Now can we address this idiocy of calling a flat blade screwdriver a "flathead"? A screw is a flat head, as opposed to a pan head, or an oval head, or a socket head!
Touché… can’t manage to completely suppress the Okie in me
Recommend me a screwdriver set
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Touché… can’t manage to completely suppress the Okie in me
Like most on this forum, I have many, many sets of screwdrivers.
One brand for me is a standout...Vessel
Set | Screwdrivers | PRODUCTS | VESSEL TOOLS U.S.A., INC
full range of information on product groups ranging from tightening tools such as drivers, bit sockets and air tools to anti-static products in the factoryvesseltoolsusa.com
Enough said, VESSEL
Surely you're not using hardware store type straight blade screwdrivers on guns. The only screwdrivers that touch my guns are Brownell's Magna-tips.
This.....100%.
whateg01
Well-known member
What's special about them? They look like every other cheap set of bits, except not cheap
four.cycle
Well-known member
^ The ends are cut correctly so they don't ****** up the screws.
There is a reason that gunsmiths only use a couple brands of screwdrivers, neither of which you will find at HomeDepot or Harbor Freight.
There is a reason that gunsmiths only use a couple brands of screwdrivers, neither of which you will find at HomeDepot or Harbor Freight.
Not to mention bits are hard and don't deflect like cheap bits. When you are trying to remove an odd size action screw on a 1912 Winchester, you need all the help you can get!
Ohio Andy
Well-known member
Grace, chapman, Wadsworth, and maybe PB swiss.
I have the Chapman firearm bits.
I need to check the Wadsworth, they are a recent acquisition.
I have never tried the Brownells, but they make them themselves in the USA and have a good rep.
four.cycle
Well-known member
^ Grace and Brownell are the big players in the gunsmithing world. Chapman and Wadsworth are in the second row. (Probably a result of marketing, not product itself.)
Completely different world than working on Honda and Toyota and Ford automobiles where you need a real #2 phillips that won't slip out of the hole.
There's a reason "Vessel" has been posted in this thread several dozen times.
Completely different world than working on Honda and Toyota and Ford automobiles where you need a real #2 phillips that won't slip out of the hole.
There's a reason "Vessel" has been posted in this thread several dozen times.
d.mcfarland
Well-known member
The statement was:
"My point is that slotted screwdrivers and used for EVERYTHING except for their intended purpose almost always nowadays."
In the automotive world I would venture to guess that it's basically down to prying, scraping, and electrical connectors.
Yeah I think the one I posted was the long reach version which, for me, just works better.
I’ve had a Brownells Master Set for years, and a couple of the little Chapman sets in range bags. My point was only that the slotted screw is not the archeological artifact many make it out to be.
In the modern automotive world, I would imagine you are completely right. There are still a lot of folks keeping older cars on the road, however.
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@d.mcfarland is a smart thoughtful member. I got his point:
Flat bladed screwdrivers feel a bit outdated and obsolete. And there are absolutely tools included in sets that some of us feel are obsolete. I feel that way about breaker bars.
Like @d.mcfarland, I too was wrong about breakers. People still use them. They do things no other tool can do. There are a plethora of straight slot screw heads out there. Electrical is a great example. If you don’t have robertsons, and I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a stubby Robertson, and you don’t have ECX, you really do need flat bladed screwdrivers period. They are what most people use for that work.
The point I hope I made was, when that time comes when you need a flat bladed screwdriver to actually turn a screw, it’s helpful to know there are US spec flats and metric flats. Your choice of sets might want to consider that.
I feel there are fewer and fewer competitive choices in the US spec sets. In my machine shop, I needed a set with a big range of straight slot screwdrivers. There are many such screws, adjusting and otherwise on my Bridgeport alone.
As you all know, I like nice tools and didn’t find I had too many options. Klein would have worked, but I didn’t want those handles. Believe it or not, rebuilding old machine tools is unbelievably messy and I wanted tools easier to clean up. I chose Snap on hard handled instincts. I bought them second hand. I thought they were cheap. When your hands are greasy, it’s tough to beat an Instinct. But no way I’d use them for electrical, hvac etc. They are just too clumsy for that work.
I hope everybody posting and reading sees these conversations as inevitably us passing our diverse real world experiences to, not just the OP, but generations of tool buyers and users.
