RECORD NO.3 Vise question

[ALLFAST]

For the resident Record authorities. I picked up this beauty last month. It supposedly was purchased from the widow of the original buyer. I think it's a 1950 to 1952. I'm most certain it's original paint, and it's VERY tough paint at that.
My question is about this 1/8" thick washer that is between the snout and the dynamic face. I don't believe it's original. The upper half is squared off so it rests flush on the upper edge. Does it belong on the other side, forward of he spring assembly, and BEHIND the dynamic jaw ? I don't know if it was at some point disassembled and put back together incorrectly. The cotter pin doesn't look original. Anyway, their is no excessive play side to side, or front to back while running the jaw back and forth. When I close the vise it comes to what I call a "natural,unforced" stop with 3/32 " gap between the jaw faces. If I go past this, with a tad more force, a 1/8" gap remains. If I push against the dynamic jaw there is about 1/4" of movement that I measure on the jaws, which the spring allows. When I hold this position with the slide forced back (with hand pressure) I measure 1/2" of compressed distance of the spring/washer /cotter key from underneath.
Is this all normal ? If not, can I try moving the washer to behind the jaw ? The vise is absolutely perfect otheriwse. It holds tight...there is no misalignment, jaws are dead square all around, etc. It just doesn't seem right with the washer in the front.

 

[ALLFAST]

There she is in all her glory.

 

[visedog]

No, the washer is not normal. It seems to be wrongly installed. Maybe you can try removing it and see what happens.

 

[2oolhound]

There should only be one washer, the one in front of the cotter pin. The cotter pin should be a solid steel pin that is tapped in place. The pin is just long enough to protrude past the spring on both sides so it doesn't hit the inside of the slide walls when the screw turns. A tight fitting nail would be better than the cotter pin.

If you flip the vice upside down you will see the other larger pin that holds the main nut in place inside the vice. It should be straight and you should be able to see it looking in under the bottom of the slide from the back. You will need to drive that pin out to fix your problem.

Here's a diagram:

 

[Fretters]

Definitely shouldn't be a washer there as standard. Just bin that front washer. It's serving no purpose bar preventing some slight wear from the collar on the front jaw. It's probably causing problems by overly compressing the spring, however. Using a split pin is fine, btw. I can't recall whether they used those or not at factory, at some point.

 

[ALLFAST]

I will look into this and I appreciate your help thus far......I figured something was a miss. I'll look for one of those spring clips and report back on my progress.

Regards, Shawn

 

[Fretters]

You don't need, or want, a spring clip. That's a different vice. A piece of rod or a split pin through that hole is how it was always done. Same length as the O/D of that internal washer, if you use a length of rod.

 

[ALLFAST]

Fretters,

Thank you for dialing me in on this as I was about to head out and get spring clips ! I don't have the vise handy so I'll need to wait and measure the leadscrew before proceeding. I shall update you in a ew days.

Regards,

Shawn

 

[oldbrownhat]

Allfast, that's a real beauty- practically new but with a handsome patina of age. I'd hate to think what one of those would cost today if they were still made in England. I've just acquired a Record No.3 as well, and came across this forum when wondering about the washer and spring arrangement as well.

Mine is pretty battered up, with no swivel base, and came bolted down to a welding table which had been left outside for a couple of years (!) It'll go back on the welding table when I've got it cleaned up. It had been repainted yellow for some reason, most of which had come off but much of the original paint is still underneath. That paint IS tough, and probably lead-based, too, given its age.

2oolhound- thanks for the diagramme.

