I've got a good bit of soldering to do on a car wire harness project and lack a soldering iron. Looking at Radio Shack and home depot's website, I'd like to ask you guy's opinion on a good sized one that works well. I'm not set on those two stores just looking for something I can pick up locally and get started.
Recommendations on a soldering iron/station
- Thread starter 4EyedTurd
- Start date
For a car wiring harness, most of these soldering stations might be a little underpowered for larger gauge wire and connectors. I'd skip the stations and go Portosol and get some of the larger tips. If you really want a station look at the Weller WD 1 that's 85 watts. (it isn't cheap and you won't find it at low end consumer stores like Home Crapo or Radio Shack)
How come you want to solder a wiring harness as opposed to using crimps? Crimps would be better for this application.
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PBCampbell
Well-known member
What's the reason for needing a station to solder wires? I'd just pick up a pencil iron of at least 35 watts if I was in a hurry to get started or the aforementioned gas powered iron (portosol).
justme-
Well-known member
No guys higher power is not better in soldering. Skip the portasol and gun styles. Too much wattage results in melted insulation.
40 watts is the biggest you will need in anything smaller than 6 gage. Weller is great stuff, not many local sources for hakko in the us.
Crimps are not ideal for harnesses. I know its a hot debate but as the son of an electrical engineer, a ham operator, and very experienced with electronics and wiring I can assure you soldering is better 90% of the time, especially in vibration environments.
40 watts is the biggest you will need in anything smaller than 6 gage. Weller is great stuff, not many local sources for hakko in the us.
Crimps are not ideal for harnesses. I know its a hot debate but as the son of an electrical engineer, a ham operator, and very experienced with electronics and wiring I can assure you soldering is better 90% of the time, especially in vibration environments.
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pedrodagr8
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- Aug 25, 2013
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If you have a frys nearby, they sell the Hakko FX888D, a damn nice station. Just make sure to pick up a large chisel to for its increased thermal mass. Makes soldering wires much easier.
koditten
Well-known member
I hate to be "that guy", but the Harbor Frieght mini butane torch works awesome. $8 and seved me for 10 years untile recently. I ran over it.
I needed a replacement ASAP, Lowes was the closest place to get a micro tourch. I had to spend $30 for the Bernsomatic brand. Its nicer than the HF version, but it also has this stupid safety switch thingy. The HF torch does not have the safety switch.
I needed a replacement ASAP, Lowes was the closest place to get a micro tourch. I had to spend $30 for the Bernsomatic brand. Its nicer than the HF version, but it also has this stupid safety switch thingy. The HF torch does not have the safety switch.
Soldering better in vibration environments???? That's a new one!!
torqueman2002
Well-known member
x2 !
A good well formed crimp is the preferred connection.
The trouble is the 'good well formed' crimp requires a quality, proper crimper.
MFolks
Well-known member
In Aerospace work, the only soldered connections are in the solder cups of the various connectors, which have strain reliefs, all others are crimped using specified tools:
http://www.dmctools.com/Products/crimp_tools.html
Used for missile, and aircraft electrical wiring production.
http://www.dmctools.com/Products/crimp_tools.html
Used for missile, and aircraft electrical wiring production.
quattroJoe
Well-known member
I have used a few Tenma stations and they are not bad for the money, but get your hands on a good Hakko and you'll never look back. I've got an FX-951 that is the bee's knees, use it mainly for PCB work with a fine chisel tip. I use it occasionally for wiring on the bench, but my go-to that I drag around the shop is an FX-888D, more than adequate for harness work. Only problem is I hate being tethered to the station when I'm trying to work under a dash, the cord is always just barely too short. I've yet to find a soldering gun that I like as much as the Hakko stations though, but a gun with decent tips would be a lot more convenient. If Hakko brought out a gun that worked well on up to 12awg I'd be on it like white on rice. Both of the stations I mentioned work great on 12awg though, anything larger I always crimp (that thread on soldering battery terminals was cringe-worthy.)
