no spin' kind of guy. The best we can do is guess and obviously it would depend on proper installation, how much abuse you are going to give your floor, and the system you install.

If you do a good job, apply a good system, and take care of it, you may be looking at a duration in terms of decades.

 

[Ramblur]

Just my $.02. If your going to be there long term,pull the trigger and spend
the $$. I struggled with spending the money in 97 and am damn glad now
that I spent it.It has served me well and continues too.Its still the envy
of every garage guy that sets foot on it.Iirc I believe I spent about $1.50
a foot almost 12 yrs. ago...

 

[AlphaGarage]

Jumping across the garage door threshold, and playing the Devil's advocate here... Let's assume that you really abuse the floor, constantly rolling across that fully loaded engine hoist with those tiny, nasty metal wheels, always dropping tools and heavy parts, just treating the floor like it was, well... a shop floor.

Given that scenario, how will the floor hold up?

Probably pretty good, but it will show some battle scars. However that doesn't mean you need to grind it down to bare concrete and reappply the entire system. We spec a clear coat of either Bondtite 1101 or EnduraShield 2254 over the body coat of LiquaTile 1184. If either clear coat gets to the point where cosmetically it needs to be cleaned up, you can do a bit of prep to the existing surface and recoat just the clear coat. Conceivably you just recoat the heavily worn paths, but it'd probably be easer just to hit the entire exposed areas.

Prepping would mean roughing up the surface with a Scotchbrite pad, wiping down with MEK, and then recoating per original instructions for the clear coat.