Released r22?

[machsnell]

I hope I am missing something here. I had a friend of am employee who is a certified has guy come out and capture the r22 in and old ac unit and a heat pump with a shot compressor.

I saw him wait and vac out everything. It went in his r22 tank.

I was removing the condensing unit in the house last night and when I broke through the 3/8 line it let out a huge hiss of ?? Hopefully not r22? It released air or gas for about a minute from the pressure.

Is that normal? Did he or I miss something? I really hope he or I didn't screw something up and dump r22 into the atmosphere.



Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

 

[BillK]

Was it actually releasing something or did it possibly have a vacuum in it from him recovering the R22 ?

 

[machsnell]

I am not sure. It was definitely pushing out air or gas. It was a little wet almost like a light oil.


Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

 

[machsnell]

The smaller liquid line didn't have much liquid in it a very small amount came out with the air or gas.

The larger suction line wasn't pressurized at all when I broke it after the liquid line.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

 

[bigdav160]

I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[samss]

Sounds like the recovery system didn't remove "all" of the R22. The system oil will have refrigerant mixed in it and with time and heat will release it. If there was a lot of refrigerant, you would have seen fog and it would have lasted for several minutes. I wouldn't be concerned about it.

 

[machsnell]

Great thank you. I feel much better now.

So even when the refrigerant is removed from lines they are still under pressure correct?

I have to remove the other ac unit as well amd just want to be prepared. It scared the **** out of me when i broke through the line. I expected it to be dead.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

 

[mcbane]

Great thank you. I feel much better now.

So even when the refrigerant is removed from lines they are still under pressure correct?

I have to remove the other ac unit as well amd just want to be prepared. It scared the **** out of me when i broke through the line. I expected it to be dead.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

The pump down got rid of liquid refrigerant and available gas phase refrigerant.

So not under pressure when done pumping but under pressure some time later. The oil holds a small amount of refrigerant gas the same way soda holds carbonation. You can open a soda bottle and let a bunch of CO2 out but if you reseal the bottle and reopen it a while later more CO2 will escape since some CO2 came out of solution and repressurized the bottle.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[65ranchero]

It's the same on autos, to change a "O" ring or such , you recover refrigerant and bring it to a vacuum open the line and you will get a small amount of pressure ,not much but it can be there.
Temp makes a difference it could of been cold when evacuated and then temp warms up and slight build up of residual pressure.

 

[kbeefy]

There is some expansion due to temp, but I would suspect there is a blockage in the lines preventing it from fully evacuating.

A system could never hold a vacuum with 'residual' refrigerant in it.

I have evacuated many, many systems. The empty ones stay at 25"+ vacuum for days if I leave them there. The ones with refrigerant in them do not.

 

[bigdav160]

The refrigerant and oil are soluble with each other. Under a vacuum the refrigerant is basically "boiling out" of the oil. When it's cooler or the system hasn't run in a while, the oil is more viscous and it takes longer for the refrigerant to boil out. That's why you'll sometimes see the pressure rise.

 

[machsnell]

Thanks for all of the analogies and examples gentlemen. Much appreciated. It makes a bit a more sense to me now although I still don't completely understand the way the system works with blockages etc. Hvac tech said he would check the lines as he stated something similar.

I was just surprised there was that much pressure in the line after I thought everything had been removed. If anything I thought it would take a gasp for air instead of releasing it for a full minute. Especially a 3/8 inch line.

Anyway as always thanks for everyone's insight and expertise.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

 

[PoorUB]

The guy that recovered it probably stopped a bit early, or some was trapped in the oil. I doubt you released much, and don't worry the EPA won't come after you! Trust me, there is still thousands of pounds of R-22 released every day, leaks, or accidental or on purpose. I know of HVAC companies that have never recovered a bit of refrigerant!

 

[karoc]

I remember yrs ago reading an article about how the chlorine in people's swimming pools does more damage to ozone than what 22 does when EPA started the recovery mandate.

 

[Jim greengo]

I remember yrs ago reading an article about how the chlorine in people's swimming pools does more damage to ozone than what 22 does when EPA started the recovery mandate.

Yep.

