Replaced my Garage bulbs with LED

[PoorUB]

I was seriously thinking of replacing the lighting in my garage, but decided I might not be living here in a couple years so $1,000 plus on lighting doesn't make sense.
i also consider just buying more T12 bulbs, but I needed three ballasts and by the time I went that way it didn't hurt too bad to just go LED.

I ended up buying Halco LED ballast bypass bulbs from Home Depot. I have twenty two, two bulb four foot fixtures so I bought 40 bulbs today and went to it. I have one fixture left with florescent bulbs and will probably buy ten more bulbs, (they come in a ten pack) and replace those two and we also have a couple fixtures in the laundry room I can switch out too.
All I know it I like the lighting in my shop again!

 

[The Cobbler]

nice . I recently had ( and helped) a warehouse for a charitable group I'm involved with changed to LED bypass tubes . good riddance Fluorescent !

 

[nadogail]

The only things keeping Fluorescent lights in my hobby shop garage is the half box of replacement tubes I have had for years and the fact that my Solar Panels make so much free electricity,

 

[alfazer]

I replaced a double tube for LED tubes and it gives me a strobe effect when I watch my lathe chuck spinning. It never looks like it's stopped spinning but it definitly looks slower and weird depending on the speed. Not good.
If you have machines with spindles, just be careful what you choose.

 

[PoorUB]

I replaced a double tube for LED tubes and it gives me a strobe effect when I watch my lathe chuck spinning. It never looks like it's stopped spinning but it definitly looks slower and weird depending on the speed. Not good.
If you have machines with spindles, just be careful what you choose.

That is easily cured with a incandescent or florescent work light mounted for that machine.

 

[alfazer]

That is easily cured with a incandescent or florescent work light mounted for that machine.

Yes I use a good magbase machine light but the LED is direct overhead and wired with the rest of the lights so I'm going to swap that one back to floresecent. More of a warning to others who might not know.

 

[D45]

I replaced 8 tube fixtures in my garage a few years ago

They fired slow in the cold and hummed loudly

I went with 4' dual row LED fixtures and love it. Instant on and quiet......not to mention great lighting and cost effective to buy

 

[cybrdyke]

I replaced a double tube for LED tubes and it gives me a strobe effect when I watch my lathe chuck spinning. It never looks like it's stopped spinning but it definitly looks slower and weird depending on the speed. Not good.
If you have machines with spindles, just be careful what you choose.

This is referred to as "non-visual flicker", and it's extremely common. It can be harmful in many ways. You are describing one of them. Imagine a light that flickers so fast that you cant even notice it, but it's synced with the spinning jaws of the lathe, or saw blade or any other machine that can rip your fingers off. The machine "looks" like it's not running, but it is. It's a very dangerous issue. Its similar to the effect you saw on older TV shows where the tires on the cars are spinning backwards.
Other issues with non-visual flicker are eye strain, migraine headaches, and seizures in those that are sensitive to it. Autistic folks can also have very adverse reactions.
This is just another reason why the pros on this forum usually warn against buying the cheap **** on Amazon and eBay and to stick with better quality brands.
Thanks for warning people, Alfazer! Good post!
CD

 

[buddha2364]

There are options to convert your old flourescant to LED's with drivers, you simply reuse you existing reflectors. Bypass the ballests, add wire these guys in and your good to go.

 

[rawen2]

I replaced a double tube for LED tubes and it gives me a strobe effect when I watch my lathe chuck spinning. It never looks like it's stopped spinning but it definitly looks slower and weird depending on the speed. Not good.
If you have machines with spindles, just be careful what you choose.

Or you could just change your garage into a Disco. Does this post make my age look big?

Seriously, thanks for the heads up. Never thought about that happening. I replaced all the screw-in light bulbs in my garage with LED's and haven't seen that effect on the lathe but maybe I just haven't run it at a speed where it would be noticeable.

 

[Knight511]

Or you could just change your garage into a Disco. Does this post make my age look big?

Seriously, thanks for the heads up. Never thought about that happening. I replaced all the screw-in light bulbs in my garage with LED's and haven't seen that effect on the lathe but maybe I just haven't run it at a speed where it would be noticeable.

Whether or not they flicker is dependent on the type of power delivery the bulb uses.

SEE INNOVATE1's POST BELOW (this statement is not entirely accurate): If the LED uses a driver, AC is converted to DC, there will be no flicker because there is no variation of power delivery. If the LED is controlled via PWM (pulse width modulation), there is a flicker that is very fast and only impacts objects moving at certain speed. The type of power delivery used is dependent upon the manufacturer not the price of the equipment. You will have to dig into spec info from any manufacturer to find which method of power control they use.

