Remove ugly garage door motor and rails

[glowball]

Hello,
I am new to this forum and appologize if this has been covered by other thread(s).

My problem/decision is:
How to best eliminate the unsightly motor, drive rails, horizontal door rails from view and still have a garage door.

I am converting my attached carriage garage to a big party room complete with chandelier. This room has 2,000 sq feet and is 10 ft high.

I want to keep the functionality of having my 12 ft wide 7 ft high door that currently uses the standard type of 4 horizontal panels that are pulled up by motor onto horizontal rails about 7 ft from the floor.

Solutions that require manually opening of the door are OK since will only be opening it a few times a month.

My biggest issue will probably be the acceptance by the HOA (Home Owners Association) of the appearance of the new door from the outside.
I have 3 other garage doors at the same residence on the same side of the house with same matching design as the carriage garage door (none of the 4 garage doors are visible from the street, but are somewhat visible by one neighbor). All 4 doors are one piece standard 4 horizontal panels.

Solutions I am considering:
1) A nice good looking 2 piece swing out barn type door (manually opened).
2) A roll up coil door like the ones on storage units (manually opened).
3) Put hinges along the left side of my current door, and keep the latch on the right side (have a handle on the right side to manually swing in the big 12 ft door inside the room).
Note: the above 3 options would allow the complete removal of all existing rails and the motor.
4) Convert my existing door system to a 32 inch radius high horizontal rail system (near the 10 ft ceiling) and remove the motor and drive rail (manually opened).

Pros and Cons:
Option 1 (barn door) will look very nice but not match my other 3 garage doors and will probably be the most expensive.
Option 2 (coiling door) is the simplest but the least attractive (this is the option I most desire but fear the HOA on this option).
Option 3 (jury rig) is the cheapest and has a very wide swing in (but this is OK since I have plenty of space and will seldom be opening the door).
Option 4 (high rails) may be what I am forced into doing by the HOA and is probably somewhat expensive, but I can afford it.

Notes:
The HOA should have little say on option 3 (jury rig) and option 4 (high rails) since they both use the existing 12 ft x 7 ft door and the appearance from the outside would not change.
On all four options I would remove the motor and its drive rail, therefore opening the door would be manual.
On option 4 (high rails) I may build a shallow false ceiling to cover the horizontal rails near the true ceiling or just paint the two horizonal rails to blend in with the true ceiling.
For all four options I have some nice looking 8 ft high 13 ft wide Japanese style removable folding room dividers that cover the door inside the room or I could cover the door with easy to remove curtains.

The most interesting option for me is option 3 (jury rig) - I dreamed this one up myself - but am not sure:
a) whether the hinges on the left will be strong enough
b) the 4 horizontal panels will be stable on the right side
c) I could just screw in flat plates of steel on the right to bridge across the panels (3 plates total).
d) whether the door would be too heavy to manually move (maybe add a roller at the bottom on the far right).

Sorry for this long post but I have been in the planning stage for almost 2 years on this room (there are several other issues for this party room, but the garage door issue needs to be solved).
Your thoughts and warnings are appreciated.
Glowball.

 

[larry_g]

Welcome to the group. I'm going to suggest you move this to the general garage forum as it will get more traffic there. You currently have this in the introcuctions area where not a lot visit. I would suggest that you go option 2 and then paint the door to look like your other ones, or make a large planter box on wheels that will disguise the opening. Have a chat with the neighbor that can see it and ask his opinion.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[PugetDude]

High lift door with shaft drive opener.

 

[James-W]

Since you are turning the space into a party room then obviously you won't be needing the space for the usual garage type stuff. Because you just want a party room I would suggest removing the overhead door and then filling in the opening with a wall. Finish the wall on the inside with insulation, electrical wiring and drywall. On the outside wall have someone paint a picture of a garage door, or have someone make you a stencil of a garage door and stick it to the wall on the outside. From the street, or from the vantage point of someone walking down the sidewalk, it will look just like you have a garage door.

