Recommend a path to replace water filter / softener

[joseywales]

I had another post, where I had my tankless Navien repaired, and the topic of my water softener arose. Though not the reason for reduction of hot water, the Navien's Heat Exchanger Outlet Pipe rotted two tiny holes in 7 years. Both mostly self-clotted with sediment.

Anyway, we have a softener, then a smaller filter feeding the kitchen only. Still, water everywhere leaves a white residue, dishwasher leaves glasses cloudy, and I get some orange residue if water sits to long in the toilet or stall shower floor.

The plumber, for a local company, tested the water, but concerns me because he said orange is Chlorine and I believe it's iron. With regard to the Navien, he seemed excellent, but I'm a but concerned about moving forward with replacing my softener. After several follow ups, he's insists that what he recommended will solve all of the issues.

I agree, I'd like to remove the smaller filter and have a combination softener and carbon style filter. I think it's the only way to prevent stains everywhere, so I'm not against replacing, instead of servicing the existing unit. I currently the salt tub and the softener in the same oversized closet, but adding anything else (like double tanks), wouldn't fit. So I don't think servicing this unit and adding another filter to compliment it would fit. Am I wrong?

I've seen some crazy prices posted by folks here and he's quoting $3,500, which isn't insane. His own admission, this is plug n' play for a new system, so he discounted it. I'm sure it's about $1,500 of material.

I currently have a tank and control unit made by Master - that's the only label. I might call that installer and ask for solutions. I do know that Master regenerates on time. We have 3-4 folks living here, on different schedules, so not sure if timed or water flow generation is better?

Any advice is welcome. I'm not rushing into it this time. As far as installing myself. I'm not totally against it, but what is a reasonable all-in price installed by a plumber?

 

[dcg9381]

The plumber, for a local company, tested the water

Can you post up the results of his test? No plumbing outfits here have the equipment necessary to do a proper water test. Gotta send it to a lab.

I used to use Stephens Ecology, but they don't seem to be testing any more. I did find this:

Well Water Testing

Most rural residents rely on private wells for their daily water needs. While private well owners benefit from well construction regulations, they do not benefit from the day-to-day oversight of…

www3.uwsp.edu

, but concerns me because he said orange is Chlorine and I believe it's iron.

I think you're right.

I agree, I'd like to remove the smaller filter and have a combination softener and carbon style filter. I think it's the only way to prevent stains everywhere, so I'm not against replacing, instead of servicing the existing unit. I currently the salt tub and the softener in the same oversized closet, but adding anything else (like double tanks), wouldn't fit. So I don't think servicing this unit and adding another filter to compliment it would fit. Am I wrong?

Media filters won't get dissolved solids. Get a proper water test then run it by a vendor that knows water. I've bought from these guys before.

I've seen some crazy prices posted by folks here and he's quoting $3,500, which isn't insane. His own admission, this is plug n' play for a new system, so he discounted it. I'm sure it's about $1,500 of material.

$1500 should buy you a good system with a Clack or Fleck valve. There is typically "massive" mark up on this hardware (at least around here) - by about 100% or more.

We have 3-4 folks living here, on different schedules, so not sure if timed or water flow generation is better?

Modern valves do both. You need to know the hardness / PPM of your water to setup the filter (so it can calculate regen).

If your filter is "old" it may be that the media is worn out.

I'm not totally against it, but what is a reasonable all-in price installed by a plumber?

Good luck there. You seem to have good grasp of the work involved.

 

[PCustoms]

Hey look, new thread!

My assumption is your plumber probably use some test strips as a hardness rating of 1 to 12 it's not typically how water hardness should be represented.

Starting from scratch with a proper test and then consulting with a filtration company unfortunately is going to be the way to go here

 

[joseywales]

ok. Some clarification. The plumber used a kit, not strips, but again, it's either limited or a parlor trick.

The ppm was 1.45 (but that's from the water company, not my faucet.

Yes, the resin or media is likely worn out (7 years), but we had water issues almost from the start of that softener. It softened well, but the sperate Everpure H-300-NXT provided good drinking water, I don't that really help up against the issues either, which probably killed my ice maker as well.

