Remounting sub-panel box

[cls89]

1. The sub-panel in my detached garage is a surface mounted box that the previous owner recessed into the wall / flush mounted.

2. I want to bring out the sub panel box and remount it so it’s surface mounted. At the moment it doesn’t look right with the wall panel in place.

3. Question, the current electrical wiring is routed inside the walls and they feed into sub-panel box from the sides, so if I were to surface mount the box as is, the wires would be exposed. To keep the wires from being exposed on the outside part of the wall, am I able to feed the wires through the back part of the sub panel? It appears there are some knockouts on the back part of the box. See photo. My thought is I would mount the sub panel to a piece of plywood and then attach to wall. Wires would go through the back part of the plywood and into the back part of the sub-panel box which would keep everything hidden.

4. If this isn’t allowed, my next question is how would the wires transition from the outside part of the wall where the sub-panel box is to the inside? I would imagine conduit on the outside part of the wall but then how does it transition to inside of the wall where the all the wiring is routed?

 

[dave*99]

That's a Pushmatic panel. The breakers have a high failure rate. Throw it out and buy a new panel.

 

[cls89]

That's a Pushmatic panel. The breakers have a high failure rate. Throw it out and buy a new panel.

I’m also considering this and just buying a modern flush mount sub panel

Question, I have 3-wire (red, black, white) going from the main panel in the house to the sub-panel in the detached garage. No ground wire going from the house to the garage.

Both the neutral and ground Romex wires going from the sub panel box to the various circuits within the garage are connected to the neutral bar within the sub-panel box. Could I wire the new sub panel box using the same approach? Neutral and ground wires from the Romex going to the sub-panels neutral bar?

 

[dave*99]

You need 4 wires for your sub panel. A ground is needed. Neutral and ground should be separated in the sub.
Is the garage attached or detached? If detached you need 2 ground rods.

 

[sparky 1971]

It looks to me like it was more than likely installed prior to the adoption of the 2008 edition of the NEC. If that is the case, a four wire feed isn't necessary since it's detached. A three wire feed and a bonded neutral will be sufficient. You have a helluva mess there and other things need addressed more than making the panel look good.
The sealtight needs a connector at a minimum and there should be ground rods and I don't see a GEC making me believe there are none.

 

[cls89]

It looks to me like it was more than likely installed prior to the adoption of the 2008 edition of the NEC. If that is the case, a four wire feed isn't necessary since it's detached. A three wire feed and a bonded neutral will be sufficient. You have a helluva mess there and other things need addressed more than making the panel look good.
The sealtight needs a connector at a minimum and there should be ground rods and I don't see a GEC making me believe there are none.

I appreciate the reply. Just some follow up questions.

Question #1: 3-wire feed (red, black, white, no ground) was acceptable at one point? The home was built in the 50’s so this likely predates 2008.

Question #2: Connecting the neutral and ground wire’s to the same bus bar in the sub-panel is acceptable?

Question #3: Was it always a requirement that detached structures need to have grounding rods? Was this a complete miss during the original installation (whenever that was) or was it allowed at one point?

I can add a connector to the sealtight.

 

[sparky 1971]

I appreciate the reply. Just some follow up questions.

Question #1: 3-wire feed (red, black, white, no ground) was acceptable at one point? The home was built in the 50’s so this likely predates 2008.

Yes, prior to the adoption of the 2008 NEC, three wire feeds to a detached structure were permissible. I don't know the code off hand, but there is an exception that still allows it for existing installations.

Question #2: Connecting the neutral and ground wire’s to the same bus bar in the sub-panel is acceptable?

In your case, that is what you have to do, or get a ground wire out there. If it was a more modern installation you would have a four wire feed and the neutral would have to be isolated from the ground.

Question #3: Was it always a requirement that detached structures need to have grounding rods? Was this a complete miss during the original installation (whenever that was) or was it allowed at one point?

As far as I know, yes when there is a feeder. If was only one or two circuits, ground rods would not be required, but if you have a panel, you have a feeder.

I can add a connector to the sealtight.

 

[cls89]

Yes, prior to the adoption of the 2008 NEC, three wire feeds to a detached structure were permissible. I don't know the code off hand, but there is an exception that still allows it for existing installations.

In your case, that is what you have to do, or get a ground wire out there. If it was a more modern installation you would have a four wire feed and the neutral would have to be isolated from the ground.


As far as I know, yes when there is a feeder. If was only one or two circuits, ground rods would not be required, but if you have a panel, you have a feeder.

So I can keep the 3-wire feed and I can continue to put the ground and neutral wires on the same bus bar, I just need to install some grounding rods.

Ground rod questions

1. How many grounding rods do I need?

2. Is grounding rod installation a DIY type of job? Any tips / instructions / videos on how I can install the grounding rods?

3. Any safety concerns with the grounding rod(s) being located outside the garage? I’m mostly thinking of my kid and if he touches it, any concerns of electric shock?