 

[HoosierMark]

If you want to leave the garage door, why not just install a box for it to slide into?. First get the tracks as close to the ceiling as possible, then build the frame around it (like an envelope) for it to slide into. If you do not like the looks of the inside of the door, build a light weight panel covered with material that can be screwed in front of it. This would also make a good acoustic panel for sound. If you want an opener, go with a jackshaft 8500 and you will not have the center track. Seems to me it would be a great party room to open up to the outside when the weather is decent.

 

[Voi]

How to best eliminate the unsightly motor, drive rails, horizontal door rails from view and still have a garage door.

I am converting my attached carriage garage to a big party room complete with chandelier. This room has 2,000 sq feet and is 10 ft high.

Another expensive option is a bifold door:

Both of those pictures are of glass bifold doors but you can also get regular garage doors that bi-fold like that.

But on the subject of glass, if you put in higher tracks and put in a regular glass garage door you could then put in can lights centered over a few of the glass panels in a glass garage door. If you also powder coated the tracks this might look decent and light the entry way to your party room. I would search Google Images for pictures of powder coated garage door track.

I suspect that raising a regular garage door and suspending a pergola type structure below the door would be the most cost efficient option.

 

[wssix99]

If you want inexpensive, why not just get rid of the tracks above the door and the opener? You can then unscrew the hinges connecting the panels and lift them up and out, one-by-one. This should be really easy to do if you have a helper. You'd just have to move the panels manually, store them, and hook/unhook the hinges manually each time you want to open up.

 

[James-W]

If you want inexpensive, why not just get rid of the tracks above the door and the opener? You can then unscrew the hinges connecting the panels and lift them up and out, one-by-one. This should be really easy to do if you have a helper. You'd just have to move the panels manually, store them, and hook/unhook the hinges manually each time you want to open up.

This is the part that I am finding hard to understand. He wants a "party room" and since he apparently has no other place to put this "party room", he wants to put it in the garage. But if the garage is turned into a "party room" then he has no real need for an overhead garage door. He certainly isn't going to park a car or a riding lawnmower or anything like that in there, so why even have an overhead door? Just get rid of it. But he is afraid taking out the door may cause a problem with the Home Owners Association. That's why I suggested he take out the door, put up a wall, then do something to make the outside of the wall look like there is a garage door there. For all practical purposes it will look from the outside that he still has the garage just the way it was.

 

[hippie2cams]

If I wanted an entrance to a party room and didn't want to look at the hardware of the garage door and opener, I would rip it all out and Install a double wide french door for access to the party room. Even if you don't have to use it for access It would look tons better than a garage door

 

[upndown]

Need pics of inside of Garage to see what the opening wall configuration looks like. Considering a garage door is mounted on the inside of the wall and you have enough side room, right or left of the door, you could simply remove door, build a sliding frame (think sliding gate) out of wood or metal then refasten door panels to the frame. This will allow you to slide it out of the way with out changing your elevation view at all.

Of course you will still have a bit of exposed interior hardware, but that will be unavoidable no matter how you want it to open.

 

[Ironcrow]

I've seen high-end garages with a dropped ceiling (sheet rocked soffit not commercial acoustic tile suspended ****) to hide the door hardware. Would you be satisfied with 9 foot ceiling in this room?

 

[upndown]

I've seen many different ways to try and hide garage doors. The only problem with running them above a false ceiling or soffit, if something goes wrong with the door, in some cases you can kiss that nice ceiling goodbye!

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

A folding door (either vertical or horizontal) or a roll up door would be less intrusive.

 

[wssix99]

But if the garage is turned into a "party room" then he has no real need for an overhead garage door.

He'll need the big door to get the 5' disco ball in and out of the room.

 

[glowball]

First thanks to all for your very inovative ideas!

I believe this thread will be a big help to others too who are wrestling with the "ugly motor/rails" issue as this thread provides many alternatives.
All of your ideas could work for the right environment.

