Re-doing some Plumbing...pex or stick with Cu?

[Angelfire]

Hiya Folks,
I'm far from being a plumber so was looking for any advice from those with more experience. I've got a small cabin in the woods that has city water. Years ago, I moved the main shutoff in the crawl space to be closer to the access to the crawl space. At the same time, I installed a drain valve so when I leave the place, particularly in the winter, I can shut off the supply and open the drain which drains the house outside. All of this was done in copper to match what was existing. Fast forward to today and I've decided I'm getting too old (or lazy?) to turn on the water/turn off the drain, etc... everytime I go up. I'm installing a motorized 3 way valve so I'll simply have a wall switch that I can toggle to do all the work. Anyway, I recently had to replace a couple of polybutylene lines that were originally installed years ago and I took the Pex plunge so have some familiarity with it. So my question really is around whether or not I should keep my supply line all copper through the 3 way just to match what's incoming or transition to Pex and use that to install the valve? I need to dig up what I installed all those years ago and I think with the routing of things (ie. supply, drain, house), using Pex might be a lot easier vs. trying to fit all this rigid pipe into place. I don't mind soldering but arguably it would be easier to do the Pex vs. copper while under the house. Ultimately, while unearthed, whatever I go with, I plan to put heat trace/insulation on it and then bury it again (I think it's only a foot or so deep). It's all 3/4" if that matters.

Appreciate any insight you may have.
Cheers.

 

[nadogail]

Like almost everything else, IMHO the answer is “it depends”. What are you most familiar and confident with? Will you have the tools to do the installation with either material? Plumbing requires some skill and ability. My personal skills have grown ov the years but my ability is not what it once was. I have become a fan of Shark Bite fittings and flex lines.

 

[billconner]

I tend to agree on PEX and Sharkbite fittings. Expensive but fast and easy.

 

[Wiz02]

I just added pex and sharkbite fittings behind walls and in a ceiling. Time will tell if this was a wise decision or not. No leaks but the renovation is still in progress.

 

[dfiler2]

I used my first Sharkbite fitting on PEX 15 years ago and no issues with any of them yet. I do have access to them all, that's one nice thing about PEX you generally dont need any fittings hidden in walls.

 

[Wheelingit]

I would use pex and possibly sharkbite fittings.

 

[Beanscoot]

I prefer soldered copper, but if there is any chance of freezing the plastic might be a better choice.

 

[The Cobbler]

^^^ I feel the same way as Beanscoot

 

[fourjeepin]

Pex would be my vote

 

[ToddG]

If the motorized expansion tools weren’t so expensive, I’d go Pex A. Seems like a more secure connection than Sharkbite.

 

[Metal-Marc]

No one does copper anymore these days. Pex is the way to go.

 

[readhead]

Being semi retired I have been working for the local hardware store a couple of days a week. We hardly sell any copper mostly because of cost but do sell quite a bit of PEX B which seems to be the most popular DIY choice. We sell a lot of shark bite fittings to everyone but plumbers.

I’m thinking of making the plunge in to PEX but I am partial to type A. The problem is it is not available at the box stores around here and the expense for tools is not a cheap date. I’m leaning toward PEX B and upsizing the pipe to overcome the restriction in the fittings.

I guess my point is PEX is the future and the now of plumbing and it is time I got onboard.

 

[BombShelter]

I used to sell high-purity water and chemical plastic pipe systems, we didn't use mechanical joints in walls because code didn't like it. Now there's so many great products with several years of "testing" that I'd use it in most applications and code has been updated to reflect this.

I've got a small inventory of Shark Bite Fittings (and a few others) at my cabin and they are a life-saver. I always loved the look of a nice copper pipe job but I'm over that plus it usually gets covered. so nobody can see your work.

One of the problems with metal pipe is that contamination grows on the rough ID surface, plastic ID is so smooth, this is rarely an issue. Plastic pipe can also expand when the water freezes, so if you forget to drain your system, only your toilet cracks and not the pipes.

We used to talk about union plumbers in the 2000's, they hated innovation because anybody can install mechanical jointed plastic plumbing. Cities like Chicago even wouldn't let you install anything but glass, 70 year old technology! The glass, pipe and fitting distributor used to make big money since he was the only guy in town and the installers loved it.

 

[NUTTSGT]

For the simple fact that its an unoccupied cabin, I would go with PEX.

Scrap out the copper before someone else does and you HAVE to replace it with PEX.

 

[mmb617]

Many years ago I replaced all the old corroded galvanized supply lines in our house with copper, so I'm not unfamiliar with soldering pipes. A few years back when I did some renovations I tried some pex for the first time. I'll never use copper again.