I get the whole 'solder vs crimp' debate, and I think both have their place. I'd never use **** connectors on data wires, but would also not solder a joint too close to a strain point. Also I'll never use lead-free until it is absolutely impossible to get a hold of leaded solder or until a better substitute for lead comes along. I'm supplied with lead-free at work, but I'll go spend my time and money to get solder that's not going to end up with cracked joints a couple years later.
I get the whole 'solder vs crimp' debate, and I think both have their place. I'd never use **** connectors on data wires, but would also not solder a joint too close to a strain point. Also I'll never use lead-free until it is absolutely impossible to get a hold of leaded solder or until a better substitute for lead comes along. I'm supplied with lead-free at work, but I'll go spend my time and money to get solder that's not going to end up with cracked joints a couple years later.
justme-
Well-known member
Soldering, like anything else, has to be done properly. wire to wire (**** splice) solder is a better connection 99% of the time. Many pins are terminated onto wires with crimps which are then protected inside housings behind strain reliefs, just as many other terminals are soldered and protected in housings behind reliefs.
I've heard of DMc - most of my/our crimp tools are by the connector manufacturer, like AMP. I agree very few average users have the correct quality crimper for the connector they are using and it doesn't help that most mechanics tool companies sell crimpers that do little more than a pair of pliers would.
Back to topic - 40 watts is more than enough for 90% of what you'll find in anything automotive and according to the majority here (in another thread) since battery cables should be crimped not soldered that makes 99% of automotive wires.
I've heard of DMc - most of my/our crimp tools are by the connector manufacturer, like AMP. I agree very few average users have the correct quality crimper for the connector they are using and it doesn't help that most mechanics tool companies sell crimpers that do little more than a pair of pliers would.
Back to topic - 40 watts is more than enough for 90% of what you'll find in anything automotive and according to the majority here (in another thread) since battery cables should be crimped not soldered that makes 99% of automotive wires.
tool_scrounge
Well-known member
metcal rules - super fast heatup time. Hakko is also pretty good. For homeowner use, probably weller
The proper tip size for the job is extremely important to make a good joint. FWIW, this is what I own. JBC kicks it to the curb though, and will be the Weller's replacement when the time comes (Weller's value is terrible, even in this segment of the market).
What is this actually based on?
Crimping is actually better electrically (solder joint is more resistive than a gas tight/cold weld, which is what actually occurs with a proper crimp <terminal & wire contained in it become one single piece of copper>). It's also better suited to vibration environments with the correct terminals (strain relief; possible with solder joints as well, but it's still not as reliable in the testing I've been responsible for), and is easier to seal out moisture reliably (other chemicals too, such as fuel and oil).
Don't forget the necessary skill as well (from proper wire stripping/prep to terminal orientation and insertion depth).
My experience/background as well.
Compared to what?
A properly crimped **** splice will make a better electrical connection than soldered one. Vibration is solved via adhesive lined heat shrink tubing (can be done separately <crimp an un-insulated connector + apply adhesive shrink> or with a heat shrink crimp terminal that already has it on the crimp terminal; crimp and heat).
If I had to guess, what most people that support soldering over crimping have in common, is that they've not seen properly executed crimps (lack of tooling, training, or both).
Another factor that's likely contributing, is crimping also takes more tooling than soldering when running into repairs of all sorts (no one size fits all die nest/crimp tool), so lots of separate crimp tools/dies in an interchangeable system will outnumber what a few soldering iron tip sizes can do in terms of different jobs that can be tackled, as well as reducing tooling costs for field repair.
Save some cash and buy a Weller from Amazon. I've soldered roughly 1 million joints in my life (yes, I used to stuff and solder microprocessor boards years ago in my basement for extra cash), and Weller makes good irons at a reasonable price. And their tips are good quality & long lasting.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000AS28UC/?tag=atomicindus08-20
n8n
Well-known member
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BRC2XU/?tag=atomicindus08-20
WESD51 or Hakko if you want something fancier
Get some extra tips and also one of these
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FZPGDLA/?tag=atomicindus08-20
WESD51 or Hakko if you want something fancier
Get some extra tips and also one of these
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FZPGDLA/?tag=atomicindus08-20
n8n
Well-known member
It is damn near impossible to find a pro-quality hand crimp tool for the common sizes/types of connectors used in automotive wiring, whereas you can get set up with a proper soldering station for under $100 all in if you shop around. This is why I tend to solder/heat shrink... (and yes I do use the adhesive stuff.)
