Rant: Dirty Rotten Backstabbers...

[bwringer]

A bit of a rant.

How is backstabbing remotely legal?

I finally got done yesterday replacing every last outlet and switch in my house.

It started with some intermittent outlet failures, including a chain in my living room that was lots of fun to figure out. After seeing the state of the outlets and switches there, I decided to replace everything in the house.

All the switches and outlets were hooked up with backstabbing instead of using the screw terminals, and all that saw any regular use were showing signs of overheating and corrosion.

I mean, I know why people do it -- sure, it saves time. I just don't know how or why backstabbing is legal or up to code. One tiny spring-loaded point of contact is just plain doomed to fail.


And as a secondary rant, I'll mention completely unlabeled breakers in random order with the most insane combinations. Like one small bathroom with the fan and the light on separate circuits. The light seems to be by itself on one circuit, and the fan seems to be on the same breaker as some random stuff in the kitchen two rooms away. I mean, why? How?

Aaaaarrgggggh.





Thank you for undertanding... this has already been very therapeutic.

 

[strutaeng]

Sorry for your troubles. I thought this was going to be a friend that "backstabbed" you, LOL.

I'm not a pro, but have done a few large remodeling projects and wiring. I honestly didn't really know what those little holes were in the back of some receptacles until not that long ago. I've always used the screws to attach the wires.

I may have installed maybe one or two on my house rewiring with backstabbing, but on the nicer Leviton. I wouldn't use the back stabbing on the cheap $0.67 receptacles.

 

[b-boy]

I hate the back stabs. My house was like yours, all back stabs. I've replaced most if them, but there are still a few left upstairs.

I had one where the neutral the was completely disconnected, but the circuit was still working. That leads me to believe it was arching on something to make it work, probably the metal box. It was an old run of armored cable.

My biggest problem was the lack of wiring left in the boxes. Whoever did them didn't leave enough wire to reconnect, so I had to so pigtails on all of them. Seriously, there was not even enough wire to stick out of the front of the box.

 

[Boilerhouse]

I am curious too. I will be re-doing many of the back-stabbed receptacles, at the cottage, with the side screws.

 

[kenp51d]

Well dang, we must of had the same builders.
One circuit that has 13 sockets, 5 light switches, some a fair load (fridge), backstapped every single box, all Daisy chained off the first box. A stupid lazy jackass mess. Is that much on a single breaker even code?
I don't think I have ever backstapped a single box.

Sent from my V10 using Tapatalk

 

[sberry]

Just did a service call for backstabbers. Bathroom was wayyyyyyyy down a long line of them where they use hair dryer. Surprised it lasted that long.

 

[Norcal]

The receptacles are UL listed and if you bought a tract or spec home you get absolutely the cheapest products and way of doing things. Margins are tight, a old timer electrical contractor was telling me that if there was a $20 less to use aluminum rather then copper, aluminum it was for residential contractors, AL branch circuit wiring has not been used in years but it is a good example.

 

[nh_yota]

How are they legal? Because of lobbying - the same reason why expensive and questionably useful arc fault breakers are required in most jurisdictions.

 

[Norcal]

They have listed as long as I can remember, only change has been it’s limited to 14 AWG on current products.

 

[BillK]

I wonder how many millions of those devices are installed and have never had a problem ?

My house is 40 years old and every outlet is backstabbed and to be honest with you it has not caused a single problem. I have had to replace a couple of switches because they started acting funny but it had nothing to do with the wire connection.

I certainly could never say anything bad about the person who installed them if they are UL approved ?? What exactly did they do wrong ?? .... NOTHING

 

[OccupantRJ]

The last few houses I have bought, changing out all the switches and receptacles is one of the first things I do before my family moves into the house. The high percentage of shaky connections I have found tells me that I am doing the right thing. I now use only the back inserted clamp plate type for any wiring I do for myself.

 

[CoogarXR]

I used to work on a lot of mobile homes, and they were all back-stabbed, brittle, junk outlets. Somebody would push a plug in too hard and crack the outlet, it would fall apart, and all the downstream outlets stop working. If you are lucky that is... If you aren't lucky, the outlet had a load on it from the downstream outlets and it arcs a lot, melting the outlet and sometimes causing a fire.

If you are gonna be a "yay-backstabbing!" kinda guy, at least wirenut your junctions and don't use the outlet as a junction.

 

[aka Larry]

IMO, using those back-stab outlets on AC wiring is like using Scotch-Lok connectors on 12VDC wiring.

 

[jd_1138]

It's a lack of professionalism, ethics, and just plain not giving an F and being lazy. When I started dating my wife, I immediately started noticing all the **** work done at her house by tradesmen not caring because they knew she was a woman and ignorant about home repairs.

She had a new AC/central heat put in. They plopped the condenser down in the dirt, didn't even put it on a $30 pad. I bought one and corrected the situation.

 

[Jim greengo]

They haven't been legal around Omaha since atleast the early 90s anyway.