 

[Angelfire]

Thanks folks for all of the inputs. I'm leaning towards using pex and soldering on fittings to the existing copper. I just can't sign up for sharkbite fittings right now....I'm sure there are a lot of real world success stories with them but being down in the dirt and such, I just worry that seal will eventually fail. I suppose everything eventually fails but I'm really hoping this is the last time I'm having to do work under the house on the plumbing! I would love to go with Pex A but folks are correct, the motorized expanders are not cheap and I think a manual expander would just be a lesson in futility given the tight space I'm in. I already have a crimper so will probably end up with Pex B.
Cheers.

 

[bluedog225]

Another vote for pex. Under or over ground.

As an aside, I‘d worry more that the motorized valve will fail. I’d find a way to have a manual valve. Maybe a push/pull rod. Or extend the pipe out to where you can turn the valve by hand. An easy job with pex. Hope it all works out for you.

 

[MattN03]

I used PEX and the PEX crimping tool from Lowes during a complete remodel of my home. It was easier and faster than crimping copper as a DIY project.

 

[CraigStu]

This may not affect what you are doing but when we had our house built in 2019 the builder used all pex for the water supply system. He said that one huge advantage is that since it bends they have many less joints to do. One other thought I have re; copper is today's solder. I swear that 45 years ago I got to be pretty good at soldering copper. 15 years ago it was a real pain to get it to work well. I was told that gov regulations for the chemical content of solder had changed it and that is why it is more difficult. I haven't verified that but the 6 or 8 plumbing projects I have done in the last 10 years have all been pex/sharkbite

 

[Angelfire]

Another vote for pex. Under or over ground.

As an aside, I‘d worry more that the motorized valve will fail. I’d find a way to have a manual valve. Maybe a push/pull rod. Or extend the pipe out to where you can turn the valve by hand. An easy job with pex. Hope it all works out for you.

The motorized valve I purchased is able to be exercised manually with a hex key. I'm hopeful I need to use that feature but it's there just in case. I'm also placing a shutoff valve upstream of the motorized valve so if it does **** out, I can swap in a new one without having the village having to shut off the water.
Cheers.

 

[Angelfire]

This may not affect what you are doing but when we had our house built in 2019 the builder used all pex for the water supply system. He said that one huge advantage is that since it bends they have many less joints to do. One other thought I have re; copper is today's solder. I swear that 45 years ago I got to be pretty good at soldering copper. 15 years ago it was a real pain to get it to work well. I was told that gov regulations for the chemical content of solder had changed it and that is why it is more difficult. I haven't verified that but the 6 or 8 plumbing projects I have done in the last 10 years have all been pex/sharkbite

Solder has definitely changed and the fittings as well. With the push to remove lead from the equation, I too have found it to be more difficult to solder. Seems to need a lot more heat than before but that could just be me.
Cheers.

 

[gregs]

What about cpvc? Some times its cleaner and neater to run since. Use a sharkbite at he copper connection and cheaper cpvc fittings for the rest.

 

[chad215]

I'm using Pex A. I bought a manual (hand pump) expansion tool for ~$100. I know people have used without issues, but I just don't trust sharkbite fittings for the long term. They are probably fine, but thats just me. First time using PEX A...I'll never go back to PVC/CPVC.

 

[RAYJAY]

What about cpvc? Some times its cleaner and neater to run since. Use a sharkbite at he copper connection and cheaper cpvc fittings for the rest.

never it get brittle with age.....

 

[nh_yota]

What about cpvc? Some times its cleaner and neater to run since. Use a sharkbite at he copper connection and cheaper cpvc fittings for the rest.

I've always thought CPVC looks like you hired the pool guy to plumb your house.

 

[Kaizen]

Thanks folks for all of the inputs. I'm leaning towards using pex and soldering on fittings to the existing copper. I just can't sign up for sharkbite fittings right now....I'm sure there are a lot of real world success stories with them but being down in the dirt and such, I just worry that seal will eventually fail. I suppose everything eventually fails but I'm really hoping this is the last time I'm having to do work under the house on the plumbing! I would love to go with Pex A but folks are correct, the motorized expanders are not cheap and I think a manual expander would just be a lesson in futility given the tight space I'm in. I already have a crimper so will probably end up with Pex B.
Cheers.

OP you have a pex crimper right? i've used mine for years and zero issues. Sharkbite is for people that don't have a crimper

 

[gregs]

I've always thought CPVC looks like you hired the pool guy to plumb your house.

6 of 1 , 1/2 dozen of the other. I have seen pex installs where it looks like garden hose weaved thru areas. Unless your doing a manifold and using all the clips to run it neat I dont think it looks any better or worse. PEX exposed to the elements can degrade from sunlight and rodents like to chew on it. Havent seen much lately for cpvc getting brittle but I guess it could. Copper still looks the best and probably lasts the longest in my opinion, but requires more $ and more skill to run it.

 

[Angelfire]

OP you have a pex crimper right? i've used mine for years and zero issues. Sharkbite is for people that don't have a crimper

I sure do. Still have to make the transition from Cu to Pex but I'll just solder those adaptors on.

 

[whateg01]

If plumbing solder has gone the way of electronics, it's all lead-free now. It's much more difficult to solder, as such, but it can be done. Just a far different technique is how I would describe it.

