reinstalling bend pak lift

[benchracer1]

gettin ready to reinstall my bend pak 10000 lb lift. I want to t into a 50 amp 220 circuit with a 30 amp #10 wire circuit. I really dont want to go all the way back to the subpanel to install a dedicated circuit but at the same time i need to provide protection for the number 10 wire. Can anybody give me some ideas on how to accomplish this?

 

[sberry]

It's not so much protecting the wire in this case as protection from short circuit within the unit. There is going to be a max breaker size it can be connected to. What protects the wire is the connected load. The wire may possibly be as small as 14 with 30 breaker in this type of circuit.
If you want to use the existing will need to add smaller or change over current protection. Personally would consider a new. Run if humanly possible , most require a 12 or better in cable and breaker up to 30.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

Can you make that into a small 50amp subpanel? Then make circuits for the original 50amp device and the new 30amp lift? Use a small 6 or 12 space panel and you’ve got some room to grow more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[benchracer1]

That's kinda what I was thinking. I could run the 50 amp #6 into a small subpanel ,split it there and create the 30 amp circuit there. Then continue the 50 amp out of there

 

[75gmck25]

My understanding is that you could install a 50 amp subpanel with multiple breakers, and one of the breakers in the subpanel could also be for your new 50 amp circuit. The new circuit would have to be installed to meet code requirements for the new device.

It seems a little counterintuitive to have one circuit breaker in the panel the same size as the breaker for the subpanel itself, but not against code.

Bruce

 

[sberry]

There are a couple ways to do it, could tap it and use a 2 space or 1 armed bandit for additional protection. The reason for the redundant breaker in the panel is the need to hook the wires on. In theory could split bolt a 10 on to the 6 and add breakers.

 

[pattenp]

There are a couple ways to do it, could tap it and use a 2 space or 1 armed bandit for additional protection. The reason for the redundant breaker in the panel is the need to hook the wires on. In theory could split bolt a 10 on to the 6 and add breakers.

If I understand what you are saying I don't think so. The protection for the #10 needs to be upstream or at the connection point to the #6. You shouldn't directly hook a #10 to a #6 that's protected at 50A.

 

[alfredeneuman]

If I understand what you are saying I don't think so. The protection for the #10 needs to be upstream or at the connection point to the #6. You shouldn't directly hook a #10 to a #6 that's protected at 50A.

It's allowable because of the feeder tap rules. (the tap must be in conduit)
Any size wire can be tapped if it's not over 10' from the overcurrent device.
It has to be 1/3 the ampacity of the feeder conductor if it's under 25'.

2008 NEC 240.2

 

[benchracer1]

I'll try to make a quick drawing this evening and post it

 

[sberry]

This was common on old 60A fuse service. There is a set of feed thru lugs just under the mains, most often they had a cable hooked to them to feed a one armed bandit in homes for water heaters. In garages they were commonly hooked to mechanics compressors and the range fuses were 50A and had a 10 or better wire to a welder recept.
The feed thru had to be 10 or better for 60A. The lugs are not very big. I don't think they would take a 6 but it's been a while since I saw one.

 

[sberry]

As Alfred said there are rules to the tap but,,, a breaker can protect a wire ahead of it as well as after. After is either or both short circuit and thermal and if the wire is ahead it's thermal. Any overload trips it. The wire must be sized to provide short circuit from its source protection.
Very general but.. 8 after 100A, 10 after 60, 12 after 50 and 14 after 30. Basically the same limits to many motors and some welder circuits and some ground wires. Again,,, generalization as a disclaimer.

 

[benchracer1]

Thanx guys. From what I'm understanding is I need to exit the 125 panel through a breaker and enter the 50 amp panel through the lugs. My drawing has it exiting the 125 through the lugs

 

[pattenp]

It's allowable because of the feeder tap rules. (the tap must be in conduit)
Any size wire can be tapped if it's not over 10' from the overcurrent device.
It has to be 1/3 the ampacity of the feeder conductor if it's under 25'.

2008 NEC 240.2

I wasn't considering a feeder tap because I had a regular circuit in mind with no short distance limits and the other requirements needed to be met for a feeder tap. Actually feeder taps not over 25' can be no smaller than 1/3 ampacity of the overcurrent device protecting the feeder conductors, not that it has to be 1/3 the ampacity of the feeder conductor. If 10' or less the tap conductor ampacity can be no smaller than 1/10 the ampacity of the overcurrent device protecting the feeder conductors. 2011 NEC 240.21.

 

[sberry]

I figured you knew, that babble was for others.

 

[checkthisout]

gettin ready to reinstall my bend pak 10000 lb lift. I want to t into a 50 amp 220 circuit with a 30 amp #10 wire circuit. I really dont want to go all the way back to the subpanel to install a dedicated circuit but at the same time i need to provide protection for the number 10 wire. Can anybody give me some ideas on how to accomplish this?

Why don't you want to run it all the way back? Are you still wanting to weld with the welder circuit?

If you no longer want it for welding just splice into the circuit and change out the breaker in the main panel to the 25 amp needed for your lift.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Patten P

Thanks for the updated info

#10 qualifies for the 50A circuit in both those cases

 

[sberry]

If I understand what you are saying I don't think so. The protection for the #10 needs to be upstream or at the connection point to the #6. You shouldn't directly hook a #10 to a #6 that's protected at 50A.

If it had a lesser recept,,, or was wired to something that needed smaller ocpd it would need to be added. For instance, I put 2 welder recepts on in a Buds garage spliced to a 6, both have smaller wire. He had a buzzer and now got a 211 and 375 cutter. I think we used 10 for both as I recall, it left it legal for the buzzer and he didn't need to plug and unplug the new units all the time.
The machines are legal for 50A breakers, even running both wouldn't overload any part of it.

 

[benchracer1]

I am running the 50 amp for welder, 30 for phase converter and 30 for lift. I figured putting that little 50 amp panel downstream of the 125 would give me a place to t off to the 2 30 amps and protect the equipment and wire with the appropriate breaker and at the same time not use all the slots in my 125 panel with 220 breaker. I have an air compressor as well but I have it on a dedicated circuit. The lift, welder and phase converter never operate at the same time. Basically in a nutshell I'm creating a 220 subpanel for those three items. I figured that being 16 ft from the original 125 panel that it would be prudent to put a 50 amp breaker in the 125 amp panel and run it to the lugs on the smaller panel and then breaker the three circuits out of there...steve

 

[sberry]

You can do that. Depending on the wiring method may be able to use a 60. Also,,, just because a piece is on a 30 doesn't mean it uses that much. The actual to the lift is likely about 15, some of the modern welders 25 wide open. A buzzer or 250 wire feeder about 40.