Rant about county requirements

[jkeyser14]

My county requires a licensed electrician to do all electrical work. While I see this as being a way to try and prevent clueless homeowners from doing things themselves, I think think this requirement is a horrible idea. If a homeowner was actually going to pull the permit and try to do a legitimate job they would go through the inspection process any problems should be caught. Instead this requirement screams "If you were thinking about doing it yourself, don't let anyone know." This is pretty obvious as evidenced by my house's previous owner who had live wires dangling in the ceiling, junctions outside of boxes, no nail plates, staples through insulation, boxes sitting unsecured in the wall, etc.

So now what was going to be a simple job of upgrading my service panel means that I have to pay an electrician to pull a permit for me, come inspect the work, and deal with the inspector. So a $500 job becomes several hundred dollars more very quickly.

A much better approach would be to require a consultation with an inspector for unlicensed homeowners (even if more expensive) before starting the job. Something to make sure both parties understand what the plan is and what is required. In today's law suit happy society I'm suprised no one has sued them since it's pretty obvious that their rules promote unsafe behaviors.

 

[pcmeiners]

Same in NYC...
We should have the right to wire, with an inspection by the city or by private inspection; there is some much illegal wiring it is not believable. With no option, homeowners with little knowledge, try to save hundreds per circuit installation (very simple 30ft run costs about $300).
I have to do about $3000.00 worth of "illegal" wiring ( figuring the union rate), to bring my house up to code..that is after a licensed electrician created the violations a few years back.

 

[nate379]

How would anyone know you are re-wiring in the house? Are the feds spying on you at the hardware store?

 

[fordcragar]

Where I live, the county will let you do your own wiring, with a permit. The bad thing about no permit, if there is a problem later (like fire), your insurance company probably would deny coverage.

 

[kbs2244]

Find an old retired guy that is still licensed.
Invite him over to watch you work and advise you when you are doing something wrong.
He doesn’t do any work, just watches, teaches, and signs off.

Or check into getting the license yourself.
If you got a decent SAT score you can most likely pass the test.
It is mostly knowing what gage for what draw at what distance.

 

[pcmeiners]

"How would anyone know you are re-wiring in the house?"
Sell your house and the city inspects... city is worse than the Feds

"Or check into getting the license yourself."
Here you must be an indentured slave to a licensed electrician for years before you can take the test.

 

[hidollartoys]

Find an old retired guy that is still licensed.
Invite him over to watch you work and advise you when you are doing something wrong.
He doesn’t do any work, just watches, teaches, and signs off.

Or check into getting the license yourself.
If you got a decent SAT score you can most likely pass the test.
It is mostly knowing what gage for what draw at what distance.

I am sorry you have this attutude about the requirements for a license. It is true that passing the test does not make you a good electrician and it is mostly about satisfying the inspector. I just took the Experior Master Electrician's test and it was a "little" more knowing the amps, distance and wire gage. It is this attitude that makes me want to smack someone.

 

[MD11]

My county requires a licensed electrician to do all electrical work. While I see this as being a way to try and prevent clueless homeowners from doing things themselves, I think think this requirement is a horrible idea. If a homeowner was actually going to pull the permit and try to do a legitimate job they would go through the inspection process any problems should be caught. Instead this requirement screams "If you were thinking about doing it yourself, don't let anyone know." This is pretty obvious as evidenced by my house's previous owner who had live wires dangling in the ceiling, junctions outside of boxes, no nail plates, staples through insulation, boxes sitting unsecured in the wall, etc.

So now what was going to be a simple job of upgrading my service panel means that I have to pay an electrician to pull a permit for me, come inspect the work, and deal with the inspector. So a $500 job becomes several hundred dollars more very quickly.

A much better approach would be to require a consultation with an inspector for unlicensed homeowners (even if more expensive) before starting the job. Something to make sure both parties understand what the plan is and what is required. In today's law suit happy society I'm suprised no one has sued them since it's pretty obvious that their rules promote unsafe behaviors.

I have a BSEE and have to hire an electrician to do work.... to be honest, I did my own damn dimming wall switches, but something like that doesn't really show up on a sale..

but I agree, its a bit lame.

 

[alberto]

Just thank goodness you don't live in California. I can give you a list an arm long of things that a screwy about the codes.

 

[dustin19]

Ido all my own wiring in the house im in and I need a permit but didnt get one... I say if its your house YOU paid for it you can do whatever you want in it. all the dam county is doing is trying to take away ur rights.

