Replace Home AC Unit Proactively or Wait for it to Die?

[SGKent]

wait until the slow season to get a quote if you want to replace it proactively. I have a carrier system. The dealer wanted $3000 to replace the compressor on the 15 year old unit and he really didn't even want to do that. After I penciled the Copeland scroll and other parts' cost based on RETAIL prices online, labor at $100 an hour for two people, back office staff costs, and drive time as well as shop overhead and a reasonable profit etc., I offered him $2250 to replace it and thought that was generous but sincere. He didn't even bother to say no, he just shrugged his shoulders and walked away. He told me a few days later when I called him to follow up that I should find someone else to work with - he didn't want his shop to waste their time working on a 15 year old system - that I should just spend $15K on a new one. I called another well known local shop, asked them what they would charge for the job with the same identical Copeland & Carrier parts. He took 10 seconds and said, "We do a lot of those, $2200 would be his price." (Same as what I had penciled a shop would charge.) I said do it. It was done 3 days later and the system is working like new again. HVAC is an industry in upheaval. You've got new laws, a push by some political parties for even more, time of day electric pricing pushed in some states by the dems*, people refusing to sell straws due to global warming, a push to raise benefits and the minimum wage for entry level staff, more rules and regs in some states, and the owners of HVAC businesses pulling their hair out. Some are trying to make the customer pay for that. Others just give a reasonable quote.

* The time of day pricing here has taken some people's bills near us this month from under $200 a month to $650 a month. They are in shock. Most is AC cost. That is partially why the first dealer wanted to replace the system with a more efficient one. We just cool the house using the old system while power is less and turn it off during the hours electricity is 3x as expensive. This one is 13 seer. Yes -we live in California.

 

[garageguy1]

The new Bosch condenser is an interesting entry to the market -- it's sort of a bridge between the two worlds.

Care to share a link or some more information about this ?

 

[SGKent]

Mine is so old you can't read the data plate so I don't really know when it was built, however the newness had worn off well before I bought the place 21 years ago.

As it seems lately the new stuff will run just barely long enough to make the savings pay off, I'm running it until it fails. So far I have replaced nothing. No caps, no relays, no boards, nothing.

My 1979 unit died in 2004 when a hose blew out. It was a 6 seer unit. I replaced it with a 13 seer unit, new furnace and new ducting. It paid for itself in about 10 years. Since then the cost is negative. I make money by keeping it. If you have a low seer unit you are throwing money away every time you use it. If you have a seer from 11 up then it is probably a wash cost wise to replace it. The savings vs cost can take 20 years to pay for itself. It is like solar - the cost to add it here is about a 20 - 25 year payback. Friends who bought solar got about 10-12 years between total failures where parts weren't available to fix it so they had to replace all of it. One has to run the math on cost before making claims they will save or lose money by upgrading.

 

[Notgrownup]

I have called a well respected Goodman Installer to get a price on a few versions. I think I will call a few and also maybe a American Standard dealer as well.

 

[bulletpruf]

Got the electric bill for our first full month here - $378. About what I expected for a 3600' house with 3 AC units during a hot Texas summer.

Anyway, the units seem to be working well, at least for now. Plan is to stay on top of the maintenance, but run them until they die.

Thanks

Scott

 

[yeldogt]

Care to share a link or some more information about this ?

Google:

They work with any TXV system -- somehow they modulate off the low pressure w/o communication.

maybe it's using a form of the old school refrigeration systems that used pressure at the compressor to set the temp.

They are getting very good reviews

 

[BD1]

Check your unit tag for freon type. Depending on your location , your oldest unit maybe R-22 which will be not avaiable as of 2020. The current freon for most residential is 410A.
When going from R-22 to 410A most manufacturers recommend a complete new system. All new piping, accessories, condenser,and evaporator coil. There have been installers that avoid doing it per manufacturer's instructions. When there is a problem the homeowner finds out the manufacture will not honor the warranty . Choose wisely

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Check your unit tag for freon type. Depending on your location , your oldest unit maybe R-22 which will be not avaiable as of 2020.

