gayler
Well-known member
I've seen people do this on the older ones, but how about the newer lithium ion batteries? This is on a crapsman 19.2 volt battery.
Rebuilding battery pack for cordless drill
- Thread starter gayler
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pauls_workshop
Well-known member
Hi there, read up on this link before you try anything. This was catered to Ryobi but they are same as the Craftsman, and info applies to any brand:
http://toolboyworld.com/eBay/Ryobi_Batt_Rebuild.htm
Rebuilding ni-cads is not that hard. Rebuilding lithium ions can be very dangerous. Ideally, you use a welder to do the connections. You can do it if you buy pre-made batteries with tabs already welded on and solder FAST at the tab connections. You must not heat the battery much lest it explode on you. - Paul
beamrider
Well-known member
A lot of LI-ON PACKS use batteries that have spade tabs on them, and they just unplug from the "wiring harness". If so, you can order replacement cells with the spade lugs already spot welded on, and just replace the cells without soldering.
No one should do this, because it's potentially dangerous, but I zapped my NiMH batt. pack that was completely 'dead' and not taking a charge by simply doing some Googling about this dangerous practice and running across this video promoting this crazy proceedure that I don't recommend:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Revive-Nicad-Batteries-by-Zapping-with-a-Welder/
There are all kinds of links to this hazardous activity! I used my MIG welder with a smaller wire clamped into the ground clamp and released the drive roller, zapped it a few times, barely escaping with my life, but the battery started taking a charge as normal after that 'shock treatment'! It knocks the dendrites off the battery plates or some such thing.
Very effective, but you should not do this because something or someone could get hurt!! :S Since my pack wasn't taking any charge at all anyway, I figured I had nothing to lose (other than a few fingers!) Good Luck! lol
http://www.instructables.com/id/Revive-Nicad-Batteries-by-Zapping-with-a-Welder/
There are all kinds of links to this hazardous activity! I used my MIG welder with a smaller wire clamped into the ground clamp and released the drive roller, zapped it a few times, barely escaping with my life, but the battery started taking a charge as normal after that 'shock treatment'! It knocks the dendrites off the battery plates or some such thing.
Very effective, but you should not do this because something or someone could get hurt!! :S Since my pack wasn't taking any charge at all anyway, I figured I had nothing to lose (other than a few fingers!) Good Luck! lol
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Strouty
Well-known member
I think the main issue with the lithium packs is that the replacement cells are so expensive. After the labor involved, it would be a risk that they won't even turn out as well as the originals.
agreed, the local company here pretty much stops at NiMH, and even then, the rebuilt price is more than what you can score batteries for in a Black Friday combo kit.
for the 19.2 Craftman battery packs, most any other NIMH/NICAD battery packs....
just. just go to ebay/google and search for "Sub-C batteries with tabs" and use a heavy duty 100Watt soldering iron to do your soldering. The rebuild ones will be better than the the 2200mah ones craftsman uses.... most of these sub-c are into the 3000mah to 5000mah ranges now a days. Reuse the shell, reuse that tab/connector and some hot glue to make them stay.
19.2V total / 1.2V battery = 16 sub-c cells
make sure they are matched in capacity (in miliAmpHours) mah, means all 16 sub-c have to be the same capacity for long life.
when you are soldering the tabs try not to place the soldering iron tip too long on battery to damage it.
something like this
/SUB-C-NIMH-3000MAH-RECHARGEABLE-BATTERY-CELL
or
Like this
just. just go to ebay/google and search for "Sub-C batteries with tabs" and use a heavy duty 100Watt soldering iron to do your soldering. The rebuild ones will be better than the the 2200mah ones craftsman uses.... most of these sub-c are into the 3000mah to 5000mah ranges now a days. Reuse the shell, reuse that tab/connector and some hot glue to make them stay.
19.2V total / 1.2V battery = 16 sub-c cells
make sure they are matched in capacity (in miliAmpHours) mah, means all 16 sub-c have to be the same capacity for long life.
when you are soldering the tabs try not to place the soldering iron tip too long on battery to damage it.
something like this
/SUB-C-NIMH-3000MAH-RECHARGEABLE-BATTERY-CELL
or
Like this
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Bigplum
Well-known member
We had a lithium button cell go nuclear at work , it was only a tiny memory backup battery but it cleared the workshop, it created a perfect mushroom cloud too
The tabbed cells should be ok if you work quick , I'd wear a face shield though
The tabbed cells should be ok if you work quick , I'd wear a face shield though
beamrider
Well-known member
I shouldn't have said "a lot", in retrospect, as I've only seen Porter Cable 18v Li-on packs, which have the spade lugs. Why do you think they would pose a problem?
