Recessed mount ceiling lights

[juddspaintballs]

Sorry, this isn't for a garage. I'm building a house. The first floor is wide open except the stair case and I want to do almost exclusively recessed mounted ceiling lights. They must be dimmable and LED. The area I'm working with is 36x36 roughly. It will have a living room area, dining area, kitchen, and a desk area for the kids to do homework. There are two north, two east facing, a french door and kitchen window facing west, and a garage separation wall to the south. The floor joists for the 2nd floor are 14" TJI's, so I have plenty of depth to put traditional can light fixtures in.

Now here's the question. Do I go with traditional cans and LED retrofit conversions or the LED lights that you just cut a circle in the drywall and the light clips to the drywall directly with a driver tacked up against a joist nearby?

Can lights all get mounted to the joists and wired together before drywall goes up. Getting them in a grid or at least straight is relatively easy to do. If there are any issues in the future, LED retrofits can be swapped easily or even traditional bulbs can be dropped in place if necessary. A can plus a retrofit is more expensive than just buying the LED fixtures that you just circle a hole in drywall and pop them in place.

These LED recessed fixtures are significantly cheaper than buying a can light plus a retrofit LED for it. Install is as simple as running the wire in the ceiling before drywall, putting a laser line on the ceiling, and drilling holes on the intervals I want. These lights can mount literally anywhere, even if the joist is crossing the hole. I'm not seeing much from the major brands like GE and Phillips for these lights, so longevity might be an issue with the drivers, but the relatively low cost and ease of replacement is appealing as well. If I go a different route with lighting in the future, these holes can be patched easily enough and new fixtures can easily be put in elsewhere.


What are your thoughts?

 

[mrbill55]

I've got roughly 35-40 of these (not from Home Depo, but pretty close to these) being installed during our upcoming home remodel

HALO 6 in. Selectable CCT for Use in New Construction, Remodel and Retrofit Installation, Integrated LED Downlight HLB6LSFS5 - The Home Depot

Enhance your home's curb appeal or transform any space with HALO's HLB recessed direct mount downlights! You can install these lights virtually anywhere, thanks to their canless design and ultra-slim,

www.homedepot.com

 

[juddspaintballs]

Those would work. They'd still be cheaper than cans + a retrofit. Which way should I go, though?

 

[ripperd]

You can also put in regular square fan/light/pendant boxes, and then put these flush mount types on them. That is what I have in our main floor.

LED Disk Light - 7 in. - 945 Lumens - 3000K - White finish

Multiple high-powered LEDs illuminate an acrylic diffuser uniformly without socket shadows, which are common in conventional flush mounts.This multi-purpose Wet Location, Energy Star Rated flush mount can be mounted without a transformer on a ceiling or on a wall in a junction box, and also...

www.beeslighting.com

 

[mrbill55]

Those would work. They'd still be cheaper than cans + a retrofit. Which way should I go, though?

When discussions took place with my builder, we spent a bit of time going over these options. Old school would have been to install new cans in the drop ceiling, then the fixtures of our choice. With the canless system, the cans are not needed, and the canless units will actually be more energy efficient, and easier to insulate as we bring a 1968 home up to "Energy star" (or better) standards. Better than wrapping the old cans in insulation wrap, then having to spray foam them to seal them up tight. We plan to set them to "Daylight", which is a crisp, true white, energy savings will give me a 5-7 year ROI, along with the LED conversions in the rest of the home before we are done. Plus, as we age a little more, I won't have to deal with changing light fixtures, as these should last 20+ years, at which time, I'll be over 80.

Bill S.

 

[mike93lx]

I've used a lot of wafers, with overall good success.

A few have not pulled tight to the ceiling and there is really no adjustment. Also, I will only ever buy the style that are slightly recessed (vs the ones that are flat). The recessed ones look a ton better, but can't be placed over a joist.

Real cans eat up a ton of space and when you install a led trim, don't look different than the wafers. If you don't want a real bulb, I would just do wafers

 

[dante2]

We did the kitchen with the wafer lights coming and from a 4ft florescent fixture it made a huge difference. Also did the wafer's in the master bedroom. All we had for lighting is a ceiling fan and a couple of lamps. Had to install a dimmer to turn down the Sun, felt like we've been living in a dark cave. I plan on using some in the garage and using the 8ft lights out in the shop.

 

[Steve W.]

I am in the process of a remodel right now. Have installed 6 wafers in the living room and another 8 in the kitchen and dining room. I have another 8 sitting on the shelf for the family room when we get to that room.

Got ours at Menard's. Not sure if they are available individually, I saw them in 2-packs and 4-packs for about $10 per light. One thing to watch for is LUMENS. I got a 2-pack and a 4-pack for the living room, then found out that the units in the 4-pack were 800 lumens each, but the units in the 2-pack were 1000 lumens each. Small enough difference that it's hard to see, but something to watch for, anyway.

.