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
n8n
Well-known member
I have two WTCPTs problem with those is the temperature regulation is built into the tip so you need a good assortment of tips to make it work over a wide range of applications.
Cheaper in the long run is to get the WES51, works just the same but you only need an assortment of tips for different sizes, temp regulation is built into the base (adjusted by the dial.)
I do however have no compunctions about using my WTCP if it's handy and the WES51 is not. It's still a great station (got it for free when a previous employer got completely out of in house fab and cleaned out all the tools.)
Cheaper in the long run is to get the WES51, works just the same but you only need an assortment of tips for different sizes, temp regulation is built into the base (adjusted by the dial.)
I do however have no compunctions about using my WTCP if it's handy and the WES51 is not. It's still a great station (got it for free when a previous employer got completely out of in house fab and cleaned out all the tools.)
quattroJoe
Well-known member
I think the main problem with crimping is it's less exact and repeatable than soldering. I see so many more bad crimp jobs than soldered connections. There are the dummies that "crimp" **** connectors with vise grips and the insulated connectors that have been crimped with a non-ins die, but there is also a lot of variation in quality of crimpers and crimp connections. How many guys use those all in one crimper/stripper/cutting tools? I've yet to see one that does any of the above as well as a dedicated tool, but a lot of people use them. I've got manual crimpers from Channellock, Klein, and Snap On, as well as an Astro ratcheting crimper with interchangeable dies. All are good tools, but each one excels at different things and all are used regularly. The quality of the connector means a lot too, decent ones are very repeatable and crimp nicely every time, while others are straight **** and won't survive a slight tug even with a perfect crimp.
For someone that is moderately experienced or better at soldering, it's very easy to identify a bad joint before insulating it. I can't remember the last time I had to solder a joint twice, but I occasionally have to cut out a bad crimp and redo it immediately.
I think what's most telling (and I think a lot of you will be able to relate) is when I have a car come in with a ton of **** splices, I know it's going to be a headache. When the last person to work on the vehicle took the time to solder and shrink their splices the quality of work is typically much better overall.
Both methods have their uses, and in many situations either would suffice, but I see far more crappy crimp jobs and much more room for error in crimping.
For someone that is moderately experienced or better at soldering, it's very easy to identify a bad joint before insulating it. I can't remember the last time I had to solder a joint twice, but I occasionally have to cut out a bad crimp and redo it immediately.
I think what's most telling (and I think a lot of you will be able to relate) is when I have a car come in with a ton of **** splices, I know it's going to be a headache. When the last person to work on the vehicle took the time to solder and shrink their splices the quality of work is typically much better overall.
Both methods have their uses, and in many situations either would suffice, but I see far more crappy crimp jobs and much more room for error in crimping.
James_B
Well-known member
I worked for 30 years in a government aerospace ground support organization, and the Weller WTCPT irons were our standard. Mine did everything from printed circuit board assembly, to soldering 23g wire onto 20x6 tag blocks, to soldering up heavy wire splices. In that period I'd had one complete iron replacement when the case was damaged beyond repair after one too many falls off the top of a stepladder. The broken iron was fished out of the dumpster at the end of the day, and I made a new case for it. It was taken home and used for another 1/4 of a century at home.
The old early 70s vintage WTCPT with the new case and its 80s vintage WTCPT replacement have been exceptionally reliable, with just a single heating element, and 2 "curie point" switches assemblies replaced in the time I had been using them.
The plugs and sockets that connect the iron to the transformer on the models made from the late 70s onwards, are a bit fragile in rough working environments, and many people replace them with 4 pin microphone plugs and sockets. The US military uses a different 4 pin polarized plug in their field Weller models.
My repaired WTCPT and its replacement (that I also took home when I retired in 2000), were both given away before I moved to Canada in 2008.