 

[sparky 1971]

So I can keep the 3-wire feed and I can continue to put the ground and neutral wires on the same bus bar, I just need to install some grounding rods.

Yes

Ground rod questions

1. How many grounding rods do I need?

Two ground rods a minimum of 6' apart. Run a #6 bare copper wire from the panel through the clamp on the first rod and on to the second rod.

2. Is grounding rod installation a DIY type of job? Any tips / instructions / videos on how I can install the grounding rods?

If you can swing a sledge hammer you can drive a ground rod. A fence post driver works well until there is about four feet of rod sticking out, then you risk pulling the driver too high, off the rod, and slamming it into your parts where it hurts the most. I also know of two people that did that, but brought their hands down on to the rod, the rod went all the way through the palm of one hand, partially on the other. I have a spline drive rotary hammer that I use to drive them. If you have one of those or a SDS Max you could drive them with it. Or rent one.

3. Any safety concerns with the grounding rod(s) being located outside the garage? I’m mostly thinking of my kid and if he touches it, any concerns of electric shock?

If everything is installed right, there should never be voltage on the rod. It's there to shed lightning. Now, because of the three wire feed, if the neutral were to go bad there would be current on the rods from whatever is being used in the garage.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Yes, prior to the adoption of the 2008 NEC, three wire feeds to a detached structure were permissible. I don't know the code off hand, but there is an exception that still allows it for existing installations.

Typical "grandfather clauses" allow "existing" installations. Any "significant" remodel requires upgrading to current codes.

I won't tell if you don't !

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I’m also considering this and just buying a modern flush mount sub panel

Question, I have 3-wire (red, black, white) going from the main panel in the house to the sub-panel in the detached garage. No ground wire going from the house to the garage.

Both the neutral and ground Romex wires going from the sub panel box to the various circuits within the garage are connected to the neutral bar within the sub-panel box. Could I wire the new sub panel box using the same approach? Neutral and ground wires from the Romex going to the sub-panels neutral bar?

nope since youre replacing the panel you will need a new 4-wire feeder.

and its a hot mess so i would definitely replace it. theres no connector clamp for the feeder which looks like its fed with LT, dont see an EGC for grounding electrodes, doesnt look like the neutral bar is bonded....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It looks to me like it was more than likely installed prior to the adoption of the 2008 edition of the NEC. If that is the case, a four wire feed isn't necessary since it's detached. A three wire feed and a bonded neutral will be sufficient. You have a helluva mess there and other things need addressed more than making the panel look good.
The sealtight needs a connector at a minimum and there should be ground rods and I don't see a GEC making me believe there are none.

not allowed if hes replacing the panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes, prior to the adoption of the 2008 NEC, three wire feeds to a detached structure were permissible. I don't know the code off hand, but there is an exception that still allows it for existing installations.

In your case, that is what you have to do, or get a ground wire out there. If it was a more modern installation you would have a four wire feed and the neutral would have to be isolated from the ground.


As far as I know, yes when there is a feeder. If was only one or two circuits, ground rods would not be required, but if you have a panel, you have a feeder.

since he is replacing the panel, that no longer applies.

 

[sparky 1971]

Typical "grandfather clauses" allow "existing" installations. Any "significant" remodel requires upgrading to current codes.

I won't tell if you don't !

Not in this case

250.32(B)(1) exception #1
For installations made in compliance with previous editions of this code that permitted such connection, the grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground fault return path if all of the following conditions continue to be met:
1) An equipment supply conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure
2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved
3) Ground fault protection has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s)

There is absolutely nothing there about updating for a renovation. Now, if a different feeder is run, that's another story.

The only thing that might be a concern in this case would be #2, but I really doubt there is anything metallic between the house and garage.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not in this case

250.32(B)(1) exception #1
For installations made in compliance with previous editions of this code that permitted such connection, the grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground fault return path if all of the following conditions continue to be met:
1) An equipment supply conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure
2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved
3) Ground fault protection has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s)

There is absolutely nothing there about updating for a renovation. Now, if a different feeder is run, that's another story.

The only thing that might be a concern in this case would be #2, but I really doubt there is anything metallic between the house and garage.

i know many jurisdictions that require it to be upgraded and wont allow that

 

[sparky 1971]

not allowed if hes replacing the panel.

I just looked it up, there's nothing there about panel replacement.

250.32(B)(1) exceptions. There's no effing way I would run a ground wire back to the source just because I'm changing out an old POS panel.

 

[sparky 1971]

i know many jurisdictions that require it to be upgraded and wont allow that

I'm sure there are. Just like here when a service gets upgraded the whole effing house needs to be updated making it a job that the average Joe can't afford. When I get out of the city and into the county and state jurisdictions, they are just concerned about what is permitted. I can't say that I've ever replaced a three wire feed panel outside of my own garage, but it got a new four wire feeder so I really can't say what would happen in this case if permitted.

 

[theoldwizard1]

i know many jurisdictions that require it to be upgraded and wont allow that

It is ALWAYS up to the local inspector !

