Re-tiling the kitchen...

[Mr_Slerm]

Hi, all. New poster here, so I apologize if this question is somewhat redundant.

Our house was flipped by a bum of a GC. One of the (many) issues that we're now fixing, some six years later, is the kitchen floor. It's cheapo 12"x12" ceramic tile with grout lines that are waaay too wide. Soon after moving in the tiles started cracking. Now almost 1/3 are cracked. So now we must replace.

The PO did put down 3/4" plywood over the existing ~1" oak hardwood, so it looks like the underlayment should be ok, but I'm guessing that they may not have used enough adhesive and/or screws when securing. Cabinets are installed on top of the tile.

So now for the questions:

Advice for busting out the old tile, since the cabinets sit on top?
Recommendations for precautions to be taken to ensure the underlayment is sound and ensure no cracking in new tile? We're looking at 4"x12" or similar.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[tnfloorman]

The only way to get that old tile out is with good old fashioned elbow grease. You could use an air chisel or just a happer and cold chisel or pry bar.

The reason the previous tile cracked is movement in the subfloor. You have to make sure it is a solid base to install the tile. We use a 1/4" fiber cement board with latex fortified thinset under it. Let that set up good before installing the tile, also with a fortified thinset. As in most projects, the prep work is key. If you start with that solid base you shouldn't have any more issues.

 

[Zeke]

That does sound like a mess. The best way to set tile over an existing raised floor is to thinset the sub floor and plop some 5/8ths backerboard down and screw. Then use modified thinset to set the tiles. Epoxy grout will finish the job secure.

BUT, you have the issue of not only the tile under the cabinets, but the existing plywood underlayment. This ain't gonna be easy. Once you beat out the tile, the front of the cabinets will be floating. Then cutting out the plywood back to the toe kick will be a nightmare even with a toe kick saw because of the jagged, broken tiles.

Maybe there is a ceramic blade for that tool.

 

[shoot summ]

I should find the thread where the OP asked if he should tile under his cabinets, this is the reason you DO NOT tile under cabinets...

 

[Mr_Slerm]

The reason the previous tile cracked is movement in the subfloor. You have to make sure it is a solid base to install the tile. We use a 1/4" fiber cement board with latex fortified thinset under it. Let that set up good before installing the tile, also with a fortified thinset. As in most projects, the prep work is key. If you start with that solid base you shouldn't have any more issues.

Thanks, tnfloorman. Are you saying that I could do this over the existing subfloor? I don't really want to go through the trouble of removing cabinets and the existing floor if I don't have to...

 

[tnfloorman]

Thanks, tnfloorman. Are you saying that I could do this over the existing subfloor? I don't really want to go through the trouble of removing cabinets and the existing floor if I don't have to...

If the height of the new floor won't be an issue for you, then it's no problem. You will be adding about 3/4" total using 1/4" board, tile and thinset.

If you want to remove the 3/4" plywood, you could go with 1/2" board to get the height back to where it was.

No need to remove cabinets, if you can get the tile broken at the toekick.

 

[tnfloorman]

I should find the thread where the OP asked if he should tile under his cabinets, this is the reason you DO NOT tile under cabinets...

I agree. I advise against placing floors under cabinetry whenever possible. Even hardwood and tile just aren't seen as permanent floors anymore. Unless you change the footprint of cabinet layout, which is not commonly done in most remodels, you are just setting yourself up for more headache down the road. The exception to that would be an island in a kitchen.

 

[Mr_Slerm]

Thanks - I'm hoping to keep the height the same as it's already about 3/4" higher than the adjoining DR...

 

[Zeke]

What we are saying here is get the 3/4 ply off the floor and replace it with cement board. You will actually lower your overall height.

 

[tnfloorman]

Thanks - I'm hoping to keep the height the same as it's already about 3/4" higher than the adjoining DR...

Then yes, I would get rid of the 3/4" plywood.

 

[James-W]

I disagree completely, continuing the main floor under the cabinets is not a bad idea, it is a good idea. Just because the people who installed the kitchen floor did a sub-standard job on the tile installation does not mean having the main floor under the cabinets is a bad thing. If the floor had been installed correctly the cabinets would need to be replaced long before the floor would need to be replaced and this whole situation would never have surfaced.

 

[DeadSock]

The exception to that would be an island in a kitchen.

A pic of my island over a "floating floor" ...
I used some 3/4" ply to make a base that the brick sits on. it's back about 1/2" from the brick face so the floor slipped under and has space to "float".
No trimming out around brick was needed

 

[workhurts]

Just a comment on the latex modified thinset under the cement board. I've always been told and have read extensively not to use a modified thinset between the cement board and the plywood. Its only purpose is to fill any voids and act as a decoupling layer. The layer between the cement board and the tile should be latex modified.

