Replaced Torsion Springs - Cables Keep Unwinding

[VinnieZ85]

Hi - I am at a loss and really hoping someone can point out what we might be doing wrong. One of my torsion springs broke and I am trying to replace them.

I have everything up exactly how the original was but everytime we open it up past a certain point, the cables become unwound.

I have a LHR garage door track which I know means to install everything in reverse.

I've been trying to solve this for the last few days so if someone can give me guidance, I would be very appreciative. Thank you!

Here are some pictures.

 

[VinnieZ85]

Just to add a few other points - we wound it down and did several different tensions: tried 32 turns each side and then reduced it down to around 18 each side.

These are the springs I purchased: KaiMinDogz Pair of 2" Garage Door Torsion Springs Set with Non-Slip Winding Bar & Gloves,High Precision Electrophoresis Black Coated, for Replacement & Installation, MIN 16,000 Cycles (0.250x2''x28'')

I measured the length of 10 coils and 20 coils to determine the replacement size and also read the numbers off of the old ones.

Thank you!

 

[PassnThru]

I don't understand why you have a LHR door - does the ceiling drop down further back? You have plenty of room where the door is mounted for a standard track. I also don't understand the 'install everything in reverse part'? You have a little extra track and the spools are located on the outside but that's all the difference I can see - everything pretty much works the same.
Open the door slowly and watch the wire on the spool and you should be able to determine why it's unwinding. Specifically check to see if the spool stops winding at that point.

 

[Jeff Ivers]

In pictures 3 and 4, the left hand spring appears to be in tension (wound up) and the right one does not appear to be in tension. When the door is down, both springs should be tensioned the same amount. The springs are handed, I believe. In other words, the springs are normally sold in pairs with one designated as left and one as right. Any chance you have the wrong spring?

 

[VinnieZ85]

I don't understand why you have a LHR door - does the ceiling drop down further back? You have plenty of room where the door is mounted for a standard track. I also don't understand the 'install everything in reverse part'? You have a little extra track and the spools are located on the outside but that's all the difference I can see - everything pretty much works the same.
Open the door slowly and watch the wire on the spool and you should be able to determine why it's unwinding. Specifically check to see if the spool stops winding at that point.

I'm not exactly sure why I have a LHR garage door. It seems like there is plenty of room to accommodate it.

And the spools wind up on the outside instead of the inside. For that reason, I believe it needs to be reversed. At least everything I have read seems to indicate that. I believe that means I need to wind down so that the tension turns the spools clockwise to offset weight of door.

 

[VinnieZ85]

In pictures 3 and 4, the left hand spring appears to be in tension (wound up) and the right one does not appear to be in tension. When the door is down, both springs should be tensioned the same amount. The springs are handed, I believe. In other words, the springs are normally sold in pairs with one designated as left and one as right. Any chance you have the wrong spring?

I think that it just looks like that in the picture. Both are wound up evenly.

I'm throwing my hands up - so it is possible I have them reversed, but I matched up the wind on the previous ones to the way they are now. Everything I read online also supported this - having to reverse the springs.

 

[PassnThru]

I don't know what you've done - but at the end of the day if the door raises some and then the cables get loose then there is no longer any rotation on the bar. That can happen for various reasons - one is that the bar is getting in a bind or the cables are and that's hanging it up. That should be easily determined by watching everything as you open the door. Another reason would be that the springs were wound incorrectly and they are basically bottoming out on tension at that point.
I can sort of see why you reversed the normal position of the spools - so they would be at extension closest to the door. But the springs shouldn't be reversed. They should twist the bar just like any other installation.
When you tensioned the springs - did you tension them in the same direction? Were you tightening both of them with the door down by pushing up on the winding bar? Or did you tighten them in opposite directions?

 

[VinnieZ85]

I don't know what you've done - but at the end of the day if the door raises some and then the cables get loose then there is no longer any rotation on the bar. That can happen for various reasons - one is that the bar is getting in a bind or the cables are and that's hanging it up. That should be easily determined by watching everything as you open the door. Another reason would be that the springs were wound incorrectly and they are basically bottoming out on tension at that point.
I can sort of see why you reversed the normal position of the spools - so they would be at extension closest to the door. But the springs shouldn't be reversed. They should twist the bar just like any other installation.
When you tensioned the springs - did you tension them in the same direction? Were you tightening both of them with the door down by pushing up on the winding bar? Or did you tighten them in opposite directions?

I tensioned the springs the same direction - winding down.

 

[Jeff Ivers]

I tensioned the springs the same direction - winding down.

I think that is your problem. If you wound the springs down with the door in the closed position, would not raising the door continue to wind the springs in the direction you already wound them? Aren't the springs supposed to unwind as you raise the door?

