Remove pole in basement?

[ab0mination]

My parents recently moved, and they're working on finishing the basement.

The basement is 24' wide, and 60' long with metal poles every 10' of the length. They put up a wall that hides 30' of those poles, and a closet goes between 10' of them—so there's some structure built under 4/5 of the middle of the upper floor.

So in the remaining 20', there's one exposed pole. It really limits the layout of the rest of the room.

I know nothing about architecture / renovation / engineering / etc. I'd like to know 1. if it's even possible to remove the pole—maybe replacing with some sort of 'header'? 2. a rough ballpark cost to do so?

This would be in upstate NY. My father has been building the walls, doing the electrical, insulating & drywall, but he's not taken on any more technical project like this, and wouldn't if it requires expertise, but would if it's just time/work.

 

[Gear Box]

You may want this engineered so it is specified right,rambler vs two story load,all kinds of variables.
20’ span is probably going to have to be a steel beam unless you have lots of head room.
Most 18’ garage doors around here will specd out with 2 14” lvl’s glued and nailed to give you an idea of materials needed.

 

[ItsNemo]

I'd imagine you'd need to put in new footings (the posts are usually bearing on footings under the slab) and put a second beam that's sized to span the 20' to pick up the load of the floors above.

Probably only way to do it safely is have an engineer come in and design a proper structure. Additionally these sort of things usually require permits from your city and inspections.

Do it right, this is MAJOR structural changes.

 

[ab0mination]

Cool—they don't have the money for a massive project, and sounds like it's not something I can easily just throw money at so will probably leave as-is. Thanks.

 

[kbs2244]

The short answer is "NO"
The builder put them there for a reason.
Most often the reason is to keep the house from falling into the basement.

 

[sberry]

I agree the short answer is no.

 

[James-W]

I agree, short answer is no, but I would like to clarify that. It has been my experience that most things are possible if you are willing to pick up the tab for the work involved to make it so. Actually, I suspect you could remove all the posts with the right renovation, but I wouldn't want to have to pay for the work it would take in order to do that.

 

[PeterT]

Thats like trying to mix two 80 lbs of cement in a one bag mixer

 

[ab0mination]

The short answer is "NO"
The builder put them there for a reason.
Most often the reason is to keep the house from falling into the basement.

Great straw man argument.

 

[ishiboo]

The short answer is "NO"
The builder put them there for a reason.
Most often the reason is to keep the house from falling into the basement.

The builder put them there because it was the least expensive way to finish the space above. That doesn't mean there were not ways around it, and ways to remove it in the future.

The question of "can it be done" is a resounding YES. It definitely can be done. The cost is the undetermined answer. While we couldn't provide a $ amount either way, without any ideas of the load above there is no way for us to even start recommendations. Removing one post is DOUBLING the span of the beam. A 10' span is no big deal - a 20' span supporting an entire floor is.

It's not likely to be a "cheap" prospect, but if it perfects finishing the space it may be very worthwhile.

 

[BADSIX]

short answer very possible. might get by with a glue lam beam all depends on what's upstairs. you could probably post up a couple feet out from the walls and use a specified glue lam. you'll only be supporting around 18' easily done with a glue lam and around here there not very expensive.
Jay D.

 

[larry_g]

One way of lessening the project is to close the opening from a full open 20' to 16' by coming in 2' from each end. Can you live with that or must you have a full 20' opening? The size of the header shrinks a lot with just a bit less to span. I would think you would want the engineering done before much finish work is done.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[wrenchguy]

i'd do it and check for deflection using a dry line when u pull the pole out. the pole is prolly set 4" or more into the floor. make sure there ain't no joint in the beam above the pole b4 u start. engineers always over engineer stuff. if it drops down, just jack it up and put lally back in.

 

[ob355]

they have special L-shaped metal beams that bolt to both sides of the original wood beam then you can remove the poles, but you have to install two posts for both ends of the beam with new concrete footings for them. You must consult an architect for the correct size for the load they are gonna support. very common. and not very difficult to install.