For a few years after I moved here, I tried using a cheap "no name" iron, but in the end, I abandoned it and assembled a WTCPT iron from parts I bought on eBay ... a used PU120T transformer from one seller, brand new boxed TC201T iron from another. I still had lots of Weller tips, so that gave me a good range of temperature and tip shape options at no extra cost.
The old early 70s vintage WTCPT with the new case and its 80s vintage WTCPT replacement have been exceptionally reliable, with just a single heating element, and 2 "curie point" switches assemblies replaced in the time I had been using them.
The plugs and sockets that connect the iron to the transformer on the models made from the late 70s onwards, are a bit fragile in rough working environments, and many people replace them with 4 pin microphone plugs and sockets. The US military uses a different 4 pin polarized plug in their field Weller models.
My repaired WTCPT and its replacement (that I also took home when I retired in 2000), were both given away before I moved to Canada in 2008.
For a few years after I moved here, I tried using a cheap "no name" iron, but in the end, I abandoned it and assembled a WTCPT iron from parts I bought on eBay ... a used PU120T transformer from one seller, brand new boxed TC201T iron from another. I still had lots of Weller tips, so that gave me a good range of temperature and tip shape options at no extra cost.
Thanks for the advice guys, I know the connector/solder debate could go on for a while. I'm not opposed to **** splices and have used them many times, even used the **** splices with heat shrink on them. I ended up ordering the Makko 888 setup and should be here by Labor Day weekend and give me something to do.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Here we go again!
If you want to keep the expense down - I have several Weller soldering stations, some old, and they work fine. Some others heat up faster. I have others with more features. You need nothing fancy for a wiring harness.
Either crimping properly or soldering properly (with heat shrink) works fine. If one was much better, there would not be all these arguments. I have never had either one come apart. I have had them corrode and fall apart in salt water environments, where special precautions are needed.
If you want to keep the expense down - I have several Weller soldering stations, some old, and they work fine. Some others heat up faster. I have others with more features. You need nothing fancy for a wiring harness.
Either crimping properly or soldering properly (with heat shrink) works fine. If one was much better, there would not be all these arguments. I have never had either one come apart. I have had them corrode and fall apart in salt water environments, where special precautions are needed.
I'm the world's worst electrician. I know VERY little about the subject. I bought a Portasol for some work in my car interior. They heat up fast, but its a little like a butane torch with a tip on it. It has an exhaust port that is either melting some expensive plastic part or burning the hair off the back of my hand. Clearly this is user error. So....just a note from me that I would prefer a simple corded Radio Shack model to my expensive Portasol. Failing that, I need to be taught how to use the thing.
One more point- for auto wiring, I don't think a good soldering iron is necessary. Soldering stations are important for doing IC work, soldering boards. I did that once with a USAF aircraft electrician looking over my shoulder. So don't get caught up buying the "best".
One more point- for auto wiring, I don't think a good soldering iron is necessary. Soldering stations are important for doing IC work, soldering boards. I did that once with a USAF aircraft electrician looking over my shoulder. So don't get caught up buying the "best".
Sadly, not so much anymore. Prices have soared and quality has declined (stations & tips alike).
This is part of what I was getting to.
There are interchangeable die systems that will fit requirements, and still keep tooling costs reasonable, but it's going to cost more than an entry level soldering station ($100 range), unless you use one single die type all of the time.
Pressmaster Multi-Crimp Tool for example (rebranded with a Waytek label). The automotive specific dies aren't cheap (Metripack and Weatherpack), but far cheaper than a lot of dedicated crimpers that you'd actually want to use. Another source, and they carry more dies (Waytek is wire harness centric).
But not if it's done with the correct tooling (ratcheting crimp tool, so pressure is always correct, unlike plier types that depend on the operator). Quite the opposite in fact. The use of locators even reduce the amount of training required to wire prep (though terminal location training isn't all that hard to learn, and can be done quickly).
But I certainly get your point with crimps made by monkeys that don't have the correct tooling or training.
Heck, the only reason I even feel it's important to point this out, is there's so many that are of the "use the right tool for the job" type of members, aka auto repair professionals, that crimping seems to be an exception to this ideology.