The "break thru" information for me came from PugetDude showing a motor on the wall to be used in conjunction with the 32 inch radius system (rather than in the middle of the room).
I did not know such a motor existed. This pretty much tips the scales to use this method.

Pros for the 32 inch radius system:
Appearance inside the garage is greatly improved (the rails can be painted to blend with the ceiling as ducksface and I suggested).
Does not change the outside appearance of the house therefore no need for HOA approval.
Resale value of home is maintained and maybe enhanced (I'm an old dude and my wife and I are just a few years away from retirement home living).
Easy functionality of the big garage door when needed and uses an unobtrusive motor.
Material and labor cost to convert is under $1,000 (I got a ballpark estimate from a reputable installer).

Cons for the 32 inch radius system:
The only con I can think of is that the rails at the top of the ceiling will be somewhat visible, but the other options that completely remove the horizontal rails have their own cons.

Taking an idea from radrush to make the horizontal rails look nice:
I just now had the thought of putting up walnut (or faux wood) beams across the ceiling and enclosing the two horizontal tracks in them (of course leave a portion of one side of each beam open to allow the door to roll thru).
There is no need to hide the big door when it is opened therefore nix the false ceiling idea (the door will never be opened when the room has guests - there are other normal doors for the guests).

To clarify my current carriage garage situation:

There is an enclosed glass window breezeway from the main house into the carriage garage via normal human entry doors.
This breezeway has a door to the outside sidewalk. Guests would enter this way into the breezeway and then into the human door into the carriage garage.

The carriage garage has 4 doorways:
1) human door from the breezeway entrance.
2) human door to a 600 sq ft shop on the opposite side of the room from the breezeway.
3) human door to an outside courtyard (this is opposite side from the big garage door).
4) the big 12 ft wide garage door (which I want the rails removed or hidden).

I want this carriage garage room (which is 50 ft long by 40 ft wide) to be mainly a party room that looks like a ballroom but can also double as a performing theater (I'll have a small 30 ft by 12 ft wide stage at one end).

Occasionally I will need to use the big garage doors to bring in tables, furniture etc to unload/load from my van.
I plan to have a performing stage at one end to do my illusion show several times a year (I am a hobby magician - past president Nashville Magic Club).
This means bringing in some new magic/illusion equipment from time to time.

I bought 100 chairs from a high end hotel that was changing decor (these chairs can be arranged in theater style or around tables when doing a party).
The carriage garage is heated and cooled.
It currently has 11 florescent light fixtures each fixture has 4 bulbs that are 4 ft long.
I plan to replace these ugly fixtures and lights with one big chandelier and several smaller ones.
I plan to have about 14 sconce lights around the room.
All lights to be on dimmer switches (this is another reason to get rid of the florescent lights).

The floor is currently a plain tan color. I plan to paint it burgandy and then put in some nice rugs.

Thanks again for all your input and any new ideas/suggestions are appreciated.
Glowball.

 

[royslead]

Couldn't you just hide the rails and such with smoke and mirrors?

Anyways, I wholeheartedly agree with raising the rails to the ceiling and installing the motor to the side, and painting the rails and inside door to match the inside of the garage. As you justified, the home value would not be negatively impacted, and the HOA would not have cause for concern. If you went with some of the other ideas, I doubt they would yield as good a result. Good luck to you, and welcome to the fourm!

 

[glowball]

Well, as Tanya Tucker sarcastically said about me on her show Tuckerville "He's no David Copperfield" so I don't have that kind of magical power!

I did a birthday party show for her daughter at Tanya's mansion.
Tanya later appologized to me saying it was part of the show manager's idea to say that. We are still friends.

They like for events to be portrayed badly on these "reality" shows, makes the show more interesting. They kept me around for an hour after the show doing illusions/tricks for the cooks and servents that missed the show (they really liked it).

Anyway, all kidding aside, thanks for your encouragement.
Glowball.

