This thread really has run longer than I thought it ever had a chance to. I have to say that for the most part, most are being civil towards one another and keeping it sort of with in the rules.
I have been in the repair business for many years. Behind the wrench, management, and owner. I have worked flat rate, and salary. And yes a few times I have been on the other side of the counter getting something fixed.
There are several parts of this thread that stick out to me. One is ownership side. How much it costs a shop to run and how to charge for those services. Two is the guys working there. Just reading this thread some really do not even understand whether they are paid salary, flat rate, or a combination of. Third is the customer. They come in all abilities and some have a clue and others do not.
The one thing is that every business out there needs to make a profit, other wise why do it. I think it is safe to say vehicles are fixed everyday in many different environments, by many different ways of doing business, by many different techs doing their job. It is no one size fits all.
I know first hand that there are great techs working in many areas. They are not always found at a dealership, or the specialty place on the corner.
Any business deserves to make a profit. While it is easy to say that the cost is only for the product and the person it takes to sell it. There are so many other things. Taxes, utilities, maintenance of facilities, equipment and upgrades, and the list goes on.
Just imagine if the company you worked for came though and said we are going to charge you 2% to pay you. Just imagine how up in arms people would be, but any retail establishment that accepts credit cards does that everyday. It does not matter what you are buying, or where, the minute a customer pays with a credit card, the actual cost just went up. Of coarse that 2% can change depending on the business, but I would guess that is about average.
Lets talk about tech pay. Flat rate, salary, or a combination. I am not even sure why this came up in this thread but it did. There are thousands of techs out there and how they get paid has to be on them. How hey are paid is just that and if it allows them to afford the lifestyle they choose, good for them. On the business side of things, I think most people do not even realize the paycheck dollar is just the start of what it cost the employer.
It can be as simple as uniforms provided, and as complex as being outside in what ever mother nature throws at you or working in a controlled environment, on a polished
floor.
I think book time and flat rate is sort of confusing people. It is sort of the same thing, but separate depending on what side of the counter you are on. It is true that most duties have a time guide to perform that duty. I have heard for years that manufacturers actually have an average tech do that job and that is how they come up with that. I am not so sure I really believe that. Maybe at some point they did.
I could see that as manufacturers were getting started and they maybe had one model. Not real sure they can perform that type of duty today. So many models, so many options, and to be honest the time guide lists have grown so much i am not even sure they could do it. I would guess just one model of vehicle has hundreds of hours towards the repair of such.
Some have stated it is an antiquated system. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It is not a system that is going away any time soon. It is used for warranty work, used for insurance work, and it is used every day in how techs are paid. More on that later. It is basically a system to balance the repair industry.
Of coarse no manufacturing process is perfect. It all has flaws, and that is why there is a warranty. Manufacturers have to have some kind of process for warranty. Imagine if there was none in place. They could be paying vast differences from facility to facility, for the same duty performed. Manufacturers are just limiting their exposure in the flaws of the process.
I would argue that book time is the one measure that keeps the industry sort of on track. Keeps the whole industry with a standard. Just imagine if labor to repair your car was dependent upon who opened to hood and how familiar with the product they are. Book time may or may not be fair but it is one of the few industry standards that is not going away.
Lets go on to tech pay. Salary vs flat rate (book time). First off I would say every one in the business of fixing cars really wants to fix cars. They are not getting up every day, thinking about what customer they are going to scam today. Thinking about running the wheels off of the new mustang on a test drive, or driving a clunker out to the parking lot.
No matter how the techs are getting paid, the customer and shop is basing it on book times. No shop can have a salaried tech that flags 20% production. Every person in every job out there has to produce a value to who they are working for, or they will not be working in that job very long. No matter how a tech is paid, in most cases, will not determine how he fixes vehicles. If they are going to cut corners, they are going to do it.
I would go on to say that in most cases flat rate and salary pay, or a combination of, commonly goes with how efficient the shop is. Remember the customer is paying book time (flat Rate) in all of this. The more efficient the shop is, the more hours a tech can flag. It really does not matter how they are paid.
What do I mean about efficient. Most manufacturer dealerships are very efficient. Why is that? They have a parts department on site, that most likely stocks the parts needed the most, to repair the vehicles they work on. They work on the same models, allowing them to do the same job many times. The more times you do a job the faster you get it done.
Many times in the dealerships the tech turns wrenches, the job that they are getting paid to do. There is an abundance of support staff, that lets them do their job. There are parts guys to actually get them the parts, there are service writers that talk to the customers, schedule the work. There are cashiers that take the payment. Some even have a person that does nothing but sweep up the shop.
Efficiency can be as simple as how the shop is laid out. There is a reason most of the lube techs are close to the new oil, used oil drain, and the parts counter. There is a reason the heavy duty guy is the furthest away. In most cases dealerships have enough techs, that do the work they are good at doing. The drive ability person is not changing oil, or replacing u-joints. The suspension guy is not doing a timing belt. There is enough people, doing certain tasks, that they get good at what they do.
So lets look at the other side. The most inefficient shop. That may be the one man show. The guy that works on all makes, all models. The guy that answers the phone, talks to anyone that walks in the door. Customer or parts guy. Writes estimates, invoices, pays the bills. Sweeps the shop and even shuttles customers when the leave their car.
Not saying one way is better than the other. I think just reading this thread proves that. Doing it either way, the business has to have a profit. They have to know that it is not just the parts cost or the labor cost, but all costs that they have to cover.
As far as the customer. I certainly understand what some on this thread are talking about. It is fair that you can compare a shop how ever you feel the need to.
Much of this thread has been about the pricing of shops. The truth is in most cases, price is way down the list of how common people decide to fix something. How quick can I get it done, is it one visit or three or four, location, and others.
I can say this. I have very few that ask me to explain in detail of what I charge my customers. I can likely count it on one hand how many times it happens in a year. I have no problem explaining it, and have nothing to hide. But the truth is while I do not mind it, it is just something I care not to do. I have many customers that I do not have to.
Not saying there is not times one should not question paying for something. I guess I have been fortunate that most of my customers just pay and are happy. They feel that I am fair , and I feel that they are a value to keep.
The worst customer to have is one that thinks they know more than you. Thank goodness I am in the position to fire a customer if needed.
I do realize that this is by all means a DIY forum, and does not make up the general public. But damn, how do some of you find any one that wants you as a customer. Just by reading some of the posts, there is no doubt that you do most of your own work, because no one could ever please you.
) but your going to guarantee me 75% of my current earnings to slow down and if I'm nice to you and dont make you feel sad , I can have the other 25% of my money as a bonus if I'm lucky (or something, its a bit hazy)