I can only surmise they don't understand crimping correctly, when I see the various plier types of crimp tools proudly displayed in the "Show your new tool arrivals" thread. And as you describe, even these are worlds above what some people actually use, such as vise grips.
Definitely.
Terminal type as well as quality make a huge difference in the end result.Cheap Asian made terminals have complicated matters for those looking to cut costs, as they cut corners to meet their price points (i.e. metal is too thin).
Solution isn't that hard though; buy quality terminals from a distributor of a well known manufacturer (not some unknown source in China claiming to sell say Panduit, TE Connectivity, 3M, ... that's made in the US). Not worth the aggravation that inevitably comes when you discover what you bought is cheap **** that will not cold weld to the wire for example (where too thin of metal comes into play, and comes off the wire during a pull test).
Please understand, I've done years of QC on this in the aerospace industry.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
PBCampbell
Well-known member
I'm still scratching my head as to why so many seem to think a variable temperature soldering station is required for soldering wires together. It seems the direction of discussion has changed to high dollar crimpers are required for basic **** connections as well? I can understand special crimpers for the special types of multiwire plugs and special type wires(like coaxial for instance), but not for not for single wire ****, spade type connections. I think this discussion has gone past the point of rationality.
I've soldered plenty of wire and solid state components with a simple pencil iron and I've crimped plenty of wire connectors with inexpensive stamped steel multipurpose crimpers (Klein, Craftsman, Noname). I've a truck with a fuel pump relay that's simply twisted and wire nutted (not even taped) that's still operating after 5 or 6 years (I do need to fix that proper) and it's driven weekly during that entire time. Fortunately it's hanging free over the inner fender so if the connection would fail it's easy to get to to fix.
I guess what I'm getting at is there seems to be a preponderance of massive overkill when it comes to fixing wires on an automobile. It just isn't that critical. You're not going to get stuck in the middle of the ocean or fall from the sky if a connection fails. Worst case is you pull over to the side of the rode and need a tow. Take your time and check your work. There's more potential for operator error than there is for equipment failure.
If you want to blow your money on an uber soldering instrument, look at the offerings from American Beauty or Hexicon. Look at Irons with 1/4" tips and 35 to 50 watts.
I've soldered plenty of wire and solid state components with a simple pencil iron and I've crimped plenty of wire connectors with inexpensive stamped steel multipurpose crimpers (Klein, Craftsman, Noname). I've a truck with a fuel pump relay that's simply twisted and wire nutted (not even taped) that's still operating after 5 or 6 years (I do need to fix that proper) and it's driven weekly during that entire time. Fortunately it's hanging free over the inner fender so if the connection would fail it's easy to get to to fix.
I guess what I'm getting at is there seems to be a preponderance of massive overkill when it comes to fixing wires on an automobile. It just isn't that critical. You're not going to get stuck in the middle of the ocean or fall from the sky if a connection fails. Worst case is you pull over to the side of the rode and need a tow. Take your time and check your work. There's more potential for operator error than there is for equipment failure.
If you want to blow your money on an uber soldering instrument, look at the offerings from American Beauty or Hexicon. Look at Irons with 1/4" tips and 35 to 50 watts.
I use a Weller WES51 every day and have zero complaints with their tips or stations. And I stored away the Hakko and Tenma stations, as the Weller works better for me.
Glad it's served you well thus far.
Unfortunately, not everyone has had such a wonderful experience. Check the reviews on Amazon for the WES51 and WESD51 for example (COO of Mexico on these).
In my case, the LT tips have been a **** shoot (thin & flaking plating right out of the bag on ~20% of them; COO is Bosnia). Even the WX series stations were so bad on initial release they had to do a recall (sorted now, but it was a mess). German and Japanese made tips don't seem to have these issues, while Bosnia and Mexico do (variable QC).
At least there are 3rd party sources from Plato (Techspray) or Zephyr (Zephyrtronics) for example for some series of tips.We're not talking Chinese levels of DOA's & early failures, but better is not only possible, Weller used to deliver that in the past. It's what built their reputation. And other companies still do, even for the entry level products, such as Hakko (entry level station COO is Malaysia, everything else is still Japan).