 

[upndown]

Just be careful when painting rails etc. depending on your door type, some of the tracks are galvanized. I've seen many painted tracks that in short time looked like ****! But I'm sure they weren't prepared or painted correctly.

 

[glowball]

How do I move this thread to the General Garage forum as larry g suggests?

 

[Voi]

How do I move this thread to the General Garage forum as larry g suggests?

I'm pretty sure a moderator did this for shortly after this thread was first posted.

Keep us posted on your project. I once went to a big fund raiser and some private estate and much of it was hosted within the owner's barn. There were some antique tractors and vehicles pulled outside and then the entire thing was turned into a party palace, complete with stage, bar, etc.

In that case the ceilings were high enough and with the exposed trusses you didn't really notice the overhead doors that were open for the event.

 

[glowball]

Followup question:

Why is a 32 inch radius needed for the high mount. Why not just the same normal radius with longer vertical rails and have the normal radius mounted near the ceiling?

Thanks.

 

[larry_g]

Followup question:

Why is a 32 inch radius needed for the high mount. Why not just the same normal radius with longer vertical rails and have the normal radius mounted near the ceiling?

Thanks.

It has to do with the spring rate. As the door rounds the corner the load on the lift spring reduces. So if you have enough spring to lift the door vertically some distance you cannot just reduce the load to fast. Having a larger radius will control the load reduction rate to some thing that is more in line with the spring rate.

Just a guess here...

lg
no neat sigline

 

[wssix99]

As you get in to this project, here are some things to look out for:

- You can get a low headroom track mount in addition to the high lift kit. This will probably take a lot of design help to piece together, but it will get the rails higher by moving the spring to the end of the rails and off the wall:

- When you go to high lift, the tracks angle back from the wall as the door lifts up. This pulls the door away from the wall, as it lifts up but also requires more headroom between the horizontal track and the ceiling because the top of the door is closer to the ceiling. (Even though the track is horizontal, the door is not because the rollers must be spaced differently from the surface of the door to the track.)

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BTW - The pictures are for my high-lift kit. The ICF blocks at the intersection of my ceiling and wall, made me drop the horizontal tracks an extra 3" but this should give you an idea of how close the high lift tracks can get to the ceiling. (You'll need 9-12" for the extra height the spring sits above the tracks and for the extra distance the top of the door sticks up above the tracks. Of course, if you have lighting fixtures to avoid, you'll need more space...)

Your new tracks may also come with long horizontal sections so your entire door will go up against the ceiling. (I'm not sure if you'd want that, or not.) For my doors, above, I cut the horizontal tracks short so the doors are partially against the wall in the open position. (This cut back on the amount of tracks I have against the ceiling, reduced the movement of the door, amount of work the opener needs to do, etc.)

A low headroom kit, in addition to the high lift kit should allow you to get closer to the ceiling, but that comes with complicated tracks, linkages, rollers, etc.

When you get in to hiding the door, don't forget about the angles that back-hang the ends of the tracks to the ceiling!

I thought of hiding my doors completely with a drop ceiling (the doors would roll through a slit near the radius tracks and up above the false ceiling) but the structure would have taken up too much space and caused problems when I get my car lifts in. (Things currently will allow me to lift cars up between the tracks.)

Why is a 32 inch radius needed for the high mount. Why not just the same normal radius with longer vertical rails and have the normal radius mounted near the ceiling?

There's generally no relation to radius and the high mount. You will need a set of tracks and a spring/torsion bar set sized and shaped appropriately for what you want to do. The spring sizing will depend on the amount of lift and the weight of the door. It will also come with specially shaped spools to take up the cables, which will handle the extra leverage needed to lift the door straight and taper off the force as the weight of the door moves to the horizontal.

Low headroom tracks will have tighter radii, but having that comes at the expense of additional linkages, rollers, pulleys, etc. IMO - A bigger maintenance pain than they are worth.

 

[glowball]

Thanks guys for explaining the 32 inch radius.