 

[Innovate1]

Whether or not they flicker is dependent on the type of power delivery the bulb uses. If the LED uses a driver, AC is converted to DC, there will be no flicker because there is no variation of power delivery. If the LED is controlled via PWM (pulse width modulation), there is a flicker that is very fast and only impacts objects moving at certain speed. The type of power delivery used is dependent upon the manufacturer not the price of the equipment. You will have to dig into spec info from any manufacturer to find which method of power control they use.

Your first statement is true but then it gets much more murky. I think you will find that LED bulbs that don't have some flicker when powered by AC are very rare to non-existent. The AC is converted to pulsating DC not pure DC. All LED bulbs must use some sort of driver circuit so saying if it has a driver it has no flicker (again considering only AC supply voltage) is just not true. PWM? Depends on how the PWM is done. Most (all?) LED tubes have some flicker at 120 Hz (twice line frequency). To eliminate it would require energy storage to supply energy when the input voltage goes to zero at each zero crossing so would be added cost.

This article goes into some detail and points out that florescent also have some flicker but less.

https://www.edn.com/why-does-flicker-matter/

Aside from the dangers from the illusion that moving parts are stationary they go into more subtle health effects.

 

[Lassen Forge]

I replaced the fluorescent T-12's with T-8s, then T-5's, and finally LEDs... I don't ever see going back to Fluorescents. Way better light, WAY the hell cheaper (by an order of magnitudes), and none of the pre-burnout flicker and dim issues. Plus it can be 0 degrees out and they still work. Can't say that about the old bulbs...

 

[Knight511]

Your first statement is true but then it gets much more murky. I think you will find that LED bulbs that don't have some flicker when powered by AC are very rare to non-existent. The AC is converted to pulsating DC not pure DC. All LED bulbs must use some sort of driver circuit so saying if it has a driver it has no flicker (again considering only AC supply voltage) is just not true. PWM? Depends on how the PWM is done. Most (all?) LED tubes have some flicker at 120 Hz (twice line frequency). To eliminate it would require energy storage to supply energy when the input voltage goes to zero at each zero crossing so would be added cost.

This article goes into some detail and points out that florescent also have some flicker but less.

https://www.edn.com/why-does-flicker-matter/

Aside from the dangers from the illusion that moving parts are stationary they go into more subtle health effects.

True and thank you. In my mind I was thinking about the drivers tat I use when I build my LED lights for riding, but those do, as you said, use pure DC power.

Two questions:

How does one "test" for flicker reliably? As simple as shooting video at different frame rates (multiples of 30 for 60hz power; 30 being "normal" for older video types) or something else? I know cinematic video shoots at 24fps to counter the flicker.

In a shop environment, would the flicker be reduced or made worse by using lighting circuits on separate "poles" of the AC power supply?

 

[Bert_]

I replaced the fluorescent T-12's with T-8s, then T-5's, and finally LEDs... I don't ever see going back to Fluorescents. Way better light, WAY the hell cheaper (by an order of magnitudes), and none of the pre-burnout flicker and dim issues. Plus it can be 0 degrees out and they still work. Can't say that about the old bulbs...

Like anything there are good products and bad ones. There has always been high and low quality fluorescent and there is high and low quality led. The stuff built to the lowest price is never very good no matter what technology.

I still have lots of T12 lighting. Honestly it all works really good and the only thing I would gain by changing is the energy use.

 

[Innovate1]

True and thank you. In my mind I was thinking about the drivers tat I use when I build my LED lights for riding, but those do, as you said, use pure DC power.

Two questions:

How does one "test" for flicker reliably? As simple as shooting video at different frame rates (multiples of 30 for 60hz power; 30 being "normal" for older video types) or something else? I know cinematic video shoots at 24fps to counter the flicker.

In a shop environment, would the flicker be reduced or made worse by using lighting circuits on separate "poles" of the AC power supply?

I suppose you could use a phototransistor or some similar sensor and an oscilloscope to get an idea of the variation but there is probably expensive equipment that meets some international industry standard for such a test. If the flicker is enough you might see it by varying the speed of rotating equipment and see if you get a strobe effect. If you had 3 phase power you could wire lights on each phase so the flicker was out of phase and largely cancels. But with single phase residential power even if on separate "phases" they are 180 degrees out of phase and the peaks occur at the same time so that won't help.

 

[cybrdyke]

How does one "test" for flicker reliably? As simple as shooting video at different frame rates (multiples of 30 for 60hz power; 30 being "normal" for older video types) or something else? I know cinematic video shoots at 24fps to counter the flicker.