Beemer533
Well-known member
Definitely. We use nothing but Metcals at work. Swapping tips is very easy, and the best is the auto temperature control; the temp is set based on the tip you have installed... Works very well.
justme-
Well-known member
Definitely part of the crimp/solder debate. Most auto mechanics and home mechanics have never seen the correct crimp tool for any connector, never mind a DIYer. It doesn't help that the tool sellers for such markets want to carry something, but not the correct thing for the task, probably because the specific terminals to specific tool is so vast and the proper tools are specific and expensive. Auto mechanics would not balk at several hundred for a wrench set but would for a single crimp tool. Wrenches seem justified when they are used regularly but a crimp tool is not.But I certainly get your point with crimps made by monkeys that don't have the correct tooling or training.
Heck, the only reason I even feel it's important to point this out, is there's so many that are of the "use the right tool for the job" type of members, aka auto repair professionals, that crimping seems to be an exception to this ideology.
I can only surmise they don't understand crimping correctly, when I see the various plier types of crimp tools proudly displayed in the "Show your new tool arrivals" thread. And as you describe, even these are worlds above what some people actually use, such as vise grips.
Definitely.
Please understand, I've done years of QC on this in the aerospace industry.
I've seen few crimps that were cold fused when destructively inspected including those done with the proper tool and the proper technique however I'll yield to your experience. I have done probably in the middle tens-of-thousand crimp connections in my lifetime which is a drop in the bucket compared to aerospace QC over a decade I'm sure.
I'd be very interested in reading published testing results, especially regarding soldering vs crimping. I've never heard resistance in solder being higher and have always been taught (from multiple engineers in the medical/laser/high voltage fields) crimps are inferior. Granted one engineering application is not like the other.
A simple pencil iron is more than sufficient in most cases, I agree. Used both and often use the pencil since it's less bulky unless I'm at a bench.
Examples of mediocre tool providing a mediocre crimp. Crimp connectors are designed for specific wire gages and to be crimped a certain way (crimp tool "pattern" if you will) to a certain compression. Using generic crimp tools (I'm guilty of it too) can pierce the insulation of the crimp connector and will not assure proper pattern or compression meaning wire can/will loosen and moisture can/will get in there and cause corrosion. Yeah, you may not tear the insulation and you may be using high quality 3M connectors, and all may be fine for years. The thing is it it not an ideal connection and it far more likely to fail.
True you're not falling from the sky in your F250 when a crimped connection fails and the wire dislodges from the connection, but that 12v+ wire that just came out could short on something and pop a fuse killing the engine and with it goes power steering assist and brake assist.
Worst case is that wire shorts and starts a fire.
Not being in the middle of the ocean is little consolation when you're trying to see through the smoke filling the inside of your vehicle and trying to find the side of the road to pull over and get out. I've been there. Mine was caused by the previous owner crimping the 7pin trailer plug into the truck, not sealing the connections, and regularly putting a boat into the ocean dunking the rear end of the truck in. The truck was no winner by any means, but luckily I was on a back road not far from home and there was no other traffic. Once things sorted out the headlight switch and harness was toast and I drove home with my head out the window without any lights. Had that happened on a crowded express way in traffic the outcome would likely have been very different and just as serious as a marine or aerospace environment.
n8n
Well-known member
It's not, but once you use it it kicks the **** out of a 20w plug in pencil. So much nicer and easier to use that it is well worth the extra $$. Do I carry a pencil in my mobile toolbag? sure. Do I use it? Hardly ever.
Most commonly available crimp tools, when used with commonly available connectors, do not produce a good connection. I've yet to invest in a proper crimp tool with replaceable dies, as trying to find one that does *everything* that I want for a quasi-reasonable price is quite difficult, so for now I always use uninsulated connectors and then follow up with adhesive heat shrink; my theory is that that provides a better connection that using the wrong crimp tool on an insulated connector (that is not weathertight anyway...)