As long as supplies last you will still be able to get R22 as long as it's reclaimed or leftover virgin stock. You cannot get "new" R22 or R22 equipment.


Tommy

 

[BD1]

Als long as supplies last you will still be able to get R22 as long as it's reclaimed or leftover virgin stock. You cannot get "new" R22 or R22 equipment.





Tommy

Sure ,someone will have it. You'll need a loan to buy it.
As for equipment you can buy Nitrogen "dry charge " and put whatever you want in it. Many did this when 410A hit the market.


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[brewchief]

Sure ,someone will have it. You'll need a loan to buy it.
As for equipment you can buy Nitrogen "dry charge " and put whatever you want in it. Many did this when 410A hit the market.


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Who still sells a dry charged unit? I haven't heard of anyone offering them in a few years.

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[Notgrownup]

Had a local guy come today, said my ducts were fine, he is going to quote me on 2 Tranes and a few Arcoair and another one...

 

[abraham5]

Your idea makes sense if you are not ready for an immediate investment you can rely on the alternative you planned. The reply would be in a different way if it is the case for an individual AC. As you are having 3 units it's ok as per my opinion.

 

[Jim greengo]

Check your unit tag for freon type. Depending on your location , your oldest unit maybe R-22 which will be not avaiable as of 2020. The current freon for most residential is 410A.
When going from R-22 to 410A most manufacturers recommend a complete new system. All new piping, accessories, condenser,and evaporator coil. There have been installers that avoid doing it per manufacturer's instructions. When there is a problem the homeowner finds out the manufacture will not honor the warranty . Choose wisely

The manufacturer is not going to void the warrantee over a properly sized reused lineset that was flushed out before the new unit was installed.
It's not always possible to change out a lineset without destroying a whole lot of stuff in the process.

 

[Jim greengo]

Als long as supplies last you will still be able to get R22 as long as it's reclaimed or leftover virgin stock. You cannot get "new" R22 or R22 equipment.


Tommy

What he said.

 

[Jim greengo]

Who still sells a dry charged unit? I haven't heard of anyone offering them in a few years.

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Yeah it's been atleast a couple years since I've seen a dry r22 condensing unit at any supply house.

 

[yeldogt]

I have called a well respected Goodman Installer to get a price on a few versions. I think I will call a few and also maybe a American Standard dealer as well.

Is that a thing ..... a well respected "Goodman" installer ? Or is he a Trane dealer ..who also sells Goodman.

The Amana line is a good value ... being owned by Daikin ... the products have changed a lot

 

[Notgrownup]

Is that a thing ..... a well respected "Goodman" installer ? Or is he a Trane dealer ..who also sells Goodman.

The Amana line is a good value ... being owned by Daikin ... the products have changed a lot

I misspoke, he is a Trane Dealer. He also sells Arcoair... he can get Goodman if I insist, he proceeded to tell me he has had some issues in the last few years with some Godman components. He said I would be surprised of the price he could quote me on a single stage Trane XV15 I think...
He suggested a single stage instead of 2 stage or variable speed, again unless I specifically asked for it.
He said yes they are more efficient but I would probably never see the savings as far as paying back for itself, if I wanted more consistent temps and humidity control The it was a different story.
He was impressed with the Goodman lasting 17 years without issues except a capacitor.
I will see, I already got a ballpark $6000 for a 14 seer Trane single stage from one of the more expensive dealers around.

I will also get a quote on a American Standard ...

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Sure ,someone will have it. You'll need a loan to buy it.
As for equipment you can buy Nitrogen "dry charge " and put whatever you want in it. Many did this when 410A hit the market.


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The EPA banned "Dry" units in 2016. Dealers were supposed to stop selling them in June, 2016.