In a shop environment, would the flicker be reduced or made worse by using lighting circuits on separate "poles" of the AC power supply?

There are handheld flicker meters and bench test equipment for that. There are also phone apps, but those are pretty sketchy. The flicker in LED lighting can reach up to 40KHz, so you wont catch most of it on camera. However, an example that's interesting is with alot of sports stadiums that have converted their lighting to LED. These venues also have had to be wary of flicker when televising games, especially with the newer HD cameras.
Ultimately, the flicker rate and amplitude isn't very important, so measuring it is mostly folly. There's not alot you can do with the information that the flicker meters show you. What's important is that we understand the hazards that flicker can create and what we can do to prevent them.
Many industry groups, like IEEE and UL either have already created or are working on setting standards for flicker. Manufacturers are working with them on this as well. Most mainstream LED products already meet the IEEE guidelines. The cheap **** from Amazon doesn't. For the most part, the cause of the flicker is attributed to electrical eddy currents in cheaply or poorly designed drivers. For example, when you find a $59 150w UFO highbay on Amazon, it will have one of those cheap drivers. Same with the $12 shop lights and the 10 for $50 LED strip lights. All of them are garbage.
CD

 

[Knight511]

There are handheld flicker meters and bench test equipment for that. There are also phone apps, but those are pretty sketchy. The flicker in LED lighting can reach up to 40KHz, so you wont catch most of it on camera. However, an example that's interesting is with alot of sports stadiums that have converted their lighting to LED. These venues also have had to be wary of flicker when televising games, especially with the newer HD cameras.
Ultimately, the flicker rate and amplitude isn't very important, so measuring it is mostly folly. There's not alot you can do with the information that the flicker meters show you. What's important is that we understand the hazards that flicker can create and what we can do to prevent them.
Many industry groups, like IEEE and UL either have already created or are working on setting standards for flicker. Manufacturers are working with them on this as well. Most mainstream LED products already meet the IEEE guidelines. The cheap **** from Amazon doesn't. For the most part, the cause of the flicker is attributed to electrical eddy currents in cheaply or poorly designed drivers. For example, when you find a $59 150w UFO highbay on Amazon, it will have one of those cheap drivers. Same with the $12 shop lights and the 10 for $50 LED strip lights. All of them are garbage.
CD

So essentially I will find out if it is bad in my shop if (since I don't have a lathe) the blade on one of my saws "slows" down in the light.

Also, until there is a certification, it sounds like it is kind of a ****-shoot for affordable lighting (even the highly praised stickied thread) unless there is a claim by the mfg for controlling the flicker which cannot be tested by the end user. Doesn't sound hopeful at all and just means the user has to be aware of the tools being used. I imagine for most users, it really won't be a problem unless they are using high speed equipment unless they are sensitive to the flicker medically.

In summary, I should not grab the blade of my table saw unless I am ready to replace the brake cartridge for now.

 

[couch67]

Installed 4 of the LED bypass tubes in the laundry room last year - instant (almost) on, and no more flicker!

 

[Mr_fixit]

I replaced the fluorescent T-12's with T-8s, then T-5's, and finally LEDs... I don't ever see going back to Fluorescents. Way better light, WAY the hell cheaper (by an order of magnitudes), and none of the pre-burnout flicker and dim issues. Plus it can be 0 degrees out and they still work. Can't say that about the old bulbs...

I replaced t12's with t-8's, when I was installing the new fixtures, maybe 20 years ago. Now I can buy t-8 bulbs for .50 to a dollar, cause everyone wants leds. Not sure what you're paying for leds, but for me they're more expensive than $1.00. T-8's electronic ballasts start at 0 degrees, that's the reason why I switched from t-12's. At the time I bought 13 cases of t-8 electronic ballasts for $20 a case and still have a bunch left. What am I missing?

 

[Bert_]

I've got T12's that fire right up at zero, HO's do it at full brightness. Only bad thing about them is that it's 110 watts per lamp.

 

[cybrdyke]

I replaced t12's with t-8's, when I was installing the new fixtures, maybe 20 years ago. Now I can buy t-8 bulbs for .50 to a dollar, cause everyone wants leds. Not sure what you're paying for leds, but for me they're more expensive than $1.00. T-8's electronic ballasts start at 0 degrees, that's the reason why I switched from t-12's. At the time I bought 13 cases of t-8 electronic ballasts for $20 a case and still have a bunch left. What am I missing?

It all depends on how many hours you burn your lights. LED will cost you half as much on your energy bill. So, if you only have the lights on for a few hundred hours per year, you're way ahead with what you have. But, if you have them on a couple thousand hours per year, it would be cheaper to throw all your stuff away and go with LED.