Removing seal

[SteveH-CO]

This is an academic discussion, in that I weaseled the seal out using vise grip pliers, but here's the question:

The seal in the photo is a transmission input seal from a '78 Toyota Land Cruiser. The seal (upside down) is driven into the machined recess, and there is seemingly no way to 'get behind' the seal to pry it out. I bent over the seal flange, and resorted to much work with vise-grip pliers to get it out. I ripped the steel a few times, and mostly got it out due to luck.

What other methods could I have used? I thought of weakening the seal with a die grinder, but that's tough to do without damaging the recess in the casting. Internal jaw pullers and seal pullers have nothing to grab, since the seal is installed upside down. (Note that this is the factory-installed seal since 1978 - it wasn't mis-installed by a previous owner).

In the first photo, you can see the installed seal and the new seal off to the side. The second photo shows why you cannot access the seal from the back side. The last photo shows my vise-grip method, which was ultimately successful.

 

[gungatim]

same way you get a freeze plug out. tap and cave in gently with a punch/chisel?

 

[stikman56]

same way you get a freeze plug out. tap and cave in gently with a punch/chisel?

This is what I'd try after tapping the vise grips inward down near the seal to cave it in a bit failed, if it failed . Vise grips standing up more than in the picture is why I'd try it..... Persistence is key sometimes.

 

[Nor'Easter]

Expandable bearing puller

 

[cgrutt]

Ha, glad you asked, I had a similar problem but didn't want to ask

Need to look into these expandable pullers

 

[SteveH-CO]

Expandable bearing puller

Never knew these existed. Like this, I presume: http://www.skf.com/group/products/m...g/bearing-pullers/internal-pullers/index.html

 

[cgrutt]

FYI Harbor Freight has a set "on sale" for $75 plus they are running a 20% off sale, so $60. Or you could go with the Snap-on set for $400, ha, ha...

http://www.harborfreight.com/blind-hole-bearing-puller-95987.html

 

[Tig Master]

Hammer and a cape chisel will have that out in a jiffy.

T

 

[Skidonenko]

I know those pullers as "blind hole puller". But as the seal goes in the "dealership" world it most likely would have been chiseled to fold/cut it. Then silicon-ed back in place to make up for the now gouged case. A metal debur bit and a dremal might have been "easier"with a bit more control than a full size die grinder.

 

[mrolds88]

Something like this.

 

[Nor'Easter]

I know those pullers as "blind hole puller". But as the seal goes in the "dealership" world it most likely would have been chiseled to fold/cut it. Then silicon-ed back in place to make up for the now gouged case. A metal debur bit and a dremal might have been "easier"with a bit more control than a full size die grinder.

That sounds incredibly hack-job for a dealership.

 

[sberry]

That sounds incredibly hack-job for a dealership.

What is you figure dealers do other than the rest of us?

 

[jimgood]

What is you figure dealers do other than the rest of us?

Use the right tool for the job!

 

[1953mercury]

What is you figure dealers do other than the rest of us?

Imho, no better place to see hack work than at a dealership. Let the flaming begin.

a piece of flat stock with the end slightly rounded end ground, a piece of hard wood, or a larger dull flat blade screwdriver slipped under one side of the seal will usually pop them right out. Mike

 

[Kevin54]

I would have used a seal puller like shown by mrolds88. One end under the seal then pry it back and out. You can buy them pretty reasonable at Advance Auto or AutoZone

 

[SteveH-CO]

I tried the seal puller shown by mrolds88 - there was nothing to engage it under the seal. If the seal had been flipped over, you could have bent under the loose edge, and then engaged the seal puller that way. I suppose I could have punched a hole in the side of the seal to give the seal puller a place to engage.

The Dremel (rather than a die grinder) to weaken/grind the seal is a good idea. The die grinder can be a vicious tool.

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions - great minds on this site!

 

[joeswamp]

Interesting puzzle, I would have just grabbed the vice grips as well but I'm curious if there's a "correct" method. Does the shop manual mention a procedure?

 

[Crusarius]

Hydraulic removal.

Fill the area behind the seal with grease. create something whether it be a turned post that matches the inside of the seal or a bolt with electrical tape around it. Make sure it is pretty tight. Place in grease filled hole and then hit with hammer.

9 out of 10 times the hydraulic pressure pushing evenly on the back of the seal will pop it right out. Works amazing.

 

[gayler]

Would heating the part expand it and loosen the seal?

 

[bubinga]

Hydraulic removal.