 

[VinnieZ85]

I think that is your problem. If you wound the springs down with the door in the closed position, would not raising the door continue to wind the springs in the direction you already wound them? Aren't the springs supposed to unwind as you raise the door?

Winding down would mean the bar would spin clockwise. Because this is a low head room setup, the drums are reversed and the cable is on the outside so clockwise would pull the garage door up.

 

[TheGreek]

I replaced my springs a few weeks ago. You can’t wind them the wrong way bc you need the cable tension to wind against. What it sounds like to me is insufficient number of spring turns so when the opener gets to the top it’s unloading the spring.

If you disengage the opener and open the door manually how does it work? It should stay closed at the bottom, be relatively easy to open by hand and stay open at the top with spring tension the entire way.

 

[Jeff Ivers]

Winding down would mean the bar would spin clockwise. Because this is a low head room setup, the drums are reversed and the cable is on the outside so clockwise would pull the garage door up.

With all due respect, the term clockwise is meaningless unless you define which end of the door you are standing on and if looking towards the other end of the door or away from it. I have installed 5 overhead doors as original or replacement installs and remember locking the door in the down position with vise grips and lifting the bars being used to wind the springs. On my doors, the cable winds onto the spools from the side closest to the wall the door is mounted in. I don't understand why drums would be reversed for a low headroom situation.
It may be time to call a pro in and update the group on what he determines the problem is.

 

[Daedalus]

Did you mess with the cable drums at all? You have to make sure both cables are wound up the same amount before you even mess with the springs. Lower door, unwind both springs, and unlock all drums. Lock the position of the bar (vise grips wedged or clamped), coil the cable around each cable drum until the cable is just taut, then lock the drum. THEN you can start futzing with the springs.

Before you start using the opener, roll the door up manually. It should be 1/2 way up just with the springs. Any higher, and the springs are too tight. Any lower, and the springs are too loose. Continue to push the door up slowly, keeping an eye on the cables as you reach the top of the travel. Watch for either cable going slack...that might be the problem here, as both cables need to be taut at all times. The springs need to have a little torsion on them even in the door fully open position. If not, you need to put a bit more twist on them. If you need to add a lot of twist, and the door goes much beyond 1/2 way open on its own, then you might have the wrong springs to begin with.

It's also possible the door isn't rolling up square for some reason, like the tracks aren't perpendicular to the floor. But this seems unlikely, since it worked before.

 

[Worsedog]

I don't understand why you have a LHR door - does the ceiling drop down further back? You have plenty of room where the door is mounted for a standard track. I also don't understand the 'install everything in reverse part'? You have a little extra track and the spools are located on the outside but that's all the difference I can see - everything pretty much works the same.
Open the door slowly and watch the wire on the spool and you should be able to determine why it's unwinding. Specifically check to see if the spool stops winding at that point.

Not that it matters, as that's what he has, the sixth picture shows why.

 

[Viper98912]

I'm not an expert nor installer, but I'm going to also say that you don't have enough turns on the spring to keep tension on the rod when you get to a certain point, hence why they unwind. If you are able to have the door stay up on it's own when it's 1/4-1/2 way up (so you have the right amount of tension on the spring), then there's a possibility you have the wrong springs (wire too thick or stiff) because you're not able to put more turns on the spring. If you give your current springs more turns (to stop the unwind at the top) and they pull up your door when it's closed, then you can confirm that the springs are not the right rating.

 

[Fav Onefour]

32 turns on a 7' door? With proper springs that door would be doing moon shots. Even 18 seems like a high count. Are you talking 1/4 turns? If it's quarter turns, the tension is too low.

 

[mm08822]

I have similar doors but only single torsion spring (right hand side).

Back off each spring until zero torsion.
Draw a line with chalk on each spring from end-end so the line can be seen from floor.

Loosen the spring retainer bolts attaching the spring end to the shaft for each spring.
Using 2 winding bars, rotate the spring end down to torsion the spring. (Proper direction would be tensioning the cable on the drum.)
Stop once you have 28 quarter turns. The chalk line should show 7 wraps. 28 assumes you have a 7' high door. 1 rev of the drum = 1'.
Tighten the 2 spring retainer bolts attaching the spring end to the shaft.

Do the same for the other spring.

With the opener disengaged, the door should open very easily by hand.
As you get to the top of the travel, slow down and verify the spring is still torsioned keeping tension on the cable wrapping the drum.

If it is not keeping tension, lower the door and add another 1/4 turn (29th) to each spring.

 

[firebirdparts]

Hi - I am at a loss and really hoping someone can point out what we might be doing wrong.