 

[Cryptic1911]

My motto is, If they can't see it from the road, they don't need to know about it

 

[79BlackPearl]

I belive Louisiana has found common ground.....an owner can completely build their own house, with inspections. This way, insurance companies are happy, will insure the house and an inspector has ensured things visable during an inspection are safe.

If it's commercial, licensed folks are required since it's considered "public".

Oh, if something happens to your structure, and you didn't have permits, they will not pay your insurance claim. An elderly guy rebuilt a set of stairs in his home that was not correct and, without a permit. 9 months later he fell down those stairs, died and insurance denied his wife's claim.....his $500K life insurance claim. He built his stairs with a 13" rise. Nobody knows why. Sad sad sad.....

 

[Falcon67]

A couple of episodes of Holmes on Homes and there's liable to be codes worse than now. The end game to have safe installation of things sometimes gets lost in the details. So you rewire your house, it's in there 5-10 years - who knows when it was installed unless somebody says? I looked at a house today that was built in 58 and I'll bet the Fed Pacific box on the outside is original. But the rest of it, including the obvious mods to the house layout - - ??? Who knows? Also looked at a repo - mods there, owners long gone. Who says what about what? Nobody knows squat. Hell, the listing agent didn't know the back yard was being kept from sliding into the creek by a 2x6 and some posts until I pointed it out.

I don't completely buy the insurance deal either - Allstate looked at this house with an inspector, with the three weather heads, 4 FP boxes and weird wiring all right on the outside of the building in plain sight. Rotted window frames, knob-and-tube wiring in the attic, etc. They wound not write a policy until...ready...I changed the shingles on the shed because they were curled on the edges. Other than that, good to go. $100 at Payless and an afternoon on a small roof and we had coverage.

 

[BanjoSavesTheDay]

Ido all my own wiring in the house im in and I need a permit but didnt get one... I say if its your house YOU paid for it you can do whatever you want in it. all the dam county is doing is trying to take away ur rights.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[ddawg16]

Just thank goodness you don't live in California. I can give you a list an arm long of things that a screwy about the codes.

Another reason to not legalize drugs......

Not sure what California your living in...but the codes hear are the same as anywhere else.....and I can do the work myself....I go down, pull a permit...when I'm done the inspector comes by....checks it out...signs off....end of story.....nothing screwy about the codes....When I upgraded my main panel from a 60A to a 200A I believe the permit cost me $75 (9 years ago)....and the guy came by one day when I had a question to look at it...and give me an answer....

 

[Rosco]

In Ga. I can do all of the wiring inside myself by just pulling a permit and having it inspected. When I put in my main panel to my garage (dedicated 200 amp with its own meter) I had to have a licensed electrician do the work or the power company would not connect. After the panel was in and signed off (30 day temp) I was free to wire everything to the panel myself prior to final inspection.

Although it was more costly, I feel a lot better knowing a licensed electrician performed the main panel work, and I have the paperwork for future inspections and the insurance company.

On a side note, a freind of mine wired his garage (very good job too) without pulling a permit. He had it insured and subsequently had a fire (unrelated to electrical). The insurance company would not pay because he did not pull the proper permits. $100 and some inconvenience would have saved him thousands.

 

[RM209]

JKeyser: I live in MD as well. In my county, permits are only required for substantial upgrades; additional outlets, lights and even circuits (including 220) can be added without requesting a permit. You might want to confirm w/ the building inspector which (any) upgrades or changes can be initiated without a permit. The only reason I needed a permit was to add a sub-panel, and I was able to obtain a permit and do the upgrade myself by taking an (open-book) homeowner exam; after completing the work, the county inspected my work and gave me the thumbs up.

Good Luck!
RM209

 

[ymerej]

I'm right with you Jon. If I didn't need permits, or could do it all myself I would already have my garage completely wired by now. As it is, we just got the permit this past week, and now I'm ready to trench out to the garage from the house... whenever the snow melts so I can see where I'm digging.

Luckily I haven't found much (if any) homeowner wiring that's not to code, but Whit (my brother) has plenty of that in his house.

 

[porschedude996TT]

Just thank goodness you don't live in California. I can give you a list an arm long of things that a screwy about the codes.

Not sure what you are talking about unless it is the seismic stuff in the code. I wired my 1200 sq ft shop with more outlets and 5 220 circuits, ran the service the the service entrance panel, and upgraded the service entrance panel and I live in California and I am not a licensed electrician.