If you are having serious movement issues you could also look into something like Schluter's Ditra or the like.

 

[tnfloorman]

I disagree completely, continuing the main floor under the cabinets is not a bad idea, it is a good idea. Just because the people who installed the kitchen floor did a sub-standard job on the tile installation does not mean having the main floor under the cabinets is a bad thing. If the floor had been installed correctly the cabinets would need to be replaced long before the floor would need to be replaced and this whole situation would never have surfaced.

Yes the floor may not need to be replaced, but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't want to replace it, and that is what I was referring to. People's taste and fashions change more often then flooring wears out.

 

[tnfloorman]

Just a comment on the latex modified thinset under the cement board. I've always been told and have read extensively not to use a modified thinset between the cement board and the plywood.

I can only tell you that I have never had a problem using the modified thinset under the board. Not under any of my customer's floors or in my own home.

 

[tnfloorman]

A pic of my island over a "floating floor" ...
I used some 3/4" ply to make a base that the brick sits on. it's back about 1/2" from the brick face so the floor slipped under and has space to "float".
No trimming out around brick was needed

Nice job. Very important with the floating products to leave that room to expand and contract.

 

[draglink]

I disagree completely, continuing the main floor under the cabinets is not a bad idea, it is a good idea. Just because the people who installed the kitchen floor did a sub-standard job on the tile installation does not mean having the main floor under the cabinets is a bad thing. If the floor had been installed correctly the cabinets would need to be replaced long before the floor would need to be replaced and this whole situation would never have surfaced.

I cant ad much to what has been said above...all great advice. BUT on the above quoted statement :

I run a company that installs multiple floors everyday: wood, tile, vinyl and carpet. It is easier from the installers point of view to install before cabinets, but we avoid it when ever possible just because of the OPs situation.

I cant tell you the number of times we have had to replace a kitchen or bath floor due to a leak or other damage. The work and money involved would have been 1/3 to 1/2 more $$ if finished flooring ran under cabinets.

 

[James-W]

I cant ad much to what has been said above...all great advice. BUT on the above quoted statement :

I run a company that installs multiple floors everyday: wood, tile, vinyl and carpet. It is easier from the installers point of view to install before cabinets, but we avoid it when ever possible just because of the OPs situation.

I cant tell you the number of times we have had to replace a kitchen or bath floor due to a leak or other damage. The work and money involved would have been 1/3 to 1/2 more $$ if finished flooring ran under cabinets.

I am sure we can always come with a scenario where having a finished floor under kitchen cabinets poses an inconvenience. But it works both ways. What about someone who wants to revamp their kitchen and put the new cabinets in a different arrangement. Now they have no finished floor where the cabinets were and if they can’t match the flooring that was originally there (obsolete) or they don’t want to do “patch job” they end up ripping out the entire floor and starting over.

 

[draglink]

I am sure we can always come with a scenario where having a finished floor under kitchen cabinets poses an inconvenience. But it works both ways. What about someone who wants to revamp their kitchen and put the new cabinets in a different arrangement. Now they have no finished floor where the cabinets were and if they can’t match the flooring that was originally there (obsolete) or they don’t want to do “patch job” they end up ripping out the entire floor and starting over.

been in the flooring business almost 20 years and have never run into this.

on the other hand I probably have to repair/replace a floor due to damage(usually water or appliance scratches) at least once a month

 

[54FordPanel]

I chipped out 800 sq ft of tile by hand. On the 4th day, somebody suggested a air chisel. The air chisel worked terrific. If you can't get a big enough compressor to where you need it, you might try the flat blade attachments for a sawzall. I never tried mine on tile, but it should work.

Then on cutting the tile at the cabinet line, see if you can get a angle grinder in there at the toe kicks with a diamond blade. Then a edge saw like Zeke posted.

As far as the flooring under the cabinets: I put my hardwood floors under the cabinets on my last 2 remodels. Everybody has their own scenarios on why they should or why they shouldn't.

I'd just like to point out when you've got really bad wavy/out of square walls and floors, you might have cabinets 1" away from the walls once you have all your base cabinets square and plum. So how do you put down a plywood subfloor under where the cabinets are going to end up, without getting all your bases set and plum 1st?

If you just cut and put down plywood where the cabinets should end up, just measuring off the walls, you could end up with bases sitting over air, or with the plywood jutting out from under the cabinets.