I did call the original installer, and want to see if they can provide detailed test results and suggestions, but will also view that link provided above - didn't seem cost prohibitive there

 

[PCustoms]

@joseywales what county are you in?

 

[joseywales]

Can you post up the results of his test? No plumbing outfits here have the equipment necessary to do a proper water test. Gotta send it to a lab.

I used to use Stephens Ecology, but they don't seem to be testing any more. I did find this:

Well Water Testing

Most rural residents rely on private wells for their daily water needs. While private well owners benefit from well construction regulations, they do not benefit from the day-to-day oversight of…

www3.uwsp.edu

I just found it for PA and my county office. I'm calling them now.

I'll update as I go.

Thank you both!

 

[joseywales]

@joseywales what county are you in?

Ugh...my call was a dead end, because they only test well water. I'm in Montgomery County

 

[dcg9381]

Ugh...my call was a dead end, because they only test well water. I'm in Montgomery County

Can you tell them it's well water? Seems silly unless they're collecting data on specific wells.

 

[pcmeiners]

Look into a Katalox Light@ filter, oxidizes and filters heavy metals, manganese and both forms of iron, ferric and ferrous iron, and radionuclides . You mention a couple holes in you piping, perhaps your water is acidic, which would require a calcium carbonate filter to raise the PH , test for that.
Katalox light replaces salt brine for iron/other metal removal, only back-washing is needed, last 7-10 years before replacement. Katalox Light is a catalyst, which does not add any chemical to the water.
As to water testing, unless your will to spend hundreds, the results will only give you the major water contaminants, many inorganic contaminates are not tested for. To find most contaminants you would need to spend > $1000 on tests
For peace of mind, a sufficient large tank system comprising of Katatlox Light and activated charcoal is needed.
DIY is relatively easy. My system has a very large pre-filter for particles of iron and manganese, an aeration tank, (2) 10x54" Katalox Light tanks, (2) 10x54" activated charcoal tanks, (2)UV lamps and (2) 20" cartridge filters lamps

 

[joseywales]

Can you tell them it's well water? Seems silly unless they're collecting data on specific wells.

I ended up with the PA DEP and their kit is $10, but only looking for bacteria - so well water testing. They provided me regional test sites, but so far, they're only local water companies???? Odd. I'll keep chasing

 

[dcg9381]

I ended up with the PA DEP and their kit is $10, but only looking for bacteria - so well water testing. They provided me regional test sites, but so far, they're only local water companies???? Odd. I'll keep chasing

Yea, you don't need coliform or bacteria.
Here's a list of labs:

https://apps.ecology.wa.gov/laboratorysearch/appfiles/AllAccreditedLabListInternet.pdf

This testing ran me between $100-$200 about 4 years ago.. Sorta the going price.

 

[PCustoms]

Yea, you don't need coliform or bacteria.
Here's a list of labs:

https://apps.ecology.wa.gov/laboratorysearch/appfiles/AllAccreditedLabListInternet.pdf

This testing ran me between $100-$200 about 4 years ago.. Sorta the going price.

Overnighting a water sample from PA to WA seems unnecessary

 

[dcg9381]

Overnighting a water sample from PA to WA seems unnecessary

I think it depends on what you're testing for. Things like bacteria and coli-form are "time sensitive" and the test kits come with ice to keep things cold, so that's why you need to ship quickly. Non-biological tests, maybe unnecessary... Dunno.

 

[joseywales]

He might mean, why can't I find somewhere closer. My county sent me to the state, but I have the original installer coming tomorrow, at no charge. They say they'll "test", but I'm going to press him and see what comes of it

 

[Sumboodie]

The orange isn't unusual.

Had it everywhere I've lived, on well and public water.

Hardness of 1.45ppm is very soft water. Do you mean 145?
The water at home is fairly hard, around 340 ppm

 

[larry4406]

I think I would filter before running thru a softener. I’m no expert.

If I use a 30 micron filter (no softener) I get a slight orange stain on the toilet bowls. When I use a 5 micron filter I get nothing.

So I use 5 micron filters.

Our water is hard per testing. A softener is a future addition. It’s “on the list”!

 

[joseywales]

The orange isn't unusual.

Had it everywhere I've lived, on well and public water.