 

[Jim greengo]

I remember yrs ago reading an article about how the chlorine in people's swimming pools does more damage to ozone than what 22 does when EPA started the recovery mandate.

Yep.

 

[Milton Shaw]

Freon 12 is heaver than air, so how does it get to the stratosphere to cause ozone damage. Nobody has ever been able to make me understand how it could get up there. If its the chlorine, then bleach, and swimming pools would be banned too. There is more Freon released by tweekers stealing copper than is released by servicers. Why doesn't the EPA go after the tweekers and hit them with the $10,000 dollar fine per release?

 

[rlitman]

Freon 12 is heaver than air, so how does it get to the stratosphere to cause ozone damage. Nobody has ever been able to make me understand how it could get up there. If its the chlorine, then bleach, and swimming pools would be banned too. There is more Freon released by tweekers stealing copper than is released by servicers. Why doesn't the EPA go after the tweekers and hit them with the $10,000 dollar fine per release?

Carbon dioxide is heavier than air, so how come people don't asphyxiate whenever they enter a basement or swim in a lake? The atmosphere doesn't layer by density like that.

 

[Jim greengo]

Dont over react,and sure as hell dont advertise it online!
If it makes you feel better,send me a check for $40,000.00 .
And try not to do it again!

 

[toyotadriver]

I wouldn't worry about it. I also wouldn't worry about releasing the entire charge....the only real reason not to is the cost of R22.

 

[Strouty]

At least now we know who to blame when the world ends in a couple years due to climate change...........

 

[American Locomotive]

Yep.

Not yep. The chlorine in your pool does not form compounds that readily make their way up to the atmosphere where the ozone layer resides. Most free chlorine that manages to escape your pool will combine with moisture in the air to form hydrochloric acid - where it will just precipitate right back out.

Freon 12 is heaver than air, so how does it get to the stratosphere to cause ozone damage. Nobody has ever been able to make me understand how it could get up there.

How does a river carry grains of sand and mud with it, if sand and mud are heavier than water? Yes it's more dense, but air currents still carry it around up above the stratosphere.

There is more Freon released by tweekers stealing copper than is released by servicers. Why doesn't the EPA go after the tweekers and hit them with the $10,000 dollar fine per release?

...uh they do? Releasing most refrigerants is illegal regardless of what your job title is.

 

[bigdav160]

Carbon dioxide is heavier than air, so how come people don't asphyxiate whenever they enter a basement or swim in a lake? The atmosphere doesn't layer by density like that.

R12 is almost 5x heavier than air and 2.5x heavier than CO2. CO2 concentrations are only 400ppm. (.04% of the atmosphere)

There are many more believable explanations for ozone layer depletion (fluctuations in solar radiation)

 

[Jim greengo]

Not yep. The chlorine in your pool does not form compounds that readily make their way up to the atmosphere where the ozone layer resides. Most free chlorine that manages to escape your pool will combine with moisture in the air to form hydrochloric acid - where it will just precipitate right back out.

How does a river carry grains of sand and mud with it, if sand and mud are heavier than water? Yes it's more dense, but air currents still carry it around up above the stratosphere.


...uh they do? Releasing most refrigerants is illegal regardless of what your job title is.

Ok,what happens to all of the stuff in the oceans that evaporates into the air?

 

[Jim greengo]

How do cows farting get into the atmosphere?

 

[tdkkart]

You will die a horrible death before the weekend.....

 

[American Locomotive]

Ok,what happens to all of the stuff in the oceans that evaporates into the air?

Water? It attaches itself to dirt particles, condenses and then precipitates bacl down. CFCs have a much lower vapor pressure and won't condense.

 

[Forgottonia]

This is a bit off track, but here's an interesting article called "The History of Freon." LINK

In regards to releasing R22 into the atmosphere, I'm still on the fence as to how dangerous it is. The R22 ban might have been more about increasing revenue than depleting the ozone. /sorry for thread derail

 

[Jim greengo]

Water? It attaches itself to dirt particles, condenses and then precipitates bacl down. CFCs have a much lower vapor pressure and won't condense.

I was thinking of the salt in the water.

