Replace Breakers due to age?

[Abj87]

I have a 200A General Switch mains panel in my house, probably dating back to around 1979. I have already replaced two breakers due to frequent tripping (well below rated current) and flickering on a lighting circuit.

One of them had what appeared to be arcing/ carbon tracking on buss contacts.

Due to these issues should I look at replacing all the breakers?



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[rlitman]

If you're seeing damage to the bus, I would consider replacing the panel, rather than replacing the breakers.

 

[Norcal]

General Switch is no longer around so unless the panel lists alternative makes that are acceptable it may be a problem, and if the bus is damaged then the panel is scrap metal.

 

[penright]

I kind of have the same issue as OP (Need a panel swap).
I have a Federal Pacific (FP) that I am replacing. Can you help me on the clarification on when Arc Fault (AF) breakers are required?
1. I know any new circuits since a certain date. 2012?
2. If you are replacing a breaker?
3. If you are replacing a breaker, that happens to be in a new panel, but are not changing any circuits?
4. Will the OP have to do AF breakers?

 

[tyme2par4]

I kind of have the same issue as OP (Need a panel swap).
I have a Federal Pacific (FP) that I am replacing. Can you help me on the clarification on when Arc Fault (AF) breakers are required?
1. I know any new circuits since a certain date. 2012?
2. If you are replacing a breaker?
3. If you are replacing a breaker, that happens to be in a new panel, but are not changing any circuits?
4. Will the OP have to do AF breakers?

That's ultimately up to your AHJ. Most I've seen will consider you grandfathered in, and only apply the new rules if you are building new, or adding new circuits.
Some inspectors will require you to update everything if you are replacing the panel though.

 

[yeldogt]

I was not required to install the arc a few years -- best to go and check if your subject to inspection. I had a huge 200amp pushmatic panel .....

 

[bczygan]

I kind of have the same issue as OP (Need a panel swap).
I have a Federal Pacific (FP) that I am replacing. Can you help me on the clarification on when Arc Fault (AF) breakers are required?
1. I know any new circuits since a certain date. 2012?
2. If you are replacing a breaker?
3. If you are replacing a breaker, that happens to be in a new panel, but are not changing any circuits?
4. Will the OP have to do AF breakers?

I would never do any of the above.

 

[Norcal]

If not adding outlets or extending wiring, which I believe that the 2014 NEC allows a maximum of six feet of cable before triggering AFCI's, otherwise not required during a panel changeout. Any local amendments could change that.

 

[penright]

That's ultimately up to your AHJ.

I am rual enough I don't have to worry about the town, just what does the NEC says. The town I live in does not have an inspector. Since I am selling the house, there was a home inspection (HI). The HI said, I needed to have the panel inspected by a licensed electrician to see if it is ok. I look at the insides and all looked good. Then I did the research on FP. This was a young couple who had the contract on the house, after the research, I decided to replace it before I called the electrician. Since then the deal fell through, but I am still going to replace it. I want to sleep at nights knowing I did the right thing. When I called the electrician, he was the one who said, the town I lived in would not care, but since the house was on recorded of having a FP since 2012, then AF breakers would be required. That's when I started wondering if you just replaced breakers (not FP don't worry), do you have to install AF breakers.
I did some googling but did not find anyone quoting chapter and verse what NEC applies.

 

[tyme2par4]

In your case, you shouldn't need the AF breakers. As long as you pull an electrical permit, then you shouldn't have any problems.
Kudos to you for doing the right thing!

 

[penright]

Kudos to you for doing the right thing!

Thanks. Two reasons, one so I can sleep at night and two so my neighboor of 30 years would not have to defend me to his new neighbor.

In your case, you shouldn't need the AF breakers. As long as you pull an electrical permit, then you shouldn't have any problems.

The city I use to live in populations is about 400. I don't believe they issue any electrical permits. Last year my neighbor found out that they do issue building permits. When he asked who does the inspection, they said, no one. You just have to have one. Read between the line on that one $$$$$$.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I have a 200A General Switch mains panel in my house, probably dating back to around 1979. I have already replaced two breakers due to frequent tripping (well below rated current) and flickering on a lighting circuit.

One of them had what appeared to be arcing/ carbon tracking on buss contacts.

Due to these issues should I look at replacing all the breakers?

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That panel is garbage.

I wouldnt waste any more money on replacement breakers that are most likely expensive.

Save your money for a quality panel upgrade

I am rual enough I don't have to worry about the town, just what does the NEC says. The town I live in does not have an inspector. Since I am selling the house, there was a home inspection (HI). The HI said, I needed to have the panel inspected by a licensed electrician to see if it is ok. I look at the insides and all looked good. Then I did the research on FP. This was a young couple who had the contract on the house, after the research, I decided to replace it before I called the electrician. Since then the deal fell through, but I am still going to replace it. I want to sleep at nights knowing I did the right thing. When I called the electrician, he was the one who said, the town I lived in would not care, but since the house was on recorded of having a FP since 2012, then AF breakers would be required. That's when I started wondering if you just replaced breakers (not FP don't worry), do you have to install AF breakers.
I did some googling but did not find anyone quoting chapter and verse what NEC applies.