Hardness of 1.45ppm is very soft water. Do you mean 145?
The water at home is fairly hard, around 340 ppm

Honestly, I'm not really concerned with the orange, because water has to sit for it to occur, though the shower stall floor does stain if we won't squeegee the water down (yes, the pitch is probably not steep enough). My overall thought on the orange was, I don't want to spend $3,000 and have any issues. If, however, $1,500 solves all other issues, then I'm fine.

Nitrate ppm was 1.45 if that's what you're referring to. He didn't give me a hardness reading, other than to say that hardness was about 1 through the softener and 12 without the softener. I'm really hoping the folks tomorrow with take a sample and use a lab, otherwise I keep searching for a lab

 

[joseywales]

I think I would filter before running thru a softener. I’m no expert.

If I use a 30 micron filter (no softener) I get a slight orange stain on the toilet bowls. When I use a 5 micron filter I get nothing.

So I use 5 micron filters.

Our water is hard per testing. A softener is a future addition. It’s “on the list”!

Be careful. We installed a softener and put the filter "on the list". That was 7years ago We were drowning the basement remodel, tankless heater and new HVAC installation, so **** was adding up quick.

 

[larry4406]

Be careful. We installed a softener and put the filter "on the list". That was 7years ago We were drowning the basement remodel, tankless heater and new HVAC installation, so **** was adding up quick.

Read again

The filter is installed. We use 5 micron.

The softener is "on the list"

We have a tanked heat pump water heater and heat pump for HVAC.

 

[joseywales]

Read again

The filter is installed. We use 5 micron.

The softener is "on the list"

We have a tanked heat pump water heater and heat pump for HVAC.

I read it correctly. I was just joking that the list can drag on longer than either of us expected!

 

[joseywales]

The original installer of the softener came by today. The unit is 11 years old and he's recommending replacement, mostly because this unit doesn't have a carbon filter section. The unit he'll recommend will have resin and carbon. He said the Hardness of 12, then measured to 1, was likely a per gallon measurement, because most of their kits don't measure ppm.

He thought the Heater Exchange Outlet pipe erosion would have been due to high acidity, but it measured about 8-9.

The fridge tray showing mineral stains makes sense, because we bypassed the softener and used that smaller filter. I guess that filter gave up the ghost a while ago.

Attached is my current tank. If I could plug n' play, I'd install a unit anyone can recommend. I would reroute the fridge to take drinking water directly from the softener, since it will have carbon as well. Is that a bad idea?

 

[P0234]

I've used ETR labs for water testing, they were really good. Turn around is under a week. That said, if you have someone you know that has a pool, they have a chlorine test kit. Anything up to 2ppm is fairly normal at times though I think most utilities shoot for 0.5. Its legal and "safe" to drink up to 4ppm, which is higher than most people run pools!

 

[Packard V8]

The original installer of the softener came by today. The unit is 11 years old and he's recommending replacement, mostly because this unit doesn't have a carbon filter section. The unit he'll recommend will have resin and carbon. He said the Hardness of 12, then measured to 1, was likely a per gallon measurement, because most of their kits don't measure ppm.

Flushing your softener tank and installing new resin is an easy morning's work and will cost less than $200. Once you've got that back up and running, then talk to others in the area as to how they've solve the smaller problems. A couple of satisfied customers is better than all the tests and over-priced whizz-bangs.

OT, but a reason to trust but verify those selling water systems, I just helped move out an older woman who'd been sold a $5,000 whole house water treatment system. When we were clearing out the basement, I noticed it was valved off-line. Couldn't get a clue from her as to who might have done that or why, but the $5k was long gone and the system appeared to never have been used.

jack vines

 

[dcg9381]

Flushing your softener tank and installing new resin is an easy morning's work and will cost less than $200. Once you've got that back up and running, then talk to others in the area as to how they've solve the smaller problems. A couple of satisfied customers is better than all the tests and over-priced whizz-bangs.

This. After 10 years, the resin is likely shot. This could be root cause of your issue. As long as your time/valve is working, no reason to replace a "working" (and properly sized) system. If your incoming water is 145 PPM hardness, that water is not very hard and can be handled by a reasonable size softener.

City water here does NOT stain red. IMHO that's iron. What type of mineral deposits / color are you seeing on fixtures?