 

[mike93lx]

Hello, we are buying a new construction home. We need to choose the lighting and we are confused if we need pot lights or recessed lights. With the new led recess lights so thin and flat, we can't see much difference from pot lights. May be I am wrong. But pot lights are twice as expensive from builder than a light outlet and recessed light fixture. Has anyone did this for kitchen and living rooms?

Wafer led's dont use an outlet. They get wired to the transformer box directly.

I doubt I will ever install a can again. The bulk is not worth it and they are hard to insulate.

 

[billconner]

I did our kitchen 4 years ago - 10 of the "wafer" lights - and we are very pleased. Slightly recesed. Easy install. Fished wire. Dim as well as any LEDs.

Lithonia Lighting 4JBK RD 30K 90CRI MW M6 3000K 90 CRI 4" Baffle Canless Kit, 4 in, Matte White https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D2RGSCJ/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[acer66]

If it gets inspected you might have to get mounting bracket like I did for my wafers.

 

[billconner]

If it gets inspected you might have to get mounting bracket like I did for my wafers.

Interesting. No issue for my inspector. Is there a code basis or just local preference?

 

[WisJim]

I used a couple of dozen wafer type LED fixtures mounted to shallow boxes and 3 years later I've had no problems. I got mine on Amazon. Shop and garage.

 

[acer66]

Interesting. No issue for my inspector. Is there a code basis or just local preference?

Honestly not sure, I asked the inspector at one point and he said he wanted them.
Not expensive and was happy to have em as guide from my drywall cutting tool.

But thank you for bringing that up and I will see if I can ask him about that next time.

 

[Fav Onefour]

Lights eventually burn out. It's a part of life, so plan on that happening.
That is the biggest disadvantage on integrated fixtures. I've had a few occasions where the integrated style were already discontinued. It really bakes my cookies when I'm replacing a whole set because I couldn't find an exact match with a burned out fixture.

I do like the ease of install and the low profile is nice too. I will probably use more when they get these integrated fixtures standardized.

 

[cybrdyke]

Interesting. No issue for my inspector. Is there a code basis or just local preference?

Mounting of driver box is required in new construction, but not required in retrofit or replacement.
CD

 

[billconner]

Mounting of driver box is required in new construction, but not required in retrofit or replacement.
CD

Of course. Thank you.

 

[mike93lx]

If it gets inspected you might have to get mounting bracket like I did for my wafers.

For the driver box or the fixture?

 

[Gozo]

Lights eventually burn out. It's a part of life, so plan on that happening.
That is the biggest disadvantage on integrated fixtures. I've had a few occasions where the integrated style were already discontinued. It really bakes my cookies when I'm replacing a whole set because I couldn't find an exact match with a burned out fixture.

This.
I’m betting on whatever bulb technology the future brings (at least until I’m dead and gone - don’t care after that) there’ll be a PAR bulb format with an Edison base.
Also, if the room decor or purpose changes; easy-peasy to swap out for a different color temperature or brightness bulb.

 

[mike93lx]

This.
I’m betting on whatever bulb technology the future brings (at least until I’m dead and gone - don’t care after that) there’ll be a PAR bulb format with an Edison base.
Also, if the room decor or purpose changes; easy-peasy to swap out for a different color temperature or brightness bulb.

The Wafers often have selectable color temp and I like using dimmers everywhere anyway, but certainly to each their own

 

[acer66]

For the driver box or the fixture?

Both in a way, first you mount the driver box to the bracket and then you or I did use the hole as a guide for drywall cut out.

I do not have a wafer retail box in front of me but I now mean to remember it said for new construction use optional bracket.

But again if that is code or just a sales pitch I am not sure.


I think this is the one I used.

I did some more digging and found this about the mounting frames under compliance in the pic below.

 

[mike93lx]

Both in a way, first you mount the driver box to the bracket and then you or I did use the hole as a guide for drywall cut out.

I do not have a wafer retail box in front of me but I now mean to remember it said for new construction use optional bracket.

But again if that is code or just a sales pitch I am not sure.


I think this is the one I used.

I did some more digging and found this about the mounting frames under compliance in the pic below.

Thanks

 

[Denwood]

Lights eventually burn out. It's a part of life, so plan on that happening.
That is the biggest disadvantage on integrated fixtures. I've had a few occasions where the integrated style were already discontinued. It really bakes my cookies when I'm replacing a whole set because I couldn't find an exact match with a burned out fixture.

I do like the ease of install and the low profile is nice too. I will probably use more when they get these integrated fixtures standardized.

Exactly why on the last few renovations I used a shallow GU10 fixture and Tradfri GU10 LED bulbs from IKEA. The bulbs are replaceable, and can be aimed within about 15 degrees or so. One of my criteria for lighting was that the system integrated with Hubitat so that they are automated as well. For $9/bulb, it's hard to beat that setup. The IC rated GU10 fixtures just require a 3" hole and run about $19/each in a 10 pack: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Globe-E...Kit-with-Contractor-s-10-Pack-90953/206790082



These zigbee LED bulbs have an integrated driver and the small GU10 fixture gives them some space to cool effectively. I've tested dimming and power saving is pretty linear so if the system dims them 50%, power use drops about 50%, and heat generated drops quite dramatically. The automation system runs them usually from 90% to 10% brightness depending on ambient light conditions. They are also wired into a manual wall switch so you can always override automation. Phillips HUE also has a few GU10 bulb options but they are much more expensive. These are nice if you want to play with colors for a kid's room etc. My daughter's rooms use the HUE color bulbs and they are constantly playing around with mood lighting, colors etc.