That doesnt make sense.

FPE panels havent been made since the 80s.

What year was the house built?

I would argue that the panel is way older than 2012 and thus should be grandfathered in before AFCI was required.

 

[penright]

That panel is garbage.
I wouldnt waste any more money on replacement breakers that are most likely expensive.

Sorry for my misleading post. Without a DOUBT, I am replacing it. Yes, breakers are expensive. I had to replace one about 5 years ago. If I knew then what I know now about the panels I would have done it then. Live and learn.

That doesnt make sense.
FPE panels havent been made since the 80s.
What year was the house built?
I would argue that the panel is way older than 2012 and thus should be grandfathered in before AFCI was required.

Again, sorry, yes the FP is original to the house. We bought the house in 86, so we have been there for over 30 years. Can't believe the death trap I exposed my family to.

Sir, have been waiting for your information. I may have remember the date wrong, but my understanding if the panel was changed out after date x, whatever x is, then I would have to use AFCI breakers. That's why I was looking for what the NEC said. To me it is a breaker replacement, even though they will be in a new panel. There will be no other circuits added. Maybe the same verbiage that confusing this post, I was confusing him. What verbiage should I use so he feels safe doing it? Does the NEC address it?

 

[Abj87]

If you're seeing damage to the bus, I would consider replacing the panel, rather than replacing the breakers.

Buss bar is in good shape. The aluminum is not corroded or shows any signs of arcing.


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[wyliesdiesels]

That panel is garbage.

I wouldnt waste any more money on replacement breakers that are most likely expensive.

Save your money for a quality panel upgrade

Sorry for my misleading post. Without a DOUBT, I am replacing it. Yes, breakers are expensive. I had to replace one about 5 years ago. If I knew then what I know now about the panels I would have done it then. Live and learn.

U missed how my above comment was in reply to abj87 NOT your comment.

Again, sorry, yes the FP is original to the house. We bought the house in 86, so we have been there for over 30 years. Can't believe the death trap I exposed my family to.

Sir, have been waiting for your information. I may have remember the date wrong, but my understanding if the panel was changed out after date x, whatever x is, then I would have to use AFCI breakers. That's why I was looking for what the NEC said. To me it is a breaker replacement, even though they will be in a new panel. There will be no other circuits added. Maybe the same verbiage that confusing this post, I was confusing him. What verbiage should I use so he feels safe doing it? Does the NEC address it?

Norcal gave u the low down in #8

 

[checkthisout]

Yeah, oddly enough, you do NOT have install AFCI breakers when you do an entire panel change, but you DO have install them (under 2014 NEC) if you change out something as simple as a receptacle.

Nothing wrong with installing them but at $45.00 a whack VS $2.99 for a normal breaker.

Ouch!

 

[Abj87]

That panel is garbage.

I wouldnt waste any more money on replacement breakers that are most likely expensive.

Save your money for a quality panel upgrade



That doesnt make sense.

FPE panels havent been made since the 80s.

What year was the house built?

I would argue that the panel is way older than 2012 and thus should be grandfathered in before AFCI was required.

What's garbage about the panel? Is a fire hazard like the FP panels?

I can replace the beakers Eaton BR units at reasonable cost.

Should i replace the remaining breakers due to the issues I had with the others? Or would it be ok to replace as needed?

Trying to get this thread back on track...




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[Norcal]

What's garbage about the panel? Is a fire hazard like the FP panels?

I can replace the beakers Eaton BR units at reasonable cost.

Should i replace the remaining breakers due to the issues I had with the others? Or would it be ok to replace as needed?

Trying to get this thread back on track...




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Is the panel marked to accept BR or other makes? Depending on the time when the panel was built, the makes listed if any could be different then what they are today because of companies merging.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

We don't have to install arc fault breakers on panel change outs/service upgrades either.
Only for new curcuits.

 

[mm08822]

We don't have to install arc fault breakers on panel change outs/service upgrades either.
Only for new curcuits.

Likwise here. On a side note, I do however add a gfci recept at the new panel b/c it makes no sense to me not to have power available right there.

OP, call the AHJ and get their position on the matter.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What's garbage about the panel? Is a fire hazard like the FP panels?

I can replace the beakers Eaton BR units at reasonable cost.

Should i replace the remaining breakers due to the issues I had with the others? Or would it be ok to replace as needed?

Trying to get this thread back on track...

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The panels dont have as bad a reputation as the fire hazard award winners but breakers come loose and resultant arcing can develop pits.

Do u have the panel label still?

I looked at Eaton's classified breaker chart and I dont see that panel listed.

Here is the chart.

And here is a thread on Mike holt forums about the exact same subject.

In the panel label pictured there, it lists Bryant breakers NOT Eaton BR breakers though Eaton BRs are the successor to Bryant breakers.

 

[Abj87]

Here is the panel label.

My understanding is a Eaton BR is a replacement for Bryant BRD with a un notched bus.

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[Norcal]

Siemens is the successor to ITE, & would use them over the BR, but then I despise the BR line.