OT, but a reason to trust but verify those selling water systems, I just helped move out an older woman who'd been sold a $5,000 whole house water treatment system. When we were clearing out the basement, I noticed it was valved off-line. Couldn't get a clue from her as to who might have done that or why, but the $5k was long gone and the system appeared to never have been used.

This. Water systems (all of them) require regular maintenance and there are "water conditions" where you need to move to point-of-use for drinking water or you're spending $30k+ on a "whole house" RO system. Culligan and others - they sell generic solutions (high margin) and are not really water people at all, they're sales people.

 

[joseywales]

I've used ETR labs for water testing, they were really good. Turn around is under a week. That said, if you have someone you know that has a pool, they have a chlorine test kit. Anything up to 2ppm is fairly normal at times though I think most utilities shoot for 0.5. Its legal and "safe" to drink up to 4ppm, which is higher than most people run pools!

I might still have my pool kit. He said with city water, it's usually the Chlorine that wears out the resin the most

This. After 10 years, the resin is likely shot. This could be root cause of your issue. As long as your time/valve is working, no reason to replace a "working" (and properly sized) system. If your incoming water is 145 PPM hardness, that water is not very hard and can be handled by a reasonable size softener.

City water here does NOT stain red. IMHO that's iron. What type of mineral deposits / color are you seeing on fixtures?


This. Water systems (all of them) require regular maintenance and there are "water conditions" where you need to move to point-of-use for drinking water or you're spending $30k+ on a "whole house" RO system. Culligan and others - they sell generic solutions (high margin) and are not really water people at all, they're sales people.

Thanks guys. I thought about that, but it doesn't solve the need for a carbon filter. Not sure why/if we decided against that in 2013. Maybe we thought the separate canister for fridge (drinking) would enough, but we need to filter all of the water and this unit can't do that. The split tanks, with carbon and resin are better suited for that. Unless, you know, I'm wrong about that?

 

[pcmeiners]

Your staining on the shower base is from ferrous iron, which turns to ferric iron because oxygen gets mixed with the water at the shower-head/faucet, Either the resin should work on ferrous iron, or Katalox. As to nitrates, resin filters work , activated carbon will notwork.

 

[joseywales]

Your staining on the shower base is from ferrous iron, which turns to ferric iron because oxygen gets mixed with the water at the shower-head/faucet, Either the resin should work on ferrous iron, or Katalox. As to nitrates, resin filters work , activated carbon will notwork.

So the combination of a carbon / resin filter should do it. It's very possible we weren't getting iron when the resin filter was newer, and working. Man 2017...I just can't believe it's been so long and obviously iron could have crept is as the resin wore down.

Needing the carbon, I don't see any reasonable way to avoid a new filter. I guess I could replace the resin, then add a carbon filter, but that "water closet" doesn't have room and it's a finished basement, so space becomes an issue.

 

[pcmeiners]

"So the combination of a carbon / resin filter should do it."

Yes, with the 2 filter, almost all harmful contaminants are filtered out. For a family, 2 tanks (10x54") , one resin or Katalox, one activated charcoal, should be sufficient for a number of years; side by side they do not take up a lot of space. Make sure your filters are back washed regularly, and if a sodium ion resin, it needs to be be regenerated chemically occasionally. Last if you have the "processionals" do it, I trust none of them, had Culligan when I bought my house, the system was not cleaned in years, was never chemically regenerated, resin bed and salt bin were packed with iron and manganese, a definite ripoff.
Since you are in PA , your carbon filter may have a fair amount of Radon and radionuclides after years of use, so both tank's media need to be replaced in the recommend time, as the tanks can actually become harmfully radioactive if the media is used for longer than the recommended use periods.
DIY advice, Home Depot or Lowes sell flexible stainless hose connectors, make plumbing and servicing the tanks a lot easier.

 

[joseywales]

"So the combination of a carbon / resin filter should do it."