 

[ALLFAST]

OBH....good job on your score ! Many may feel I overpaid, but I've never seen such an old Record in a 200 mike radius of my hunting ground parameters.....not in 3 years. I've seen a few newer and lesser quality Records of I believe, Asian manufacture. I did the classic CL approach for me: I saw an ad with a bazillion tools listed, and this vise sitting in the background but not advertised. I texted and politely inquired if it was for sale....he says not really....I ask would $100 buy it ? Texts, back....I think $100 will buy it ! Anyway, I just discovered JZIGGY has a post here about his Paramo upgrade to a bushing pin affair ? I'll find the link and let you know. Is your spring modified ? It's a tough old vise...the jaws and towers are hard as nails. Very well made, and yes, prolly lead paint. I'm afraid to mess with the patina.....hipsters pay top dollar for such "Steampunk" items ! Or spend hours trying to reproduce such an element. Post some pictures of your yellow monger !
Shawn

 

[ALLFAST]

Oh yeah, good job on joining the forum early....I admired from the sidelines unwittingly for years....it's an outstanding bunch over here. Welcome aboard !

 

[ALLFAST]

Yes,
That spring clip is what I just reinstalled on this Craftsman 6" import that I just refurbished at work....it's a HIDEOUS affair. I will remove the big washer and see what's up. Maybe the spring became soft from overworking it ? If this is the case, any suggestions on a god replacement? Is any old Mcmaster Carr item going to suffice ? I saw JZIGGYs Paramo upgrade and will look into this....JZIGGY....if you read this, thanks for that sage upgrade idea ! I'll definitely source some Roll pi s and do this right.

 

[ALLFAST]

The work vise makeover. The thing sat for 6 months "broken" because it would "only tighten and not screw out"....I finally got my hands on it and determined the shoulder bolt holding the nut into the dovetail slot had vibrated loose ! I had to repaint it in new cat yellow. It's a decent little vise that holds pipe and stock VERY well, it's just not so smooth!

 

[eddieK]

For the resident Record authorities. I picked up this beauty last month. It supposedly was purchased from the widow of the original buyer. I think it's a 1950 to 1952. I'm most certain it's original paint, and it's VERY tough paint at that.
My question is about this 1/8" thick washer that is between the snout and the dynamic face. I don't believe it's original. The upper half is squared off so it rests flush on the upper edge. Does it belong on the other side, forward of he spring assembly, and BEHIND the dynamic jaw ? I don't know if it was at some point disassembled and put back together incorrectly. The cotter pin doesn't look original. Anyway, their is no excessive play side to side, or front to back while running the jaw back and forth. When I close the vise it comes to what I call a "natural,unforced" stop with 3/32 " gap between the jaw faces. If I go past this, with a tad more force, a 1/8" gap remains. If I push against the dynamic jaw there is about 1/4" of movement that I measure on the jaws, which the spring allows. When I hold this position with the slide forced back (with hand pressure) I measure 1/2" of compressed distance of the spring/washer /cotter key from underneath.
Is this all normal ? If not, can I try moving the washer to behind the jaw ? The vise is absolutely perfect otheriwse. It holds tight...there is no misalignment, jaws are dead square all around, etc. It just doesn't seem right with the washer in the front.

It is not original. (the outside washer)

I wonder if that was added because the spring was broken or too weak?

 

[jask]

The washer on the front was probably added to compensate for wear in the face of the dynamic. Here are a couple reference pics of a ( later ) No.5
The pin is a taper pin, and FWIW I do not think you overpaid at all, that is a great little vice in great condition.

 

[oldbrownhat]

ALLFAST, IMHO you certainly didn't overpay for that vice. 60+ years old and in superb condition.

I'm almost embarrassed to post a pic of my old beater but here it is, hastily reassembled and minus the lead screw and handle, which are awaiting the installation of the spring and a new retaining pin:

I'm going to repaint it as I think "Ol Yeller" needs a good refreshing. I've removed all the yellow paint I can without resorting to chemicals. Fortunately there wasn't much rust.

I'm wondering of replacement jaws from the current Irwin/Record line might fit as these ones are pretty worn.

The sun is coming out for the second day in a row - small miracle given what we've been putting up with here- so I'd better get a move on.


Addendum May 23: Got it all cleaned up and repainted, allowing myself a little frivolity on the handle:

The welding table has been repainted (just visible upside down in the pic) and is awaiting the installation of wheels.