It's real simple - if the cables are loose a some point in door travel, then your springs are too stiff (too short). Now you did not say they were loose, you said they "unwound" and so I am already having to make things up. The springs need to keep winding at all times, and you should be able to see that is the case.

Now, I'm lazy, so I would wind the springs until this doesn't happen, and then I would use judgement to decide whether I could live with it. You can easily figure out how much extra to wind by looking at where they get loose and how far you need to go above that point.

The above (by mm08....) is also perfectly logical. You wind it just enough based on geometry to stay tight and then see if you can live with it.

If you can't live with it, then you need "softer" springs.

 

[VinnieZ85]

Thanks for all the replies thus far. I am doing 32 quarter turns - not full turns.

When I had it at 32 and then removed my vice grips, the door would shoot up on its own which made me think that it was too tight.

 

[duneslider]

This is sounding to me like the springs are too strong for your door. Unless the 32 turns is too much, what does it do at 28-29 turns like suggested above?

 

[mm08822]

Thanks for all the replies thus far. I am doing 32 quarter turns - not full turns.

When I had it at 32 and then removed my vice grips, the door would shoot up on its own which made me think that it was too tight.

32 1/4-turns would be for 8' of door travel. = Too much for 7' high door.

Spring length affects spring life - longer = less stress on coils.
Spring wire diameter relates to lifting force (torsion).

The door should be balanced with proper spring tension. It doesn't move but takes barely any lifting force to open. This assists the door opener to raise and lower it.

• The 2 cables under tension plus the opener (minimal) force applied causes the door to lift.
• The 2 cables under tension minus the opener (minimal) force removed causes the door to lower.

 

[Plastikosmd]

I don’t think there would be math, I’m out

 

[VinnieZ85]

Here's an update for everyone. I was debating calling a professional but I decided to take one more look at it with my dad.

After thinking through every possibility, we looked at the springs again and I think I got the wrong ones. I measure the originals quite liberally and got 0.250x2x28 springs. My measurements were off and I should have got 0.218x2x24. I thought I got the wire size and diameter right and didn't think the length being longer really mattered and would only extend the life of spring.

I was googling and came across another post on this site that made me realize that the replacement springs were wrong: Post in thread 'Replace Torsion Springs with slightly higher lift rating?'

Specially this part: "They're pretty finicky and do need to be closely matched to the door weight and height. A heavier wire gauge and overall longer spring is typically the answer for "extended life" springs. I've tried to do that same thing a couple times with mixed results. Simply backing off a bit on the winding doesn't significantly change the strength of the spring, and you can only adjust that so far, then the cables will begin to get slack before the door gets fully open. Your best bet is to just order the right springs."

So I'm a little embarrassed and a little mad at myself for all this but at least I learned a lesson and now know way more about garage doors than that I ever expected. The correct springs are being delivered tonight so I'll try to update after I get them up.

Thank you to everyone to took any time out of their day to reply back to me - I really appreciate it.

 

[VinnieZ85]

This is sounding to me like the springs are too strong for your door. Unless the 32 turns is too much, what does it do at 28-29 turns like suggested above?

You nailed it! I just posted an update but I had purchased the wrong springs.

 

[Fav Onefour]

Thanks for the update.
I was under the impression that you had the same spec spring.
Finicky is a polite way of saying it's a pain trying to make an off size work. Correct springs for height is basically non negotiable.

Sounds like you've got a handle on the fix.

Just a heads up on spring installation for anyone doing this at home.
When you install the new set, do the tensioning with the door down. There really aren't shortcuts to the process. I've seen springs all bunched up on doors that were dang near impossible to completely close. Went to adjust and the spring slid out a couple inches. I have no idea how they even tensioned the the springs with the door up, but the springs didn't work.
Another tip. Leave vise grip about 1/2" above roller when you clamp the rail. If the door lifts when you remove the tension rods? . . . Well, you know the drill. Get back up on your ladder.

 

[DGersic]

When you install the new set, do the tensioning with the door down. There really aren't shortcuts to the process. I've seen springs all bunched up on doors that were dang near impossible to completely close. Went to adjust and the spring slid out a couple inches. I have no idea how they even tensioned the the springs with the door up, but the springs didn't work.

I guess nothing is impossible for the sufficiently motivated and clueless, but I really can’t envision any way to tension the springs with the door up. How would someone even get up there to get the rods in?

 

[VinnieZ85]

Just wanted to give everyone another update - new springs arrived tonight. Luckily my dad was able to come over again and the garage is working again. 30 1/4-turns on each was pretty spot on.

Thanks again to everyone who weighed in on this!

 

[jstroede]

Glad you got it worked out. 30 quarter turns should be just right for a properly sprung 7' door.