 

[ard]

i'd do it and check for deflection using a dry line when u pull the pole out. the pole is prolly set 4" or more into the floor. make sure there ain't no joint in the beam above the pole b4 u start. engineers always over engineer stuff. if it drops down, just jack it up and put lally back in.

Some of the worst advice Ive read in a long time.






Ive removed walls, carrying loads with beams that are buried UP into the ceiling (so your head space isn't reduced). But eitehr way, this needs to be engineered- which means someone needs to do the math and calculations, not that you need to spend $1500 on a certified engineer. Know anyone?

Ive also done the trick mentioned above where you open up a 20ft space but only leave 16, 18ft- a little short wall gives you a way to carry the beam that avoids placing it INTO the perpendicular wall. Make a built in or something with it....

 

[bob15]

i'd do it and check for deflection using a dry line when u pull the pole out. the pole is prolly set 4" or more into the floor. make sure there ain't no joint in the beam above the pole b4 u start. engineers always over engineer stuff. if it drops down, just jack it up and put lally back in.

Poor advise.

 

[The Cobbler]

I have moved posts in projects over the years, but always re positioned them , but never spaced them farther apart than they originally were.
so if you have posts on 10' centers , I would be comfortable re positioning a few to get them out of the way.
eg add 1 at 5' make your space of 10' and then add another post. you end up with an additional post.

having said that, if it was a customers job, I would get it engineered nowadays to cover my derriere

 

[raffaelli]

All things are possible, including the removal of these columns. It really depends on what the budget is. The beam they are supporting will need to be modified to handle the increased span. A structural engineer can run the numbers for you. It is also possible the column which remains at the ends of the beam will need to be modified.

 

[850xpeps]

You can look at the size of the beam and material used and find a span table in the national building code and see what span you can do with your width and length. My guess is the builder is close to how many posts are required unless they added an extra one to change spacing for the previous layout. But if you’ve already closed out the remaining posts then you won’t be moving them. Also they are required to sit on footings. Usually which are 30”x30” wide.

Short answer is without putting in a new beam your wasting your time.

The dangerous advice of putting a string line on it is down right stupid. Just because it doesn’t sag right in front of you doesn’t mean it can support the weight long term. Those type of people are the ones that butcher structure because they don’t know the proper way to build.

 

[Lunker]

Might be able to double up the steel or use an LVL.

A good framing carpenter would know. They do work like this all the time.

 

[James-W]

Might be able to double up the steel or use an LVL.

A good framing carpenter would know. They do work like this all the time.

Not saying a good framing carpenter doesn't know how to do stuff like this, but it really doesn't matter, at least around here it doesn't. What I mean is, in order to do something like this you need to get a permit. Then you will need detailed drawings of the proposed changes and they need to be signed off on by a structural engineer. That's just the way it is around here, and I suspect it is very much similar in most places.

 

[driftpin]

Whatever you think you might do, I suspect it will take too-much headroom away to make it work. Just box it in. Work around it.

 

[RocketScott]

Not saying a good framing carpenter doesn't know how to do stuff like this, but it really doesn't matter, at least around here it doesn't. What I mean is, in order to do something like this you need to get a permit. Then you will need detailed drawings of the proposed changes and they need to be signed off on by a structural engineer. That's just the way it is around here, and I suspect it is very much similar in most places.

Exactly this.

I could, but I can’t. You need it engineered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ab0mination]

Attaching some photos for more context. One is a zoomed in shot of the bottom of one of the poles—not sure if that is of interest.

Pretty sure we'll box it in. It just limits prime seating for how we're going to set up a projector, but 100% not going to do anything that compromises the integrity or greatly increases chances of something catastrophic.

Headroom was another thing I'd thought about, but there is a drop ceiling so was wondering if there was some space to work with above.

 

[OH_Varmntr]

Our local lumberyard has a qualified individual that came out and spec'd a 4-ply 2x16 LVL to span a 32' opening in the basement of my 2-story house. They spec'd it for free since I bought the LVL from them. If I remember correctly, the LVL was around $725 plus the LVL lags and adhesive spec'd to secure the 4 ply's together. They told me a 3-ply would have been just enough but I went overkill and ordered a 4th.

I removed 4 poles and opened up a lot of usable space.