 

[drmarkr]

Pex A. Much easier to use in tight quarters. Besides, this is the Garage Journal.....every job (EVERY) is an excuse to buy a new, cool tool.

 

[Firebrick43]

I used my first Sharkbite fitting on PEX 15 years ago and no issues with any of them yet. I do have access to them all, that's one nice thing about PEX you generally dont need any fittings hidden in walls.

Your no to far off from having issues on a 15 year old shark bite. Great product for temp repairs and love the caps when pressure testing. No a product you want long term or in the walls. Probably the most worthless warranty as well on a product.

 

[dfiler2]

I've seen lots of copper fittings fail and all plumbing will fail at some point. To say I'm not far off from having issues is just conjecture on your part.

 

[Prospecter]

What I like best about PEX is the opportunity to reduce the number of joints, which to my mind are most likely points of failure. Especially when I use a manifold. As I transition, Sharkbites work well to connect to copper. I originally plumbed my house myself with copper, but I am a PEX guy now. I use crimp connectors, but I imagine the savings in not using copper would pay for PEX A.

 

[Firebrick43]

I've seen lots of copper fittings fail and all plumbing will fail at some point. To say I'm not far off from having issues is just conjecture on your part.

No, rubber o rings fail in the 15 to 20 year range. Shark bites use rubber o rings. I have seen plenty sharkbites fail in that time frame. I have seen hundreds of push connect air fittings fail in the o ring with are practically the same type of fitting, just different size. Have you not seen rubber, say on tires check/crack. All rubber does the same thing.

Yes copper fails eventually, I just replaced some copper DWV pipe from 1969. The pressure pipe is still good with no issues.

 

[LSU]

I’ve got a very isolated camp. It has a 12v water pump, solar panel to charge the battery and a big rainwater cistern. My camp is in a saltwater marsh about 5 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico.

In the past 20 years we’ve had galvanized pipe, some sweated copper, PVC/CPVC and some polybutylene stuff. All of this busted or broke despite our best efforts to drain water, run the lines out of the sun, etc. mostly the breaks were caused by freezing temps.

A few years ago we replumbed with Blue & Red PEX. We bought a crimper and had zero issues.

I’d highly recommend PEX and a crimper. We tried shark bite fittings but found the connections were not up to our needs.

 

[Beanscoot]

Regarding modern solder, it is indeed lead free, one type I've come across being 99.5% tin and half a percent silver.
It's a little more difficult to use than the old 50/50 lead tin alloy, but significantly stronger. My in-laws had a hot water tank installed a while ago and whoever did it, did a beautiful job on soldering, leaving a nice fillet on each joint.
The failures I've seen in old copper plumbing were invariably from a poor joint, examining the "pipes" showed minimal solder flow. Correctly soldered joints don't come apart on freezing, the tubing bursts.

At our old off-grid house I repaired a lot of freeze damage, and modified the runs so that everything sloped down slightly so that it could be drained for winter.

Another common fault I see in copper plumbing is cut ends not deburred or chamfered. This will reduce flow, especially when a somewhat dull tubing cutter is used which deforms the copper inwards more than a sharp tool. If all the ends in a system were properly deburred, 1/2" copper could sometimes be used instead of having to go up to 3/4".

 

[Senorpablo]

I just replaced a failed cold water copper pipe with Pex b. The copper pipe had developed a hole inside the wall. After removing it, I inspected the length of pipe by sawing it in half with a bandsaw. This particular vertical pipe had two couplers along it so it could be dropped in from the attic with limited overhead clearance. This pipe was to replace the original iron pipe and I estimate the copper install to be 15 years old. The pipe had considerable pockets of corrosion, one of which was a sizable hole, all below the soldered coupler joints. Probably from the flux. The whole house was replumbed this way, so I no longer have a lot of confidence in the reliability of copper, at least as it was installed here. Pex b made the repair a breeze, considering limited attic and in-wall clearance. In the end, it was one solder joint and two crimps for Pex b versus 9 solder joints for a copper repair.

 

[luvtheheat]

Disclaimer - I'm not a plumber...

Saw articles like this recently: https://www.flowguardgold.com/en-us...ending-pex-pipe-can-lead-to-premature-failure

It would seem benefits of PEX are far less if you can't bend it and have to do fittings at each change of direction.

Comments?

 

[readhead]

That isn’t an article it is an ad for CPVC pipe. It doesn’t indicate any testing organization and connects to one house in California. It does note PEX C failures however PEX C has been out of production for about fifteen years after a class action lawsuit. If you read to the bottom of the ad there are, in fine print, several disclaimers about the information.

 

[jetnow1]

Pex is faster easier, not likely to be stolen, will expand if frozen rather than crack, but rats can/will chew threw it, especially where it enters/exits. Might consider
using combination of copper where going threw floors etc then using pex where the vermin are not trying to get in.