That seems like it would be a problem to me. You pros may think it's a non-issue. Also, I don't see how when the kitchen floods the damage is less or more managable if there is plywood under the cabinets rather than hardwood. If my kitchen ever floods, I might change my story. My dad had a fridge leak and the plywood under their fridge was just as damaged as the floor.

I do know that I've had houses where the put up the interior walls, then put down hardwood up to the walls. And then you're screwed as far as moving the interior walls, because the floor would always show there used to be a wall there, if you could even cut little pieces of hardwood 4" long and patch the floor where the wall used to be.

 

[James-W]

been in the flooring business almost 20 years and have never run into this.

on the other hand I probably have to repair/replace a floor due to damage(usually water or appliance scratches) at least once a month

If that is what you have found, that's fine. Personally, I would never consider NOT putting finished flooring under my cabinets. Several years ago we remodeled out kitchen. We have hardwood floors in our home. When we bought the new oak cabinets we made a few changes, we installed a built-in dishwasher and left we left out some cabinets from along one wall. We use that area for setting up a small table to sit things on when we entertain and we take it down when we are finished using it. Now the thing is, our flooring was underneath the cabinets so we didn't have to try and figure out how to "patch" any flooring into the existing floor.

I suspect there are many people who are in the same boat as we were in, even though you feel differently about it. Anyway, my opinion is to put the finished floor under the cabinets. Your opinion is not to do it. The opening poster will have to decide for himself what he wants to do.

 

[tnfloorman]

Well we have 2 guys who see this everyday, who advise against it, and the op, who says he doesn't want to have to remove the cabinets. Yet we have people who want to argue with us.

 

[cleveman]

In order to remove the tile from under the cabinets, you first need to remove the cabinets.

You'll want to look at your floor and make sure it is ok for tile. Because your floor was all cracked up, it is safe to assume that something is wrong.

For the previous 100 years in this area we have used 2x10 material for floor joists to span 16', 16" on center (o.c.). and 2x8 to span 12', 16" oc. In the last 20 years, we have started sheathing this deck with 3/4" tongue & groove (t&g) osb (oriented strand board). The osb is glued down to the floor joisted and fastened with nails or screws.

You can lay tile on this floor by attaching 1/2" tilebacker with thinset mortar to the osb, then tiling.

So you want to look at your floor and see what you have and what you need.

 

[James-W]

Well we have 2 guys who see this everyday, who advise against it, and the op, who says he doesn't want to have to remove the cabinets. Yet we have people who want to argue with us.

I am not arguing about anything. I am merely explaining why my opinion is what it is. You, and the opening poster, are free to do whatever makes you happy. My experience tells me it is a good idea to have finished floors under everything because if someone decides to move things around, it doesn’t matter, the finished floor will be there. If that bothers you, I really don’t care. My opinion is what it is and I stand by that opinion.

 

[tnfloorman]

And I'm pointing out that the OP stated he didn't want to remove the cabinets.

I see your reasons for how you would do it, but me and Draglink were stating how we have seen it cause more problems than good.

 

[shoot summ]

And I'm pointing out that the OP stated he didn't want to remove the cabinets.

I see your reasons for how you would do it, but me and Draglink were stating how we have seen it cause more problems than good.

There are many more that feel the same way, with very few exceptions it makes no sense tiling or placing flooring under cabinets. "Moving things around later" never happens in my world. Do it right the first time takes precedence.

I've seen far more instance where the flooring is replaced while the cabinets remain in place. In the few instances the cabinets came up the flooring was replaced as well.

 

[red]

Ok while everyone is deciding which is better tile or not to tile under cabinet (Kitchen no bathroom yes)

Lets get into how to remove that tile . . . I had to remove tile from an existing mud floor and I used a breaker hammer. Sweet! Best $100 I ever spent on an electric tool! Did it in a few hours instead of days. You have to use a wide chisel and they make chisels specifically for tile removal.

Here's a link to what I bought-
http://www.harborfreight.com/85-amp...e-speed-sds-max-type-rotary-hammer-69334.html

 

[shoot summ]

Ok while everyone is deciding which is better tile or not to tile under cabinet (Kitchen no bathroom yes)

Lets get into how to remove that tile . . . I had to remove tile from an existing mud floor and I used a breaker hammer. Sweet! Best $100 I ever spent on an electric tool! Did it in a few hours instead of days. You have to use a wide chisel and they make chisels specifically for tile removal.

Here's a link to what I bought-
http://www.harborfreight.com/85-amp...e-speed-sds-max-type-rotary-hammer-69334.html

I use a Bosch Bulldog in hammer only mode.

On an existing mud floor you have to be careful not to dig the mud out...