Tommy

 

[LS6 Tommy]

The manufacturer is not going to void the warrantee over a properly sized reused lineset that was flushed out before the new unit was installed.
It's not always possible to change out a lineset without destroying a whole lot of stuff in the process.

Good luck with your warranty. You have to braze 410a line sets. Any manufacturer that isn't run by idots will refuse warranty on a system that was not installed as per their instructions.

Tommy

 

[yeldogt]

I misspoke, he is a Trane Dealer. He also sells Arcoair... he can get Goodman if I insist, he proceeded to tell me he has had some issues in the last few years with some Godman components. He said I would be surprised of the price he could quote me on a single stage Trane XV15 I think...
He suggested a single stage instead of 2 stage or variable speed, again unless I specifically asked for it.
He said yes they are more efficient but I would probably never see the savings as far as paying back for itself, if I wanted more consistent temps and humidity control The it was a different story.
He was impressed with the Goodman lasting 17 years without issues except a capacitor.
I will see, I already got a ballpark $6000 for a 14 seer Trane single stage from one of the more expensive dealers around.

I will also get a quote on a American Standard ...

The multi stage equipment, while it does save money ... is as much about quiet comfort as cutting costs. In many states the rebates make the better stuff almost the same price (the top tier is still more money)

I did a few Arcoair AC units years ago in some rentals -- it was intercityproducts. They always had a good price point on just above average equipment.

Goodman stuff has improved .... I'm going to try an AMANA (goodmans top line) or Bosch for the next rental I do.

My local Trane dealer sells AMANA ... My last three projects have all used the Carrier 5 speed. IMO the best bang for the buck among the upper stuff.

 

[Jim greengo]

Good luck with your warranty. You have to braze 410a line sets. Any manufacturer that isn't run by idots will refuse warranty on a system that was not installed as per their instructions.

Tommy

You dont have to braze 410a linesets,theres plenty of 410a systems out there running existing r22 linesets that were cleared out.
I'm not going to rip out a lineset running from a 2nd floor hall way furnace closet through a main floor and a ceiling in a finished basement in customers house just because its had r22 ran through it in the past.
If it was just poked out through a furnace room wall and was a giant butchered up patch job that would be a differant story.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

You dont have to braze 410a linesets,theres plenty of 410a systems out there running existing r22 linesets that were cleared out.
I'm not going to rip out a lineset running from a 2nd floor hall way furnace closet through a main floor and a ceiling in a finished basement in customers house just because its had r22 ran through it in the past.
If it was just poked out through a furnace room wall and was a giant butchered up patch job that would be a differant story.

Yes, you pretty much do. Even if the lineset was not soft soldered (and you can be 100% sure it wasn't) and the lengths are OK to not have to upsize, it costs more to properly flush it and recondition it than to replace it. As much as I hate to sound like a jerk, you can continue to do it anyway you like. Doesn't bother me.



Tommy

 

[brewchief]

Yes, you pretty much do. Even if the lineset was not soft soldered (and you can be 100% sure it wasn't) and the lengths are OK to not have to upsize, it costs more to properly flush it and recondition it than to replace it. As much as I hate to sound like a jerk, you can continue to do it anyway you like. Doesn't bother me.



Tommy

We flush linesets pretty regular, it takes about a half of a large can of flush to do a normal lineset, a long large one might use a whole can, we pay around 100$ for a large can of RX-11 flush. I have sat through several different manufacturers training and they have all recognized flushing as an approved method. The refrigerant doesn't matter, it's the oil that is the problem.

It does take some time to flush, we prefer to replace but it's often not practical.

Sizing is another matter, there are times that you have an existing lineset that is a different size then the new unit is designed for, in those cases we can call the manufacturer and talk to applications and they can punch it into a problem and tell us if it is acceptable and how much efficiency and capacity loss we will see.



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[LS6 Tommy]

We flush linesets pretty regular, it takes about a half of a large can of flush to do a normal lineset, a long large one might use a whole can, we pay around 100$ for a large can of RX-11 flush. I have sat through several different manufacturers training and they have all recognized flushing as an approved method. The refrigerant doesn't matter, it's the oil that is the problem.