 

[JZiggy]

Yes,
That spring clip is what I just reinstalled on this Craftsman 6" import that I just refurbished at work....it's a HIDEOUS affair. I will remove the big washer and see what's up. Maybe the spring became soft from overworking it ? If this is the case, any suggestions on a god replacement? Is any old Mcmaster Carr item going to suffice ? I saw JZIGGYs Paramo upgrade and will look into this....JZIGGY....if you read this, thanks for that sage upgrade idea ! I'll definitely source some Roll pi s and do this right.

Yes, spec out a roller bearing and pair of washers to go under the spindle in front of the slide. Also, I had good success using a wave washer and spacer rather than a big ol' compression spring inside the slide. The spring tension is really nice to reduce lash but doesn't need to be more than a few pounds to preload everything. Especially after you install the bearing it will compress the original spring more and make it to tight.

 

[plday]

Thanks to everyone who posted in this thread. I just signed up so I could see the pictures today. I picked up a No3 vise last week. It was seized up I have the lead screw out now. I think I can tap the jaw out with a hammer but that will have to wait til morning because the kids are sleeping.

I had a similar screw with my spring and washer. I know how to fix it now thanks to these posts. Thanks!

 

[Gilgamesh1]

Nice vices! I too found a Record #3 that had been painted over and looked ugly but was mechanically fine. I applied some lacquer thinner and got it down to the original paint. I found new jaws on amazon from Irwin and they fit perfectly.

 

[Gilgamesh1]

Here is a before and after.

 

[DavidR8]

Did the #3 model come with and without a swivel base?


Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal

 

[dutchgray]

Swivel bases were a separate item that attached using the normal bolt holes as retention and locking.
They are a bit of an afterthought and not very good, almost never seen in the UK but much more common in some countries. They would have offered a base for all sizes at one time.

 

[DavidR8]

Thanks @dutchgray. I'm looking at a minty #3 at noon today.

 

[felixm]

Good day all. I've inherited a No.3 in great condition from a grandparent on my wife's side. Sat in her gradfather's garage unused for 20 years so I decided to disassemble, clean and respray. I couldn't figure out how to remove the washer pin and ended up shearing it. Disappointed in myself! Trying to find a replacement online I found this great resource. Can anyone confirm the name of the pin I should search for? I've heard it referenced as roll or tapper pin. It appears to be a split pin with diameter going from 3mm to 3.1mm. Thanks to all.

 

[steaks&anvils]

Good day all. I've inherited a No.3 in great condition from a grandparent on my wife's side. Sat in her gradfather's garage unused for 20 years so I decided to disassemble, clean and respray. I couldn't figure out how to remove the washer pin and ended up shearing it. Disappointed in myself! Trying to find a replacement online I found this great resource. Can anyone confirm the name of the pin I should search for? I've heard it referenced as roll or tapper pin. It appears to be a split pin with diameter going from 3mm to 3.1mm. Thanks to all.

felixm, welcome to GJ.

edit: dutchgray had better help, below.

​

 

[dutchgray]

Good day all. I've inherited a No.3 in great condition from a grandparent on my wife's side. Sat in her gradfather's garage unused for 20 years so I decided to disassemble, clean and respray. I couldn't figure out how to remove the washer pin and ended up shearing it. Disappointed in myself! Trying to find a replacement online I found this great resource. Can anyone confirm the name of the pin I should search for? I've heard it referenced as roll or tapper pin. It appears to be a split pin with diameter going from 3mm to 3.1mm. Thanks to all.

They did use roll pins for a long time. If it measures 3 - 3.1mm I bet it was a 1/8" roll pin. A split pin will work just fine though.

 

[felixm]

Hi all. Note to say I purchased 3 different pins from Accu as they didn't have the exact dimensions as I recorded them however I've just fitted the smallest (top pic alongside broken pin) ... it fitted perfectly. Thanks to all for input.