 

[Jim greengo]

I used to work on a lot of mobile homes, and they were all back-stabbed, brittle, junk outlets. Somebody would push a plug in too hard and crack the outlet, it would fall apart, and all the downstream outlets stop working. If you are lucky that is... If you aren't lucky, the outlet had a load on it from the downstream outlets and it arcs a lot, melting the outlet and sometimes causing a fire.

If you are gonna be a "yay-backstabbing!" kinda guy, at least wirenut your junctions and don't use the outlet as a junction.

 

[bwringer]

I guess it could have been worse -- I actually had enough wire in everything, so that was a pleasant surprise. Just barely enough, in some cases, but I got 'er did. And of course a few boxes were crammed full so packing everything in again was challenging.

And nothing was wired backwards, ungrounded, etc. which was actually pretty shocking. (Or un-shocking?)

 

[bwringer]

They haven't been legal around Omaha since atleast the early 90s anyway.

Interesting. Are there other places where code doesn't allow backstabbing?


I'm not an electrician, just a home owner who knows which end of the screwdriver to hold.

 

[Norcal]

Interesting. Are there other places where code doesn't allow backstabbing?


I'm not an electrician, just a home owner who knows which end of the screwdriver to hold.

Not prohibited by the NEC, but any local prohibition would need to be adopted as a ordinance,I am not a fan of them but MH’s (trailers), multi family units, and tract homes, are built cheap so backstabbing is what you get, that’s the facts.

 

[Flail]

The spring loaded backstabberz **** but I like the ones you tighten with a screw.

 

[bwringer]

The spring loaded backstabberz **** but I like the ones you tighten with a screw.

Yeah, I suppose I could have clarified that I was talking about the spring-loaded **** where there's just a little hole you poke the wire into and then hope for the best...

Nothing at all wrong with the "clamp" style you describe, and almost as fast as backstabbing.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The proper terms are pushwire aka "backstabbed" and backwire which have the pressure plate clamp. Some spec grade outlets have the wire clamp.

 

[n8n]

As of a few years ago, backstabs are only legal for 14AWG wire/15A circuits. Used to be legal also for 12AWG but not anymore. I never use them - I far prefer the spec grade ones with the square washers.

The only reason they are used is to get the job done faster. There is no functional justification for them.

 

[teamextreme]

All the gripes here have merit and I have seen first hand as a service electrician that the vast majority of open circuit issues are caused by backstabs failing. BUT, the implication that there is a rampant, "high percentage" of failures, issue with these connections is misleading. Let's not overlook the fact that virtually EVERY home in the US is wired this way, meaning there are hundreds of millions of these connections in existence. If the high percentages of failures were present at even 1% we'd see dozens of houses on fire every day in every city. Fact is, they work pretty well. That doesn't mean I would use them and I never have used them when I was an electrician (company policy forbid it), and I agree they ****. But they aren't the catastrophic disaster implied by everyone here.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

All the gripes here have merit and I have seen first hand as a service electrician that the vast majority of open circuit issues are caused by backstabs failing. BUT, the implication that there is a rampant, "high percentage" of failures, issue with these connections is misleading. Let's not overlook the fact that virtually EVERY home in the US is wired this way, meaning there are hundreds of millions of these connections in existence. If the high percentages of failures were present at even 1% we'd see dozens of houses on fire every day in every city. Fact is, they work pretty well. That doesn't mean I would use them and I never have used them when I was an electrician (company policy forbid it), and I agree they ****. But they aren't the catastrophic disaster implied by everyone here.

Totally agree. I was a service electrician in the past and got a lot of dead circuit calls that turned out to be backstabbed outlets.

But the failures are not that high.

Some large houses that Ive had calls for have tons of them and only one failed.

If the failures and fire risk was high, like aluminum branch circuit wiring from the 60s and 70s, it would be a front and center issue.

 

[Jim greengo]

Not prohibited by the NEC, but any local prohibition would need to be adopted as a ordinance,I am not a fan of them but MH’s (trailers), multi family units, and tract homes, are built cheap so backstabbing is what you get, that’s the facts.

That's been a local code since atleast then,dont want to think back too much further than that.
Makes my head hurt.

 

[Jsf721]

Hey guys this is a serious comment. I’m not very Electricly savy. I replaced 2 Gcfi outlets on my bathroom and one switch. I purchased the same one and carefully copied where everything was and replaced them. They were backstabed. Is this really a
Problem. I have an electrician coming to install some new fixtures. I can have him fix these when he comes if necessary.

Thanks

 

[American Locomotive]

Let's not overlook the fact that virtually EVERY home in the US is wired this way, meaning there are hundreds of millions of these connections in existence.

I've done a lot of electrical work in many different houses, and have never seen a single backstabbed outlet. I really don't think you can say "virtually every house" is wired that way.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hey guys this is a serious comment. I’m not very Electricly savy. I replaced 2 Gcfi outlets on my bathroom and one switch. I purchased the same one and carefully copied where everything was and replaced them. They were backstabed. Is this really a
Problem. I have an electrician coming to install some new fixtures. I can have him fix these when he comes if necessary.