PS call me stubborn, despite the excellent explanations, I have still not purchased a breaker bar.
esben57
Well-known member
Wera Lasertip. Worth the extra.
You're right, I modified my reply to remove the snark, both intended an unintended
I can see how they would feel dated and obsolete to those who do not use them. For others, the quantity and quality of the flat blade drivers are the most important part of the set.
As for breakers, I have a half dozen. I will give you one, so it can sit at your house just as unused as it does at mine.
richfinn
Well-known member
I still use a flat blade very occasionally on cars/vans, enough not to delete them from my tool kit entirely just yet)
Undertrays with the half twist screws (Audis)
Plastic battery cover/trim fasteners
Ply lined vans (if they run out of pozidriv
)Screws stuck in tyres
Carburetors (Classic cars/bikes)
I guess looks can be deceiving. In addition to my Magni-tips, I also own a Chapman set and a Wheeler set. They are definitely not the same. The Brownell's fit FAR better and they're stronger. My Wheeler and Chapman bits are relegated to range bag use.
nadogail
Well-known member
I really appreciate the Stanley Fat Max screwdrivers i bought almost 30 years ago.
I agree completely. I was a skeptic until I got my first set. Nothing fits as well as the MagnaTips.
Wheelers have been garbage for me. I have a little box full of them I use to grind on and make custom and sacrificial bits as needed.
Chapmans are far better, and make pretty great sets for travel and range bags. I like how compact they are. I have a couple of the little ratchet and bit sets in the yellow pouch and they have been lifesavers on hunting trips.
I must admit, I've never given my Wheelers much of a chance. I bought them when Midway had them on sale but I've not used them much, if at all. My impression was that they were no better than the bits that come with any cheap 1/4" bit driver (i.e. Craftsman). Also, the ridiculously oversized box they came in had to go immediately. I chucked all the bits into a small Trusco tin box and forgot about them. The Wheeler kit includes a bunch of oddball bits that may come in handy someday, but haven't yet.
You made a wise choice.
Oddly enough, I have a couple of clutch head bits that I got from a Wheeler set that I use for Holley carbs.
whateg01
Well-known member
So if the chapman bits for screws better, why are there not more recommendations for them for use other than firearms?
They are a fairly small manufacturer, serving niche markets. They use a proprietary mating system that “kinda” works with standard 1/4 drive tools. If you need them, you know about them.
Ohio Andy
Well-known member
First, they're a little pricey....
They use a proprietary design, which means you can't just take the bits and use them in any driver.
Those two things by themselves limit who probably wants them.
Most people who buy them are buying them either because they package a set that specifically includes things they want or the drive tools or something they specifically want to use because of the characteristics of their drive tools.
They do make fits optimize specifically for firearm usage. As an example, a bit designed for removing handguards on a 1911. They also sell an entire sewing kit for dealing with sewing machines.
You can put standard insert bits into their cases and you can buy a case that will handle 104 bits relatively inexpensively and they work really well. I purchased a few of their cases just for the that.
Gunsmithing set
Gunsmithing Screwdriver Sets
Our gunsmithing screwdriver sets are perfect for general repairs/restoration on firearms and weaponry. The included spinner is designed to apply finger pressure on our smaller bits, while the our famous mini ratchet can provide up to 4x the torque of a large screwdriver. The ratchet is for use...
chapmanmfg.com
This is the case that I bought that comes standard ready for 104 1-in insert bits
#5575c, #5580c Case Only & Racks | Chapman MFG
5575C Cases includes 7 removable insert bit racks (1 orange for Metric Hex bits) and a free spinner. 7300c cases only fit our longer Phillips bits in the first 2 left holes. Available individual racks do not accommodate Phillips & Reed & Prince screwdriver bits. Hand assembled & inspected in CT...
chapmanmfg.com
Very nice for $22. I like they're setup and their little ratcheting device.
whateg01
Well-known member
I didn't know you could buy those boxes. Those look really handy. I've bought boxes for bullets and machined out openings to hold larger bits or special things. It's never ideal though. Thanks for that linkFirst, they're a little pricey....
They use a proprietary design, which means you can't just take the bits and use them in any driver.
Those two things by themselves limit who probably wants them.
Most people who buy them are buying them either because they package a set that specifically includes things they want or the drive tools or something they specifically want to use because of the characteristics of their drive tools.