Of course, if it never gets inspected ..

 

[cls89]

I don't have the resources to dig up the existing 3-wire feed and update with 4-wire. Is the best option than to just keep the existing pushmatic sub-panel to avoid any code violations?

 

[dave*99]

I don't have the resources to dig up the existing 3-wire feed and update with 4-wire. Is the best option than to just keep the existing pushmatic sub-panel to avoid any code violations?

The Pushmatic has to go.
Is the 3-wire feed in conduit?
What type of cable is it?

 

[cls89]

The Pushmatic has to go.
Is the 3-wire feed in conduit?
What type of cable is it?

This is what the incoming electrical looks like going into the garage. I’m assuming it’s in PVC underground?

Id have to check and see what type of cable it is. Last time I had the 3-wire feed pulled out for a different project there was no sheathing / identifier. At least not on the garage end. See photo.

 

[sparky 1971]

The Pushmatic has to go.
Is the 3-wire feed in conduit?
What type of cable is it?

Pushmatics were actually pretty good panels. They had enough breaker spaces for their day, but not enough for now and that's the biggest downfall. I've had to replace way more failed SQ D and ITE breakers from the same era than I have Bulldogs, and since they are a bolt in breaker, I've never seen a bus bar problem. Zinsco and ITE are an entirely different story along with Wadsworth and Frank Adams. I don't know if Siemens still makes a replacement Pushmatic breaker, I have quite a few laying around and in the event I need something I don't have, I can order Connecticut Electric replacements from Menards and have them in my hands in about five days.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Pushmatics were actually pretty good panels. They had enough breaker spaces for their day, but not enough for now and that's the biggest downfall. I've had to replace way more failed SQ D and ITE breakers from the same era than I have Bulldogs, and since they are a bolt in breaker, I've never seen a bus bar problem. Zinsco and ITE are an entirely different story along with Wadsworth and Frank Adams. I don't know if Siemens still makes a replacement Pushmatic breaker, I have quite a few laying around and in the event I need something I don't have, I can order Connecticut Electric replacements from Menards and have them in my hands in about five days.

huh? a pushmatic is an ITE Gould panel. it even shows this in the OPs pics.

 

[sparky 1971]

huh? a pushmatic is an ITE Gould panel. it even shows this in the OPs pics.

When I stated ITE, I was referring to what we now know as Siemens QP. Before Pushmatic was ITE, it was called Bulldog. ITE purchased Bulldog in the mid 70's so there are probably more Bulldog branded Pushmatics out there than there are ITE.

 

[dave*99]

Pushmatics were actually pretty good panels. They had enough breaker spaces for their day, but not enough for now and that's the biggest downfall. I've had to replace way more failed SQ D and ITE breakers from the same era than I have Bulldogs, and since they are a bolt in breaker, I've never seen a bus bar problem. Zinsco and ITE are an entirely different story along with Wadsworth and Frank Adams. I don't know if Siemens still makes a replacement Pushmatic breaker, I have quite a few laying around and in the event I need something I don't have, I can order Connecticut Electric replacements from Menards and have them in my hands in about five days.

I don't do this stuff full time... but over the years I've come across a Pushmatic panel having the plating peel off the back of the bus, and several breakers that would not close after they were turned off....including a main which was rather inconvenient. This spanned over a few different houses. Friends and family.
So I'm a bit biased.

 

[Norcal]

When I stated ITE, I was referring to what we now know as Siemens QP. Before Pushmatic was ITE, it was called Bulldog. ITE purchased Bulldog in the mid 70's so there are probably more Bulldog branded Pushmatics out there than there are ITE.

Bulldog Electric was bought by the ITE Circuit Breaker Co. in the 50's, ITE Imperial Corp. was bought by Gould Inc. in 1976, ITE sold meter combo panels with EQ frame breakers in the 60's under the name Bulldog Electric which was embossed in the cover.

 

[sparky 1971]

Bulldog Electric was bought by the ITE Circuit Breaker Co. in the 50's, ITE Imperial Corp. was bought by Gould Inc. in 1976, ITE sold meter combo panels with EQ frame breakers in the 60's under the name Bulldog Electric which was embossed in the cover.

What year did the Bulldog get taken off of the cover and replaced with the ITE label?

 

[rooster59]

what's the distance from where the feed leaves the house to where the feed goes into the garage?

 

[cls89]

what's the distance from where the feed leaves the house to where the feed goes into the garage?

I’d have to measure but it’s not far. It’s about 30 feet.

 

[Norcal]

Bulldog Electric was bought by the ITE Circuit Breaker Co. in the 50's, ITE Imperial Corp. was bought by Gould Inc. in 1976, ITE sold meter combo panels with EQ frame breakers in the 60's under the name Bulldog Electric which was embossed in the cover.

That I don't know, have a 2 gang Pushmatic meter combo, 200A main, 2-100A, mains & distribution sections, that if memory serves me is unmarked, had a list price of $203 in the 1971 ITE Speedfax. I kept it as a curiosity.