Don't overlook your local lumber yard.

 

[dfiler2]

It looks to me lie the header is up inside the floor which would leave you plenty of room for another header below the first one. Someone at the lumber yard should be able to take measurements and determine the size required from a table.

 

[850xpeps]

Our local lumberyard has a qualified individual that came out and spec'd a 4-ply 2x16 LVL to span a 32' opening in the basement of my 2-story house. They spec'd it for free since I bought the LVL from them. If I remember correctly, the LVL was around $725 plus the LVL lags and adhesive spec'd to secure the 4 ply's together. They told me a 3-ply would have been just enough but I went overkill and ordered a 4th.

I removed 4 poles and opened up a lot of usable space.

Don't overlook your local lumber yard.

And are your posts and footings under that post supporting the weight of the removed post large enough to support the weight? I’m sure your lumbar yard calculated the weight being transferred?
When they “specd” it did they have an engineer say that post can carry the added load? If they did it for free I’d say no. That would cost as much or so as you paid for the lumber.


It looks like you have a flush mount beam. So what should be done is remove post and cut joist ends to add width to the beam and add new hangers. But with an engineers input of course. It’s a little different deciding if you want to space your posts out in 10’ or 12’ space as opposed to doubling the span of a beam and weight on a post. A good framing carpenter will have an idea of what needs to be done but will go about it properly. A hack will just say oh ya we can do that.

 

[Lunker]

Not saying a good framing carpenter doesn't know how to do stuff like this, but it really doesn't matter, at least around here it doesn't. What I mean is, in order to do something like this you need to get a permit. Then you will need detailed drawings of the proposed changes and they need to be signed off on by a structural engineer. That's just the way it is around here, and I suspect it is very much similar in most places.

My framing carpenter is also a GC who can pull a permit

Operation and cost aside - the Point is this is totally possible

 

[James-W]

My framing carpenter is also a GC who can pull a permit

Operation and cost aside - the Point is this is totally possible

I can go down to city hall and get a building permit. Anybody can. But to get something approved you need to have detailed drawings and they need to be signed off on by a structural engineer. Is your framing carpenter also able to make detailed drawings and then sign off on them as being being structurally sound? Keep in mind, if the drawings are followed to the letter and the building collapses, (or has major issues because of the work) his neck is on the chopping block.

 

[Toomanytools?]

Sounds like you already decided against it. This is doable but you should get qualified Contractor or Engineer to be done right.
It looks like you have about 8' ceiling height where the new wall is going and then a drop ceiling grid.
You need to take into account the beam span, the span of the upper floor looks like 24' or something, plus is that span a continuous joist or lapped at the post, single story or two story above. More than likely you need to cut out the concrete and pour new footings somewhere in the minimum 2'x2'x12" size for the point load at either end.
That beam or LVL could be 16" to 18" deep which would cut into your headroom, you could inset it but looks like there is a sewer pipe in the way.
What ever you do don't put a string line on the floor and knock out the post to see if it moves.

 

[850xpeps]

My framing carpenter is also a GC who can pull a permit



Operation and cost aside - the Point is this is totally possible

Anything is doable lol you can pull your own permit. They won’t let you alter structure like that without proper drawings.

Your framing carpenter might come there and say oh ya I can do that don’t worry about it we will just add a larger beam. Don’t have him come back. Just because a carpenter says it’s ok to do doesn’t mean it is. And I am a carpenter. Lol I live in the country an see many different kinds of Hack jobs. But in the end your responsible for not doing research as well.

 

[joes169]

Attaching some photos for more context. One is a zoomed in shot of the bottom of one of the poles—not sure if that is of interest.

Pretty sure we'll box it in. It just limits prime seating for how we're going to set up a projector, but 100% not going to do anything that compromises the integrity or greatly increases chances of something catastrophic.

Headroom was another thing I'd thought about, but there is a drop ceiling so was wondering if there was some space to work with above.

Mobile/trailer home?

If so, definitely different dynamics than conventional lumber framing.....

 

[like2wheel]

Mobile/trailer home?

If so, definitely different dynamics than conventional lumber framing.....

Yeah
12 x 60

Wtf...