They do make fits optimize specifically for firearm usage. As an example, a bit designed for removing handguards on a 1911. They also sell an entire sewing kit for dealing with sewing machines.
You can put standard insert bits into their cases and you can buy a case that will handle 104 bits relatively inexpensively and they work really well. I purchased a few of their cases just for the that.
Gunsmithing set
Gunsmithing Screwdriver Sets
Our gunsmithing screwdriver sets are perfect for general repairs/restoration on firearms and weaponry. The included spinner is designed to apply finger pressure on our smaller bits, while the our famous mini ratchet can provide up to 4x the torque of a large screwdriver. The ratchet is for use...
This is the case that I bought that comes standard ready for 104 1-in insert bits
#5575c, #5580c Case Only & Racks | Chapman MFG
5575C Cases includes 7 removable insert bit racks (1 orange for Metric Hex bits) and a free spinner. 7300c cases only fit our longer Phillips bits in the first 2 left holes. Available individual racks do not accommodate Phillips & Reed & Prince screwdriver bits. Hand assembled & inspected in CT...
Very nice for $22. I like they're setup and their little ratcheting device.
IMO, the Chapman bits are OK, but certainly not ideal. A few of the bits that came with my Chapman set have been useful in the field, but there isn't enough variety or range of bits to make it a truly useful set on the bench.
Also, the drivers that come with the Chapman set aren't nearly as useful as a full size/solid handle. BTW, I exclusively use Brownell's short "Law Enforcement" handle when using my Magna-tip bits. I don't think I've ever purposely chose to use the full-size handle that usually comes packaged with the Magna-tip sets.
ETA:
In this photo, you'll see a Magna-tip set (along with the thin-bits add-on set), a Chapman set and a bunch of Wheeler bits in a Trusco box. Also shown is the standard Magna-Tip handle alongside the short "LE" handle. Also. shown is a Malco bit driver which I use with drill/driver bits. None of the gunsmith type bits lock in the Malco (though they are fairly secure).
Attachments
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Ohio Andy
Well-known member
Chapman bits are meant for use by hand, they do not expect you to use power equipment to put them in. And especially in the smaller bits, they provide guidelines to things like how much torque you can put on them because they expect you to be doing things by hand. And they said they wanted the bit to fail before the fastener so that you don't damage the fastener. So that's Chapman
I took a look at the Brownell set and a claim was made that they're really strong. Which means I guess that you damage your fastener before you damage the bit. That's a preference, but I think they're real claim to fame is that it just has A very large selection and variety of slotted bits so that you can find the one that has the best dimensions. So that if the slot is a little wider, you can get a screw that will precisely fit that slot size rather than getting one that just met the factory spec that might fit a little looser. And especially when you're dealing with a holder firearm and you want it to stay in mint looking condition from the screws perspective, that can be a big deal.
Edit:
I stand corrected, from all very specifically states that their bits are designed to break before the screw or fastener does. So they use the same design philosophy is Chapman. So I'm not sure that I would claim these to be the strongest bits, but they are specifically designed for a task where you really don't want to damage the fastener.
I took a look at the Brownell set and a claim was made that they're really strong. Which means I guess that you damage your fastener before you damage the bit. That's a preference, but I think they're real claim to fame is that it just has A very large selection and variety of slotted bits so that you can find the one that has the best dimensions. So that if the slot is a little wider, you can get a screw that will precisely fit that slot size rather than getting one that just met the factory spec that might fit a little looser. And especially when you're dealing with a holder firearm and you want it to stay in mint looking condition from the screws perspective, that can be a big deal.
Edit:
I stand corrected, from all very specifically states that their bits are designed to break before the screw or fastener does. So they use the same design philosophy is Chapman. So I'm not sure that I would claim these to be the strongest bits, but they are specifically designed for a task where you really don't want to damage the fastener.
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Maybe Chapman makes other sets, but my Chapman set came with a handle that allows the bit to be inserted flush with the handle. If you want any kind of reach you have to use the included extension. The handle has a set screw that allows you to tighten the extension in the handle, but it still seems a bit fiddly. I never really cared for this arrangement. I much prefer the solid feel of Brownell's handle (specifically the short LE handle).
BTW, a have a few solid/fixed blade Brownell's screwdrivers. Now, THOSE are nice! I can't justify the cost for a full set so I got a few that I was using frequently.