 

[jkeyser14]

I'm right with you Jon. If I didn't need permits, or could do it all myself I would already have my garage completely wired by now. As it is, we just got the permit this past week, and now I'm ready to trench out to the garage from the house... whenever the snow melts so I can see where I'm digging.

Luckily I haven't found much (if any) homeowner wiring that's not to code, but Whit (my brother) has plenty of that in his house.

Let me know if you need help or tools (conduit benders, etc).

 

[LoneGunman]

"Or check into getting the license yourself.
If you got a decent SAT score you can most likely pass the test.
It is mostly knowing what gage for what draw at what distance. "

Don't know where you are from but EVERY masters test I have heard of is a little more involved than that, nevermind the fact about having the required time in the trade, area dependant. The KEY to ANY master electrician test in knowing where to find what in the code book, knowing your formulas and then knowing the law and business questions.

I do disagree with the OP's county though, an owner of a single family home should be able to do any work he wants with an inspection after the work is complete.

 

[cw_racefan]

JKeyser - AA County? I feel your pain, having had to go through the same deal for my garage. And to the poster who suggested that possibly there was some work that didn't require a permit, not here in my lovely county. Technically even replacing a breaker requires a permit. As the OP stated, a homeowner cannot pull any trade permits. They must be pulled by a licensed master tradesperson. Now building permits I can pull, just no plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc. Again, like the OP commented, seems to push people to due things un-permited with no inspection. My area is definitely a good-ole boys network, where I'm convinced the county gov't is merely trying to keep their buddies in work. And Lord help any licensed electrician that the inspectors don't personally know, they get raked over the coals, where one of the "network" doesn't even get their work looked at.

Ok....done ranting

 

[Tdbo]

Or, another side of the rant would be the people who interpret them. Fortunately with the amount of work I have had done to my house over the years, I have found the inspectors overall to be good people, but there was one inspector in the city that I reside who was a total J-E-R-K! When I bought my house, I had a 100 amp pushmatic service in it that was completely full. Since I was adding a hot tub and running some additional outlets and was planning future renovations, I either needed to add an auxiliary panel or replace this panel. I decided to do it right and go for a 200 amp service instead of a 150 figuring that I would be better off in the long run (same labor and an additional $20 in materials.) I had a friend who is a contractor run the electrical. He went to pull the permit and the inspector came out. The inspector said "I'm only going to approve a 150 amp service." My friend calls me up and tells me this and I go ballistic. He sets up an second appointment, at which I am at. This guy starts in that 150 amp is code, that's all I need and that's all he'll approve. My response was: 1) who the @!$# are you to tell me what I need, 2) code is a minimum NOT a maximum and if I want 10 200 amp panels on that wall and can pay for them, I'll have them, and 3) both the Mayor and another City Councilman are family friends and I have no problem involving them in this. I've enjoyed that 200 amp panel for the last 15 years.

 

[benjamming]

I live in rural north Alabama & absolutely no permits of any kind are required for residential electrical work. Not one electrical inspector or permit to build a new house or make any changes since then. This is why we chose the land to rent where we did.

 

[bry@n]

I'd have to move.

 

[alberto]

Not sure what you are talking about unless it is the seismic stuff in the code. I wired my 1200 sq ft shop with more outlets and 5 220 circuits, ran the service the the service entrance panel, and upgraded the service entrance panel and I live in California and I am not a licensed electrician.

Another reason to not legalize drugs......

Not sure what California your living in...but the codes hear are the same as anywhere else.....and I can do the work myself....I go down, pull a permit...when I'm done the inspector comes by....checks it out...signs off....end of story.....nothing screwy about the codes....When I upgraded my main panel from a 60A to a 200A I believe the permit cost me $75 (9 years ago)....and the guy came by one day when I had a question to look at it...and give me an answer....

I'm not necesarilly refering to the electrical codes, but instead to the stupid permitting and inspection processes they have. Too involved to get into the specifics of my case, but basically you have people telling you what you can and cannot do on your property (and I'm not talking about whether you ground your outlets), having the system be able to tell you what you can and cannot put on your property, such as the size of your garage, having to wait for a total of 2 hours at the local DPLU for a total of 30 minutes worth of meeting time going station to station, etc.

Maybe you guys live in zoning/building paradise or work for the government, but from where I sit, it is truly insane.