Yes, with the 2 filter, almost all harmful contaminants are filtered out. For a family, 2 tanks (10x54") , one resin or Katalox, one activated charcoal, should be sufficient for a number of years; side by side they do not take up a lot of space. Make sure your filters are back washed regularly, and if a sodium ion resin, it needs to be be regenerated chemically occasionally. Last if you have the "processionals" do it, I trust none of them, had Culligan when I bought my house, the system was not cleaned in years, was never chemically regenerated, resin bed and salt bin were packed with iron and manganese, a definite ripoff.
Since you are in PA , your carbon filter may have a fair amount of Radon and radionuclides after years of use, so both tank's media need to be replaced in the recommend time, as the tanks can actually become harmfully radioactive if the media is used for longer than the recommended use periods.
DIY advice, Home Depot or Lowes sell flexible stainless hose connectors, make plumbing and servicing the tanks a lot easier.

I'm freaking out a bit here. We have radon mitigation fan drawing from under the foundation, numbers have always been in check and I replaced that fan last year.

Our softener tanks are in the basement, in a sliding door closet. The basement is finished, so it gets weekend use.

If the filter hasn't been maintained since installation 10 years ago, is there more of a radioactive risk than if we had no filter?
We also have a much smaller tank, the Everpure H300, which treats only our fridge drinking water. I don't know if that's carbon, but that was installed 7 years ago. It's public water and their annual reports test within spec for radiologics. The PA DEP confirmed that as well, but who really knows

Edit to add: I'm going to pick up an EcoQube radon detector, or perhaps something similar at HD. We'll be away for a week and I'll have it by then and test (after being closed for a week). I should monitor it anyway, given the house had a remediation unit since before we moved in here.

 

[pcmeiners]

"If the filter hasn't been maintained since installation 10 years ago, is there more of a radioactive risk than if we had no filter?"

Technically yes..,.
Carbon filter are at most risk. That said you would need to use a lot of water, over an extended period, in an area with a considerable amount of radon and radionuclides for it to build up to a dangerous level. It is advised to change the media as prescribed so the radioactive emissions do not raise to a dangerous level

Far fetched, but technically if the EPA was advised/verified you had a carbon canister with high radioactive emissions they could declare your home an EPA nuclear waste site...an throw you out of your home.
That said everything in this universe gives off radioactive emissions. If you had a charcoal canister, not changed in >15 years, in a high radon or uranium area, next to your bed or behind your living room coach, then I would be worried.

A small refrigerator or sink charcoal filter could not absorb enough nuclear materials to harm anything.

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q12855.html

https://iwaponline.com/ws/article/23/1/288/92574/Can-activated-carbon-filtration-of-groundwater

 

[joseywales]

"If the filter hasn't been maintained since installation 10 years ago, is there more of a radioactive risk than if we had no filter?"

Technically yes..,.
Carbon filter are at most risk. That said you would need to use a lot of water, over an extended period, in an area with a considerable amount of radon and radionuclides for it to build up to a dangerous level. It is advised to change the media as prescribed so the radioactive emissions do not raise to a dangerous level

Far fetched, but technically if the EPA was advised/verified you had a carbon canister with high radioactive emissions they could declare your home an EPA nuclear waste site...an throw you out of your home.
That said everything in this universe gives off radioactive emissions. If you had a charcoal canister, not changed in >15 years, in a high radon or uranium area, next to your bed or behind your living room coach, then I would be worried.

A small refrigerator or sink charcoal filter could not absorb enough nuclear materials to harm anything.

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q12855.html

https://iwaponline.com/ws/article/23/1/288/92574/Can-activated-carbon-filtration-of-groundwater

Appreciate the info. I had read that last week about the EPA. Crazy. HD had a $100 digital tester that got a lot of good reviews, so I placed it in the closet. Curious to see what comes of that before we leave, then after we return in 6 days.

 

[pcmeiners]

Have a Radex radon detector.....
Most home have at least a small amount of radon. The highest radon levels I have gotten were in the winter when the ground is frozen and during heavy rains. That was before I installed a radon venting system. Went from 75 pCI/L to 2 with the vent install.

 

[larry4406]

Have a Radex radon detector.....
Most home have at least a small amount of radon. The highest radon levels I have gotten were in the winter when the ground is frozen and during heavy rains. That was before I installed a radon venting system. Went from 75 pCI/L to 2 with the vent install.

Impressive reduction!

4 pCi/L is the EPA threshold for folks that are curious.