BTW, a have a few solid/fixed blade Brownell's screwdrivers. Now, THOSE are nice! I can't justify the cost for a full set so I got a few that I was using frequently.
I think that's right. Brownell's strength comes from precise fit. I've got the thin-bit add on set and those blades are REALLY thin. They're just the thing for working on European double shotguns. They fit the slot, which allows you to budge the screw without boogering up the bit.
They are my go to drivers every time.
The problem, is - their price, They'd have much better credibility, if they charged 10x as much.
They are made in China, though, OP not interested.
Ohio Andy
Well-known member
The thin bits are not included in their fifty subverting piece set of seems.
tiredoldironworker
Well-known member
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- Jun 14, 2024
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I like my chapman sets and really like the empty cases that fit regular old 1/4" bits just fine. I have a set in all vehicles and range bags and junkyard veto pac.
I drove German cars for decades. I can't remember that last time I needed a flathead screwdriver to turn a screw in a German car. The '63 beetle? Maybe 1st generation watercooled VWs? But, we all have stashes of old screwdrivers. If there is a problem, go to your grinder or pick up a file and make an old one fit tight if needed. Sizing it to the screw will be better anyways. The bigger issue for Euro stuff is unexpected appearances of posidrive.
I like Kleins and Stanley 100 plus for most things. I like old perfect handle screwdrivers filed to fit for a lot of woodworking. Old planes use big ole screws. I love vessel philips for bicycles and cars. I can't even image how many old bicycle screws were destroyed before we learned about JIS screws. (Rivendell even did an ode to a worn craftsman #1 philips years ago. I couldn't have been the only one to email WTF? They sell vessel now.) I have a bunch of old Millers Falls flat head screwdrivers I use because I like the red lacquered handles, sorta collect MF stuff, and the metal seems good. There is a set of Grave reserved for special occasions. There are more floating about, but those are my favorites.
I remember buying craftsman screwdrivers back in the 80s, excitedly thinking I was upgrading from Dad's collection of discount screwdrivers from the cans next to the register. So disappointing. Young me was shocked to discover that the cheapest Stanley handyman junk was far superior.
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Ohio Andy
Well-known member
I had Stanley screwdrivers I thought were ok and one set that was so bad I ended up pitching them.
The Phillips head looked something like these
I posted here when I finally threw them in the trash.
JerseyBoatBuilder
Well-known member
They are made by Zephyr Tool, most bits other than maybe some flat head bits I can not tell the difference between what they make for Brownells and Snap On. Other than a Snap On part# both are marked with a (Z) from Zephyr.
Ohio Andy
Well-known member
A few specific things...
Ignoring PB swiss and Grace, most slotted screwdriver tips are shaped like a triangle so the contact point is along a thin line near the top of the screw head. So more likely to damage the screw.
Many slotted bits are how ground so that should help.
One trick with the brownell set is that it contains speed but of the same width but multiple thickness so you can take a bit that fits very well. This also allows you to compensate for manufacturer variations, especially between suppliers. I think that Chapman has some of this as well.
Project farm does a test to find the bits that are the hardest to break. Chapman and Brownell specifically state that they want the bit to fail before the fastener. There is an assumption that parts are not easily replaceable
Ohio Andy
Well-known member
Google AI thinks Brownells manufacturers they're own bits, which seems unlikely since brownells dues not mention it that I can find. A Z would lend credibility to zephyr as the manufacturer. Do you have any other reason to believe so?
I really like zephyr bits, I have an open order from them that I expect end of January 2026; some bits are harder than others to get.
M.Jay
Well-known member
The amount of mangled JIS screws i had to deal with over the years was tiresome. Fortunately, most screws on new bikes are now Hex or Torx.
JerseyBoatBuilder
Well-known member
Without even having to take a picture of any of my bits. Right here on their site. First picture click zoom in and you will see (Z) for Zephyr Tool Group.
Brownells Magna- tip bit
All of their Metal cases and hard handle bit drivers are Zephyr.
Brownells screw drivers
They also relabel the Williams ratcheting screw drivers.
Brownells relabeled Williams.
Brownells Magna- tip bit
All of their Metal cases and hard handle bit drivers are Zephyr.
Brownells screw drivers
They also relabel the Williams ratcheting screw drivers.
Brownells relabeled Williams.