It does take some time to flush, we prefer to replace but it's often not practical.

Sizing is another matter, there are times that you have an existing lineset that is a different size then the new unit is designed for, in those cases we can call the manufacturer and talk to applications and they can punch it into a problem and tell us if it is acceptable and how much efficiency and capacity loss we will see.



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Good info, thanks! Most of the manufacturer's I deal with almost always lean towards replacement, particularly if you cannot identify the solder that was used.

I also need to apologize for some of my previous statments as I pretty much said you must braze 410a. I was remiss by not saying that many manufacturers allow the use of silver solder.

Tommy

 

[Worsedog]

My 1979 unit died in 2004 when a hose blew out. It was a 6 seer unit. I replaced it with a 13 seer unit, new furnace and new ducting. It paid for itself in about 10 years. Since then the cost is negative. I make money by keeping it. If you have a low seer unit you are throwing money away every time you use it. If you have a seer from 11 up then it is probably a wash cost wise to replace it. The savings vs cost can take 20 years to pay for itself. It is like solar - the cost to add it here is about a 20 - 25 year payback. Friends who bought solar got about 10-12 years between total failures where parts weren't available to fix it so they had to replace all of it. One has to run the math on cost before making claims they will save or lose money by upgrading.

Any discussion of the efficiency of it is a wild *** guess. However, I do know that my house is always comfortable and my power bill averaged $194 over the last year. Based on the few no a/c months and the a/c months the difference is $65-70. How long would it take to pay off a complete reinstall as I've seen the hack job done all the way through on mine?

For me, I still feel run it till dies is the answer.

 

[JRonchetto]

I vote for waiting. I am in a similar situation. My single unit A/C and furnace is also 20 years old. When it has problems next time, I'll get it replaced. My estimate last year was about $7k. I have never had furnace problems, but the A/C has caused problems 3 times in the last 10 years, with repair costs of about $300 each time. That old R22 is ridiculously expensive these days!

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Another vote for letting it die. I have two systems and both are fairly new so in the unlikely event that one craps out, I'll still have some level of comfort on one floor. Having three systems puts you with that much more redundancy. Some of the super high efficiency systems can be a case study in diminishing returns as you're not only paying more, many times your also getting something more complicated which introduces a greater number of failure points. Despite my systems being less than two years old, both NG furnaces are only 80% which doesn't bother me too much as it doesn't get very cold here and not for very long. My parents have two systems and they're both heat pumps with emergency electric heat, they're both only four years old and have both had issues, minor but without a warranty they still would have both been >$400 total. One was a block condensate drain that created a back up to a float switch and shut the whole thing down, the other had a failed stepper motor controlling the expansion valve.

 

[Notgrownup]

Difference is having two other units to help cool or heat... When you only have 1 it’s a different story, if it drops dead and it’s a 20 year old unit, the parts to repair it might be scarce....This is why I. Am being proactive a bit...

 

[bulletpruf]

More news.

We got a service contract for the HVAC stuff. Reasonable charge for someone to come out a few times per year to check and service units. In my opinion, it's really just an excuse for the HVAC company to get into your house and tell you that your HVAC units are all about to blow up so they can get the contract to replace them.

And that's what happened today. The CFO called a few minutes ago, the HVAC guy is there talking doom and destruction, and coming up with an estimate for the repairs.

The stated issues - one of the furnaces doesn't work. Not a surprise; that was on the home inspection. Figure it needs to be replaced.

One AC unit has a full pan of water underneath and it's about to overflow. It doesn't have an emergency switch on it. I'm clueless on this stuff, so why would a pan be full? I thought this all drained outside. Is this just as simple as me going up there to figure out how to clean the drain?

Thanks,

Scott

 

[Notgrownup]

You pan drain is clogged... needs blowing out and then put a AC drain tablet in it to prevent mucky water.
They do make it sound like it's gonna blow captain.... Damnit Jim...