If you're doing cabinet lighting, the IKEA Tradfri stuff is priced reasonably and integrate nicely with their GU10 bulbs as well. The IKEA Tradfri cabinet lights use a driver that is a steal when you consider it has zigbee automation control built in and can manage dimming etc. via the automation system just like the GU10 bulbs.

I'm using 3 of these 30W Tradfri LED drivers ($30 each) to manage all of the kitchen cabinet and under cabinet lighting.

TRÅDFRI Driver for wireless control, smart gray, 30 W - IKEA CA

TRÅDFRI Driver for wireless control, smart gray, 30 W Now it's really easy for anyone to use smart lighting. This driver allows you to connect your integrated lighting from IKEA – turn on, turn off and dim so you always have the right light and mood at home.

www.ikea.com

If you are doing these in an insulated attic, ya, you need to box them, and spray foam the box to air seal them. That said, it was worth the trouble knowing I won't have a mismatched setup that happens when an integrated driver fails..and they fail a lot more often than you'd think.

Being able to aim the lights a bit allows you to play around a bit with lighting as well. This is a low ceiling basement retrofit that I did before the kitchen project:

 

[dscheidt]

The Wafers often have selectable color temp and I like using dimmers everywhere anyway, but certainly to each their own

Even if you get the color to match, the dimming curve won't. might be close enough to not bother you, but it annoys the heck ouf of me.

 

[mike93lx]

Even if you get the color to match, the dimming curve won't. might be close enough to not bother you, but it annoys the heck ouf of me.

And the same can happen with led bulbs

 

[dscheidt]

And the same can happen with led bulbs

yes, but it's easier (and cheaper!) to change a room's worth of bulbs than of bulbs than a rooms worth of fixtures.

 

[mike93lx]

yes, but it's easier (and cheaper!) to change a room's worth of bulbs than of bulbs than a rooms worth of fixtures.

No argument.

I look at this stuff as long last enough that I'm not going to worry about it much. But that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile consideration

 

[dave*99]

We used 51 of these in my house during construction. Mounted the driver boxes before drywall and cut the drywall out following the hole in the steel rough in bracket after install.

We used Sylvania puck lights. I had some failures. I have about 8 spares. They are easy to service. I can pull the driver box out of the hole in the ceiling after lifting it off the nail hanger. Life moves on. If I run out I'll figure it out. I couldn't see putting in cans just to have access to an Edison base. So much stuff is disposable these days......

Halco 89104 ProLED Select Direct Fit Slim Downlight Rough In Pan 4" Round FSDLS/RP4RD

Halco 89104 ProLED Select Direct Fit Slim Downlight Rough In Pan 4" Round FSDLS/RP4RD

www.ktool.net

 

[dave*99]

Also consider sconces, table lamps, wall wash lights in ceilings etc.

Down lighting alone sounds great but there are some rooms where softer indirect lighting is needed.

Pay special attention to ceiling lights located between your main seating position and the television. The lights can be distracting. I was in a friends house that had bright pucks in the living room running full blast while the television was on. They didn't mind, but I found it hard to watch the TV.

I used 2 eyeball lights on the sides of the TV in my house. They are aimed at artwork on the wall and run on a dimmer. No glare on the TV screen.

 

[mike93lx]

Also consider sconces, table lamps, wall wash lights in ceilings etc.

Down lighting alone sounds great but there are some rooms where softer indirect lighting is needed.

Pay special attention to ceiling lights located between your main seating position and the television. The lights can be distracting. I was in a friends house that had bright pucks in the living room running full blast while the television was on. They didn't mind, but I found it hard to watch the TV.

I used 2 eyeball lights on the sides of the TV in my house. They are aimed at artwork on the wall and run on a dimmer. No glare on the TV screen.

I had always just bought the standard Wafers and in a thread here, I got a lot of strong advice to think outside of that.

I added 5 pucks and a ceiling fixture to a sitting room that only had a switched outlet. Used five eyeball "Wafers" plus a center hanging fixture and it worked out great. Washing the walls with light makes it a lot more pleasant

 

[dave*99]

I had always just bought the standard Wafers and in a thread here, I got a lot of strong advice to think outside of that.

I added 5 pucks and a ceiling fixture to a sitting room that only had a switched outlet. Used five eyeball "Wafers" plus a center hanging fixture and it worked out great. Washing the walls with light makes it a lot more pleasant

Yes. I also find that if I can see the bright lens of a ceiling light between myself and the TV, I find it distracting. At a minimum, give that some thought when setting up the switches for ceiling lights. At least be able to dim of turn off lights that may be in that path and distracting.

The wall wash eyeball lights in the ceiling work well for me too.