Thanks

GFCIs dont have push-wire terminals.

 

[dscheidt]

GFCIs dont have push-wire terminals.

Some do. Or did, at least.

 

[teamextreme]

I've done a lot of electrical work in many different houses, and have never seen a single backstabbed outlet. I really don't think you can say "virtually every house" is wired that way.

Interesting, I have the complete opposite experience after my 10+ years of being a service electrician. Maybe it's a regional thing. Out of curiosity, what's your sample size of "many different houses"? Are we talking a handful, dozens, hundreds? What are other sparkies experience? What percentage would you say you see?

Some do. Or did, at least.

I've never seen a GFI outlet with spring-push-wire back stabs.

 

[Norcal]

I've never seen a GFI outlet with spring-push-wire back stabs.

P&S was has backwire connections, I thought they were pressure plate connectors but taking one apart because i wanted see why it failed discovered they were a backstab connection.

Square D, Zinsco, both used pushwire terminals on their circuit breakers, it never became widespread but it was interesting that one company on the upper end of the quality spectrum and another on the bottom, or should I say was the bottom both offered them.

 

[Radix2]

P&S was has backwire connections, I thought they were pressure plate connectors but taking one apart because i wanted see why it failed discovered they were a backstab connection.

Square D, Zinsco, both used pushwire terminals on their circuit breakers, it never became widespread but it was interesting that one company on the upper end of the quality spectrum and another on the bottom, or should I say was the bottom both offered them.

As with any technology, it can be designed and tested good or bad.

Screw or push-in, all these connections are based on pressure, and require that the contact pressure be maintained over life to stay effective.

Both screws and springs have their own issues - screws can lose pressure due to material creep after thermal cycling, springs may suffer from low design pressures.

The early backstabbed outlets were just plane old cheap design poorly validated and implemented. No excuse, but not anything to do with the concept as properly executed in wago or ideal style connectors. Or the push on connection for breakers, or the spring loaded contacts inside breakers for that matter.

The advantage of push style connections is not just labor, but engineered consistency since the interface is controlled more by design than it is by the craftsmanship of the installer as in the caee of older designs. Screws, fabricated loops, twist on wirenuts, etc. require more skill an attention,something that is not always present unfortunately.

Are the modern push in terminals on outlets now up to par? I hope so, but I still don't use them myself.

 

[rlitman]

Totally agree. I was a service electrician in the past and got a lot of dead circuit calls that turned out to be backstabbed outlets.

But the failures are not that high.

Some large houses that Ive had calls for have tons of them and only one failed.

If the failures and fire risk was high, like aluminum branch circuit wiring from the 60s and 70s, it would be a front and center issue.

This thread has funny timing. Last Friday, a co-worker said his dad smelled something burning in his finished basement, so we sent him home with our FLIR camera to investigate. After removing the cover plate, he found the body of the back stabbed outlet actually glowing.

 

[Jim greengo]

As with any technology, it can be designed and tested good or bad.

Screw or push-in, all these connections are based on pressure, and require that the contact pressure be maintained over life to stay effective.

Both screws and springs have their own issues - screws can lose pressure due to material creep after thermal cycling, springs may suffer from low design pressures.

The early backwire outlets were just plane old cheap design poorly validated and implemented. No excuse, but not anything to do with the concept as properly executed in wago or ideal style connectors. Or the push on connection for breakers, or the spring loaded contacts inside breakers for that matter.

The advantage of push style connections is not just labor, but engineered consistency since the interface is controlled more by design than it is by the craftsmanship of the installer as in the caee of older designs. Screws, fabricated loops, twist on wirenuts, etc. require more skill an attention,something that is not always present unfortunately.

Are the modern push in terminals on outlets now up to par? I hope so, but I still don't use them myself.

Push in connectors for breakers?

 

[Norcal]

The old backwire receptacles were much better then what is sold today, took out a large number of circa 1964 & 1968 backwire only Eagle receptacles, that the only reason they were removed was that blade tension was poor, any of those Eagle backwire only devices I have seen over the years have done rather well.

 

[rlitman]

... the only reason they were removed was that blade tension was poor...

If the blade tension was failing, don't you think that the back-wire spring tension was failing too? Heat on one side is known to anneal the other.

 

[Norcal]

If the blade tension was failing, don't you think that the back-wire spring tension was failing too? Heat on one side is known to anneal the other.

It was not heat, they do wear out & after 50 years & nearly 50 years, I would say they did rather well.

Edit: The line & neutral was just fine the problem was the grounding tension was almost nonexistent.

 

[Jim greengo]

If the blade tension was failing, don't you think that the back-wire spring tension was failing too? Heat on one side is known to anneal the other.

Most failed outlets that I come across are from people yanking cords out sideways,loosens them up.

 

[teamextreme]

Most failed outlets that I come across are from people yanking cords out sideways,loosens them up.

Yup, that or just a recep that sees a lot of use. An outlet that gets things plugged in and out multiple times a day for 50 years = wore the fawk out.