 

[acmikee]

they didn't blow out the drain as part of the maintenance? call the service manager and then fire them

 

[bulletpruf]

they didn't blow out the drain as part of the maintenance? call the service manager and then fire them

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

They just want your money, they don't want to do any of the actual maintenance work apparently.

 

[danski0224]

The secondary drain pan typically is not used to collect condensate to be drained. I have heard of the evaporator drain line being dumped into the secondary pan, and then the drain from the pan being run to a drain. This is the stupid way of doing it. The drain line in this installation will clog, mainly due to airborne insulation particles.

There should be a device in the secondary drain pan that shuts off the equipment when water is detected. The device can have a float switch or an electronic sensor.

The usual reason for water in a drain pan under the equipment is because the coil is freezing up.

As far as blowing out the drain line goes... be careful. It is common for the connections to be press fit together without using PVC cement. Don't know why idiots do this, but it happens. If the drain line is buried in a wall, you may get a surprise.

And yes, the maintenance contract doesn't ensure that maintenance gets performed. However, those maintenance contract sales mean steady revenue back to the company.

 

[jjrbus]

Another vote for letting it die. I have two systems and both are fairly new so in the unlikely event that one craps out, I'll still have some level of comfort on one floor. Having three systems puts you with that much more redundancy. Some of the super high efficiency systems can be a case study in diminishing returns as you're not only paying more, many times your also getting something more complicated which introduces a greater number of failure points. Despite my systems being less than two years old, both NG furnaces are only 80% which doesn't bother me too much as it doesn't get very cold here and not for very long. My parents have two systems and they're both heat pumps with emergency electric heat, they're both only four years old and have both had issues, minor but without a warranty they still would have both been >$400 total. One was a block condensate drain that created a back up to a float switch and shut the whole thing down, the other had a failed stepper motor controlling the expansion valve.

YUP! My first Hi tech, golly gosh gee whiz gas furnace, right out of warranty and the circuit board goes out. Wiped out about 4 years of gas savings to replace it. And then went out again 2 years later! And of course it goes out on the weekend during a cold front coming through!

 

[bulletpruf]

They just want your money, they don't want to do any of the actual maintenance work apparently.

That's what I'm worried about.

The secondary drain pan typically is not used to collect condensate to be drained. I have heard of the evaporator drain line being dumped into the secondary pan, and then the drain from the pan being run to a drain. This is the stupid way of doing it. The drain line in this installation will clog, mainly due to airborne insulation particles.

There should be a device in the secondary drain pan that shuts off the equipment when water is detected. The device can have a float switch or an electronic sensor.

The usual reason for water in a drain pan under the equipment is because the coil is freezing up.

As far as blowing out the drain line goes... be careful. It is common for the connections to be press fit together without using PVC cement. Don't know why idiots do this, but it happens. If the drain line is buried in a wall, you may get a surprise.

And yes, the maintenance contract doesn't ensure that maintenance gets performed. However, those maintenance contract sales mean steady revenue back to the company.

The tech told my wife that there's no switch to turn off the AC when there's water in the pan.

I'm supposed to meet with the tech on Friday morning, so I hope to come away with a good understanding of what the problems are.

YUP! My first Hi tech, golly gosh gee whiz gas furnace, right out of warranty and the circuit board goes out. Wiped out about 4 years of gas savings to replace it. And then went out again 2 years later! And of course it goes out on the weekend during a cold front coming through!

That's one of the things that I'm worried about -- if I replace a unit that's currently working, but old, there's no guarantee that the new unit will be trouble free...

Thanks for all the input.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

The secondary drain pan typically is not used to collect condensate to be drained. I have heard of the evaporator drain line being dumped into the secondary pan, and then the drain from the pan being run to a drain. This is the stupid way of doing it. The drain line in this installation will clog, mainly due to airborne insulation particles.