Fill the area behind the seal with grease. create something whether it be a turned post that matches the inside of the seal or a bolt with electrical tape around it. Make sure it is pretty tight. Place in grease filled hole and then hit with hammer.

9 out of 10 times the hydraulic pressure pushing evenly on the back of the seal will pop it right out. Works amazing.

Yeah, I did that once to remove a pilot bearing from the rear of a crank.

 

[Crusarius]

thats how I learned it. friend of mine showed me.

 

[Ign]

Awhile back I bought a puller that screws (what is essentially a sheetmetal screw) into the seal, then pull out. Haven't used it yet.

 

[Ign]

Oh and I tried the "hydraulic " method on an '02 Taco pilot bearing; it did NOTHING. I finally figured out I had to wedge a chisel between the arms of my slide hammer puller as they were flexing too much and slipping out of the bearing. Once I kept the arms securely V'd apart force was directly applied and it worked superbly.

 

[sberry]

A lot of people assume there is some "they" in a dealership and that when you are not looking people do everything correctly and by the book. I had a job come in not too long ago from a Caddy dealer, must figure the owner will never have the hubcap off and find the stud they had galled and didn't bother running a chaser over. This is on a steer wheel,,, so much for perfect torgue, torque sticks, torque wrenches, not much good when 4 are installed and 1 half way.
But,,, the story goes on,,,, I would never take it to a jiiffy,,, no sir,,, I would run anyone off that didn't use a tubing wrench on my car,, yes sir, pretty much endless ******** from people dont know squat.

 

[owenst7]

Looks a bit like trying to get a spindle bearing out of a Dana steering axle. Could you cut the rubber ID away to the metal ID and then use a blind hole puller like Snap On A78? I think HF also makes a knock-off version.

 

[bubinga]

Hydraulic removal.

Fill the area behind the seal with grease. create something whether it be a turned post that matches the inside of the seal or a bolt with electrical tape around it. Make sure it is pretty tight. Place in grease filled hole and then hit with hammer.

9 out of 10 times the hydraulic pressure pushing evenly on the back of the seal will pop it right out. Works amazing.

Yeah, I did that once to remove a pilot bearing from the rear of a crank.

thats how I learned it. friend of mine showed me.

Yeah, I only did it once when I was about 22, on this old Ford Tow Truck the 2 bit garage had, I was working on.
It worked well.
don't think l ever tried again.
That old truck was funny as hell, The cab was like a 72, F 250 Or something,
don't know where they got the bed, someone made it, I think, and the boom looked like it was from about 1955.....LOL
He made a lot of money with that old truck though.....
wish I had the fore sight to take some pictures.......LOL

 

[bcschief]

A paint can opener works very well to pry and pull out seals. Very easy to overthink this.

Brian

 

[joecon]

I would pry up one edge of the seal lip then grab it with the vice grip
close to the part and use the side of the vice grip as a fulcrum to pry it
up do it in one or two places and it will pop right out.

 

[madoc1]

don't know the name of it, but have seen advertised in some car mag a pair of vise grips with an attached slide hammer. it was built for situations like yours. when i replace the seal in mine i don't remember a problem. also wonder how they installed it without damaging it?

jim

 

[mattygee]

To be Zen about it, your method worked and was therefore correct. Seals that press into a counterbore like that are always an exercise in judicious destruction to get them out. I usually bend over an edge and grab on with the vise grip slide hammer tool. Great tool to have in the shop, and easy enough to make on your own.

 

[SteveH-CO]

To be Zen about it, your method worked and was therefore correct.

That's great!

I can picture a vise-grip slide-hammer tool, and it would be useful for blind seal removal, as well as bodywork and misc. pulling tasks. Thanks for the additional postings on this.

 

[TLCObsession]

Steve -

Is there any reason the seal couldn't be installed 'upside down'? I have never run into a Toyota seal installed that way. Has anyown ever been in the transmission before or was it still factory sealed?

 

[SteveH-CO]

I know the history of this transmission -factory sealed. Yes - very likely that the seal could be installed the other way. It sees little stress due to its high location in the transmission and lack of pressure (atmospheric) on either side.

 

[morrillm06]

Not sure if its possible in the situation, but commonly we drill a hole in the case (metal part of the seal) and use a tap and thread it in, when it hits the transmission case on the other side it will back it out. usually two holes 180 degrees apart works good. Actually a lot of new seals we have been making ( I'm and engineer for a company that makes seals) come with two pierced holes the just have rubber molded in them, so no drill required just push the tap in and turn.

 

[SteveH-CO]

Slick - like removing brake drums that have threaded holes in the face of the drum. Nice!