4x4gearhead
Well-known member
The interstate battery Ni-cad rebuilds I have at work have the tabs welded. I was told they do them all like that.
sdguy55
Well-known member
I did not realize rebuilding li-ion battery's was so dangerous
i know my local guy and he is starting to do some makita and milwalkee. ive got a few dewalts that have died and he is scared to mess with them. i dont know why. he does all my ni cad stuff for cheap. the ones he has rebuilt will go longer than a new dewalt of the same mah.
pauls_workshop
Well-known member
Wow, this thread has been taking off since my early post above.
So to summarize in general, if you want to try to replace a cell or two in a pack, be sure to buy cells with the tabs pre-welded on and solder FAST only on the end of the tab for your connections. Lithium Ion is in a different ballpark than nicad and much more dangerous. Do not try this unless you are electronically dangerous, know how to solder well and fast, and can be safe about it. Use a face shield and eye protection always.
Many times a lithium pack only has one or two bad cells in it and the rest are fine. If you just replace those one or two with new, you can be good for another 3 years out on that battery. The best way to do it is to acquire IDENTICAL cells from the same manufacturer of the very same battery pack, this way there are no cell incompatibilies to worry about, which can become very dangerous if present.
I've done this myself to a lithium pack and soldered the tabs in and replaced a few bad cells in the pack. It can be done, but there are other things to know too. Each cell in the pack has to be at the same voltage withiin +/- 0.1 v before you put that pack back together and recharge it in the charger. So you have to drain those cells that are high or charge only those cells that are low to get in that tight range. If you don't do this, the pack will not charge properly when done, even with new cells in it. Draining is pretty easy but charging is not. See link here:
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Cell+Re-balance+of+Ryobi+One++18V+Li-ion+Battery+(130501002)/13286
So this is far more tricky than you may have thought. Can be done, but only by pros or those who know what they are doing. If you screw up, you can have an explosion on your hands or fire. For 99.95% of the population, doing anything to a lithium ion cell is a VERY BAD idea. The 0.05% left are either crazy or an engineer like me (or both as the case may be sometimes)! Yes, I do projects like this for fun!
Ni cad are much safer and can be tried with less expertise. Stick with that if you want to try it out, but that is not simple either. Be sure the whole pack uses the same cells in it if you replace some there. - Paul
So to summarize in general, if you want to try to replace a cell or two in a pack, be sure to buy cells with the tabs pre-welded on and solder FAST only on the end of the tab for your connections. Lithium Ion is in a different ballpark than nicad and much more dangerous. Do not try this unless you are electronically dangerous, know how to solder well and fast, and can be safe about it. Use a face shield and eye protection always.
Many times a lithium pack only has one or two bad cells in it and the rest are fine. If you just replace those one or two with new, you can be good for another 3 years out on that battery. The best way to do it is to acquire IDENTICAL cells from the same manufacturer of the very same battery pack, this way there are no cell incompatibilies to worry about, which can become very dangerous if present.
I've done this myself to a lithium pack and soldered the tabs in and replaced a few bad cells in the pack. It can be done, but there are other things to know too. Each cell in the pack has to be at the same voltage withiin +/- 0.1 v before you put that pack back together and recharge it in the charger. So you have to drain those cells that are high or charge only those cells that are low to get in that tight range. If you don't do this, the pack will not charge properly when done, even with new cells in it. Draining is pretty easy but charging is not. See link here:
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Cell+Re-balance+of+Ryobi+One++18V+Li-ion+Battery+(130501002)/13286
So this is far more tricky than you may have thought. Can be done, but only by pros or those who know what they are doing. If you screw up, you can have an explosion on your hands or fire. For 99.95% of the population, doing anything to a lithium ion cell is a VERY BAD idea. The 0.05% left are either crazy or an engineer like me (or both as the case may be sometimes)! Yes, I do projects like this for fun!
Ni cad are much safer and can be tried with less expertise. Stick with that if you want to try it out, but that is not simple either. Be sure the whole pack uses the same cells in it if you replace some there. - Paul
And there in lies the problem with rebuilding packs. Look at the prices of good quality cells, $3.30 each plus postage. That's over $55 for a 19.2V pack and about $70 for a 24V pack. Times that by two if you want two packs and you can easily get a complete new kit with drill/driver and charger and two Li-Ion packs for less money!
And there's the other side of the problem. If you get the cheap cells ebayed from HK like in your second link then there really is no guaranty that they meet the mA-hr stamped on them. My experience with these ebayed cells is that they invariably don't meet their supposed specifications. Think of it this way, perhaps one person in a thousand that buys those will have to equipment or motivation to accurately measure their true capacity. So they can basically put any number on there that they like. Trust me that those numbers are all but meaningless. I've bough several 2700 mA-Hr nicads from various cheap hk vendors, and none of them have been more than 1500 true capacity. Those cheap 6000 mA-hr ones in your second link are notoriously bad according to some reviews I've seen (though I haven't personally tested them).