There should be a device in the secondary drain pan that shuts off the equipment when water is detected. The device can have a float switch or an electronic sensor.

The usual reason for water in a drain pan under the equipment is because the coil is freezing up.

As far as blowing out the drain line goes... be careful. It is common for the connections to be press fit together without using PVC cement. Don't know why idiots do this, but it happens. If the drain line is buried in a wall, you may get a surprise.

And yes, the maintenance contract doesn't ensure that maintenance gets performed. However, those maintenance contract sales mean steady revenue back to the company.

X2. My experience is when a secondary pan has water in it's from the primary drain being blocked.
The secondary pan should have it's own separate drain that exits the house out over a window or someplace else where dripping water will be noticed. The primary drain can go to a drain, the ground or the gutter.

There are traps with built in float switches.

Tommy

 

[danski0224]

The tech told my wife that there's no switch to turn off the AC when there's water in the pan.

I'm supposed to meet with the tech on Friday morning, so I hope to come away with a good understanding of what the problems are.

Unless I am mistaken, the lack of an equipment safety shutoff device in a secondary drain pan above a finished occupied space is not in compliance with the International Residential Code.

A quality installation will have a safety shutoff switch located where it will function, and wired in to shut down the equipment or make some other alert.

Although the statement is obvious, the safety shutoff switch should be located where it will come in contact with water and actually work. Unless the drain pan is rigid enough to be self supporting (like made out of 16 gauge galvanized steel with welded corners), or supported enough to be rigid, the water will collect somewhere other than where the safety switch is located... Murphy's law. The pan should also have break lines to direct water to the drain location, if a drain spud from the drain pan is installed.

The electronic shutoffs that look like hockey pucks are nice because they can be daisy chained. There are other variations that look like rope and can be molded to fit a shape, and sense water at any point along the length.

 

[danski0224]

That's one of the things that I'm worried about -- if I replace a unit that's currently working, but old, there's no guarantee that the new unit will be trouble free...

Generally speaking, new HVAC stuff is vigorously tested and is typically trouble free. Many different consumer level name brands are either held by a larger corporation or use the same internal parts or both.

Repeated circuit board failures in a furnace is indicative of another problem, not a bad circuit board. Power surges is one, and there are low cost surge protectors available just for HVAC equipment.

Repeated compressor failures in a air conditioner is indicative of a bad installation foremost, improper charging, improper airflow and poor replacement compressor installation. Contrary to popular belief, the new compressor is NOT a filter.

Yes, stuff fails. Failure due to ****** manufacturing isn't typically the case. Poor design and execution, sure. QC failure from a OEM supplier, sure.

But most of the time, it is directly related to a ****** install, ****** operating conditions or both... then poor or no maintenance.

 

[yeldogt]

The secondary pan -- is just what it sounds like. An extra pan under the furnace to collect anything that drips or overflows. As humid air flows over the cold coils -- you get a lot of moisture .. this should all flow out the main drain of the evaporator. If the unit is in an unconditioned space there can be situations where water can condense on the cabinet .. this will drip into/onto the secondary pan. Years ago both the evaporator and the pan got piped together and out to daylight. The shutoff was not required years ago.

If the secondary pan is filling up -- it's a good bet the drain is clogged.. this will cause the evaporator to backup ... overflowing into the pan. The evaporator can rust and start to drip -- but, this will not cause the pan drain to clog.

Get them to clean the drain ...

What's wrong with the furnace ? With your location -- is it an 80%?

As I said in an earlier thread ... review all with caution. With the size house and number of units ... a proper load needs to be done. IMO -- its always best to live in a house for a while and then you can evaluate the current equipment. Most systems are way to big and most ductwork too small .. understand the current system allows for some understand of what is really needed. All too often -- companies come in and simply match the bad equipment that there.

With todays equipment -- humidity levels can be managed w/o overcooling .. zoning really works. It may add 5k to the cost -- but, you will have a more comfortable house. Even doing one of the systems w/ VS can make a huge difference