 

[American Locomotive]

I was thinking of the salt in the water.

The salt stays behind, because it's in solution with the water. The solvent evaporates, leaving the solute behind.

 

[Steve in UT]

Why doesn't the EPA go after the tweekers and hit them with the $10,000 dollar fine per release?

I guess somewhat related. I have a friend who was sent to prison for burning insulation off copper wire on federal land (BLM.) Charged him with "environmental sabotage"

 

[metlmunchr]

There is some expansion due to temp, but I would suspect there is a blockage in the lines preventing it from fully evacuating.

A system could never hold a vacuum with 'residual' refrigerant in it.

I have evacuated many, many systems. The empty ones stay at 25"+ vacuum for days if I leave them there. The ones with refrigerant in them do not.

I agree with all the above and would add that if it took a minute or more to blow out the remaining gas, then there was far more residual gas in the system than would be absorbed in the oil.

Just a guess, but if there's a restriction in the orifice and the guy hooked the recovery machine to only the suction line, then it would definitely be difficult to recover all the gas in the normal amount of time. The machine should be connected to both service valves, and, in a system with no known leaks, should be allowed to run until it not only pulls the system into a vacuum, but also until it holds the vacuum since any observed rise in pressure indicates there's still recoverable gas in the system.

A heat pump with no power shifts the reversing valve to the heat position. Recovering from only the suction line would shift the orifice piston to the cooling position. If the orifice is blocked, or partially blocked, then the recovery machine would have to pull a significant portion of the gas backward thru the compressor to get it out of the system since the suction line is actually the discharge line when in the heating position.

OTOH, if the machine is connected to both the liquid and suction lines, it should recover all the gas even if there's a line restriction somewhere in the circuit.

I've run across two split heat pumps over the years that would heat just fine but kick off on the low pressure switch quickly when switched to cooling. One had a tiny sliver of copper, likely from reaming, partially blocking the orifice in the piston. The other had what appeared to be a piece from the core of a liquid line drier. Both cooled as normal once I poked a needle thru the orifice and cleared the obstruction.

 

[machsnell]

Thanks metalmucher that sounds like the most likely cause. Heat pump went out early last fall so it would have been in heating mode.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I remember yrs ago reading an article about how the chlorine in people's swimming pools does more damage to ozone than what 22 does when EPA started the recovery mandate.

Or one volcano.

Yep.

Freon 12 is heaver than air, so how does it get to the stratosphere to cause ozone damage. Nobody has ever been able to make me understand how it could get up there. If its the chlorine, then bleach, and swimming pools would be banned too. There is more Freon released by tweekers stealing copper than is released by servicers. Why doesn't the EPA go after the tweekers and hit them with the $10,000 dollar fine per release?

I taught the EPA classes and proctored the exams. The refrigerant decomposes over time and the Chlorine atoms (supposedly) then get up into the ozone layer, where they react with the Ozone atom, causing one Oxygen molecule to decouple. It takes the chlorine roughly 100 years to decompose and get up there, just about the same length of time we've been using CFCs and HCFCs and we've only "studied" the "hole" in the ozone layer for about 40 years, so how was it already up there in such high concentrations 50 years ago? A third point is O2 exposed to UV radiation makes O3 (ozone). The layer is somewhat self healing.

Huffers and HVAC thieves get caught, do jail time and pay fines all the time. The current fine is $37.5k per day, per instance.

Current thinking is the "hole" has always been there and gets bigger and smaller on a cyclical basis. The old theory is partially bogus. I'm not advocating ignoring the laws, just saying that they're really overzealous. I always follow protocol.

Tommy

 

[Walkers]

Every drop of refrigerant ever produced will find its way to atmosphere eventually, I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

 

[Jeepster04]

Carbon dioxide is heavier than air, so how come people don't asphyxiate whenever they enter a basement or swim in a lake? The atmosphere doesn't layer by density like that.

In some instances (not in your basement), you will asphyxiate. Its called blackdamp.

 

[Milton Shaw]

delete

 

[Wrench97]

Whatever you do don't post it on the internet where the EPA can read all about and drop by to issue you the fine.................