The other thing is that ma-hrs aren't everything. You have to consider the cells internal resistance and it's ability to supply peak current. I've rebuilt packs with cheap cells and though they've worked, they've not been able to provide the same peak torque as the originals because the batteries just couldn't deliver the same peak current. I also overheated the last pack I rebuild with cheap cells under what was really quite modest usage. One of the cells overheated and melted it's little plastic jacket, causing a short which nearly burnt up the whole pack.
TBH I used to be a great fan of rebuilding old nicad stuff. But I recently bought a whole new kit (drill/driver batteries and charger, with two 18V Li-Ion packs) and it cost about the same as what it recently cost me to rebuild a couple of my old NiCad packs. So now I'm definitely having second thoughts. I'm actually starting to think I pretty much wasted time and money with them. grrr
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pauls_workshop
Well-known member
I think it is more practical to only rebuild a pack or part of a pack if you have two packs that are bad. Then take some good cells from one and use in the other to restore it to full goodness. That works. But use the very same brand and product to guarantee cell compatibility and safety. Normally and if you don't have any replacement equivalent cells, most of the time better off just buying a new pack from the manufacturer. After you've used your packs about 4-5 years, then you may have some reason to rebuild some of them with parts from the others. - Paul
Seagoon
Well-known member
To go slightly off topic, I have a 12v cordless drill with a dead battery and all the cells are dead. Is it feasible to toss the cells, solder cables to the terminals in the drill and run it off a 12v car battery?
As any of you who are electricians will realize, I have very little clue about this sort of thing
As any of you who are electricians will realize, I have very little clue about this sort of thing
krdiesel03
Well-known member
I have rebuilt a few 19.2 packs that had only one bad cell in them, Wore a face shield and a welders jacket. But the cell on ebay with tabs, dremel out the old one, and good as new.
In the past you would pick up the 19.2 li packs on ebay for around 5 each. most of them had only one bad cell, So would swap cells around and have 4 good packs for $25 total.
In the past you would pick up the 19.2 li packs on ebay for around 5 each. most of them had only one bad cell, So would swap cells around and have 4 good packs for $25 total.
pauls_workshop
Well-known member
To go slightly off topic, I have a 12v cordless drill with a dead battery and all the cells are dead. Is it feasible to toss the cells, solder cables to the terminals in the drill and run it off a 12v car battery?
As any of you who are electricians will realize, I have very little clue about this sort of thing
Hi, yes, you can easily do that if you want to. Piece of cake. - Paul
pauls_workshop
Well-known member
Welcome to the 0.05% club pal ! - Paul
I dont know about rebuilding lithium packs.......could be dangerous. Electric radio controlled cars are a hobby of mine. As an 7th grader I was putting together nicad packs. I would not touch a lithium pack. I was going to rebuild a 12 volt nicad pack for my grease gun, but the case is bad. End of that one. Nicad is simple, but seeing what a lithium pack does when it goes..........scary. I know rc lithium is different, its more volitile.....but still. I would not want to try. Some guys (kids) are buying tool batteries and making rc packs with them, but some have had things burn up in the process.
Seagoon
Well-known member
Thanks
krdiesel03
Well-known member
pauls_workshop
Well-known member
Oh, read my post up above. I had said 99.95% of people should not try messing with lithium cells for safety reasons. So you and I are exceptions for sure and in that 0.05% that can. - Paul
lithium cells are safe as long as you follow the Charge rate / method correctly. most ppl that burn / explode them up tends to be the ones that over charge them with too much current or too much voltage or the wrong chargers. It's not your lead acid battery handling. Heck I think NIMH had the same problems when it first come out back in the days 1990s. There are fancy chargers that is made for lithium ion batteries that will charge and balance each cells you can get. but then lets not talk about cost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery
UART:
Those links are just for pic of what the sub-c with tab looks like and they do exist for people that don't have a laser battery welder but wanted to rebuild their packs. As in anything that is bought over seas or foreign country, it's always buyers beware. The same consumer protection doesn't seems to apply on purchases over seas. Sometimes even in states. As for cost..... it's just a DIY thing, if you are looking into the economic of things, cheaper to buy with coupon or rebuild / build new with higher capacity DIY. It's all dependent on who you talked to, where you are located to the resources.
Those links are just for pic of what the sub-c with tab looks like and they do exist for people that don't have a laser battery welder but wanted to rebuild their packs. As in anything that is bought over seas or foreign country, it's always buyers beware. The same consumer protection doesn't seems to apply on purchases over seas. Sometimes even in states. As for cost..... it's just a DIY thing, if you are looking into the economic of things, cheaper to buy with coupon or rebuild / build new with higher capacity DIY. It's all dependent on who you talked to, where you are located to the resources.