I especially like wssix99 idea to:
"I cut the horizontal tracks short so the doors are partially against the wall in the open position. (This cut back on the amount of tracks I have against the ceiling, reduced the movement of the door, amount of work the opener needs to do, etc.)"

If I go the high lift route I will definitely do this. Great idea! I was going to have to sacrifice one of my chandeliers, but this will stop the door short of it.

This gave me a wild idea (that probably would never work) but here goes. What if the top 2 panels had continuous flexible guides permanently fitted to them instead of rollers. Theoretically this would allow the two horizontal rails to be even shorter (the top panel could ride clear off the rails and still be able to go back during closing).

What does anybody think?

 

[glowball]

Forget my last post (about flexible guides).
But here is something that should work:

Add a second 32 inch radius about 2 ft horizontally away from the first radius (so the second radius directs the door down on a 3 ft vertical rail).

When opening the door it would go up about 3 ft the over about about 2 ft then down about 3 ft (forming a U when fully opened).

This is assuming a 10 ft (or more) ceiling.

What this would accomplish:
The horizontal rails would only be about 2 ft long and near the ceiling.
Allows lighting fixtures closer to the wall (3 ft away).
Easy to hang a tapestry in front of the second 32 inch radius to hide the rails (the tapestry would need to be approx 2 ft wide, to hide the horizontal support bracket and taper down 3 ft to about 4 inches wide - or something like that).

Remember that I don't care how ugly things are when the garage door is open, only how attractive it is when closed.

Does anyone know whether this "U" shape rail is being done?

This idea is almost evolving into the concept of coil roll-up door, but with the advantage of keeping the standard attractive 4 panel garage door.

Opinions welcomed.
Thanks.

 

[wssix99]

Does anyone know whether this "U" shape rail is being done?

I wouldn't expect to see that kind of thing due to the spring/counterbalance for the door.

High lift tracks have special conical take-up spools on the torsion bars for the lift cables, which change the force the springs exert on the door as the weight transitions from the vertical to horizontal tracks. If you had a U shaped track, the forces on the springs would get really weird and unbalanced as panels went up and then turned upside-down.


If you really want to get away from the high tracks, can you pull off a sliding or swing door? You could convert the door panels you currently have to a solid piece (by adding a backing) and then slide or swing the door in against an interior wall. (If you have the additional wall space for something like that.) That would preserve your exterior look and would tuck the door completely out of the way. (You'd just need the extra wall space by the door opening to nest the swinging or sliding door, which most garages don't have.)

BTW - If you can make the door solid, pivot it on a lower corner and have it open up and over, (Kind of like a shutter cover.) I'd give you 1000 secret GarageJournal bonus points for that. Maybe you could even make the door solid, cut it down the middle and slide the two sides to either side of the opening? (If you don't have enough wall space for the entire door sliding to one side?)

 

[finn]

Since you are turning the space into a party room then obviously you won't be needing the space for the usual garage type stuff. Because you just want a party room I would suggest removing the overhead door and then filling in the opening with a wall. Finish the wall on the inside with insulation, electrical wiring and drywall. On the outside wall have someone paint a picture of a garage door, or have someone make you a stencil of a garage door and stick it to the wall on the outside. From the street, or from the vantage point of someone walking down the sidewalk, it will look just like you have a garage door.

OP should be asking this question on PartRoomJournal or Ballroom Jourmal.

This is the first time I recall anyone asking how to make his garage dysfunctional on this forum.

 

[glowball]

Thanks wssix99, I figured the U shape track idea would be difficult, you confirmed it. I'll probably stick with your first suggestion to use the high track and open the door just enough to clear the 7 ft opening thereby shortening the horizontal track length or hope the HOA approves a roll-up type door (has no tracks).

To finn:
I doubt that "PartRoomJournal" or "Ballroom Jourmal" would have any of the expertise that others in this thread have posted about garage doors. My room is a multi-purpose room and will have a vehicle in it occasionally so it is still a garage. New ideas may not work initially but may trigger a "eureka" for someone else.