replacement 24v battery pack

[toplessHO]

Warn pullzall
I think the OEMs were NiCad. OEM is around $150 ea.
anyway I have 1 thats shot and the other is weak.
Took it to the local Interstate battery for a rebuild quote.
$100 and replacement batteries(sub C cell) were lower mAh (OEM is 2500).
I looked at buying the Sub Cs myself and building a pack.About $80 for 3000mAh.
Ive seen Kobalt 24V L Ion 4 Ah for about $60 each and same for a matching charger.
Has anyone adapted a L Ion battery to an oddball pack such as this?
Ive used a DeWalt 20V L Ion battery in my 18v tools for about 3 yrs with no ill effects.

 

[5ubtle]

https://power.tenergy.com/tenergy-subc-2200mah-nicd-flat-top-rechargeable-battery/

$1.89 each for 2200mAH. $2.09 each with tabs.

 

[toplessHO]

thanks but why would I want to downgrade size?
If anything go bigger

 

[theoldwizard1]

NiCad batteries are 1.2-1.3V Sub-C was a common size, but is getting scarce.

Lithium-ion (more correctly LiCoO2) are about 3.7V (they will read about 4.1V immediately after charging but that will drop to 3.7V when resting for awhile). LiFePO4 batteries are a nominal 3.2V. LiFePO4 are "safer" but hold less power.

If you switch, you will need a new charger !

Lithium-ion 12V battery packs hold 3 cells, so the actual output voltage is 11.1V. 6 cells would be 22.2V and 7 cells would be 25.9V. If you shop around, can easily find 6 cell packs for RC cars/planes for reasonable prices. 2 packs would be very close, but I would go for 7 cells (called 7S packs). Shop around (eBay), but remember you need a charger and get one that does "battery balancing".

 

[toplessHO]

NiCad batteries are 1.2-1.3V Sub-C was a common size, but is getting scarce.

Lithium-ion (more correctly LiCoO2) are about 3.7V (they will read about 4.1V immediately after charging but that will drop to 3.7V when resting for awhile). LiFePO4 batteries are a nominal 3.2V. LiFePO4 are "safer" but hold less power.

If you switch, you will need a new charger !

Lithium-ion 12V battery packs hold 3 cells, so the actual output voltage is 11.1V. 6 cells would be 22.2V and 7 cells would be 25.9V. If you shop around, can easily find 6 cell packs for RC cars/planes for reasonable prices. 2 packs would be very close, but I would go for 7 cells (called 7S packs). Shop around (eBay), but remember you need a charger and get one that does "battery balancing".

So why not use the charger and batteries I mentioned? is a bulk charger and battery packs you mentioned cheaper?Doing the math I can get 2 batteries @4Ah and a charger for just a little more than one replacement OEM battery.

We still have a high end charger for the kids RC stuff but Im sure it wont play well with the lithium s.

 

[dogdog]

For one thing if you do decided to rebuild your self, make sure you source the batteries from a reputable source. I have got burn on the 4000mah ones. That are either defective or fake.
Good thing the RC charger I have measures the capacity.

If it was me I would go lithium ion from a cheaper tool brand. and get a 3D printed adapter for the older tool. .

Charging lithium requires monitoring at each cell/banks. It’s simple to do on a single cell. But once you have more, you’ll need to have a charge controller capable of monitoring different cells. Kobalt for example is 24v but actually inside is 6 cells of 18650 lithium ion batteries in series. But it have a charge controller circuit inside. All you have to do is supply 25.2 volt to it. No more no less . That is how I charge my 1 ah kobalt batteries that used to be cheap at $10 each.

 

[Rabid Badger]

If you can find a good way to mount the Kobalt batteries (good excuse to pick up a 3D printer ) they should work fine.

Just make sure to keep an eye on the battery level so you don't over-discharge the pack.

 

[toplessHO]

the way the Warn battery mounts Im more inclined to dissecting the 24v pack and adapting it to fit inside the OEM case.
Dogdog are you saying the Kobalt has its own BMS?
Do you have pictures of a pack taken apart?

 

[toplessHO]

I took some voltage readings of the Warn battery pack while charging.
Charged pack was unplugged from charger,reconnected and monitored the input voltage to pack while topping off.
Charger was constantly turning output off and sampling vs just a constant voltage supply.
Voltage peaked at 29.5 v for a few seconds then gradually decreased until it was at 28v,
then shutdown with a green light indicated on charger.

 

[toplessHO]

If you can find a good way to mount the Kobalt batteries (good excuse to pick up a 3D printer ) they should work fine.

Just make sure to keep an eye on the battery level so you don't over-discharge the pack.

good thing about this unit is,it has battery voltage lights on top of it, so you see
what battery condition is anytime the switch is turned on. It will flash yellow when battery gets low,as well as having LEDs in green that indicate battery condition.

 

[theoldwizard1]

So why not use the charger and batteries I mentioned?

I missed that ! If the new batteries come with a charger, go for it.

 

[dogdog]

the way the Warn battery mounts Im more inclined to dissecting the 24v pack and adapting it to fit inside the OEM case.
Dogdog are you saying the Kobalt has its own BMS?
Do you have pictures of a pack taken apart?

I will take pic when I get home (working on the garage header replacement atm for my parents)in a day or two. I used the chapin sprayer battery charger to charge the kobalt 1 ah . The charger is noting more than a power supply the output a precise voltage 25.2v I think.controller is inside the battery. Voltage is important.

 

[toplessHO]

at rest the current battery is 25.9
I dont know if the charger maintains it at that or if the state of charge is that.
I ll check in a couple days and see if its dropped. If so the charger only charges,doesnt maintain.I could get an adjustable DC to DC converter and make sure the output of current charger is limited to 25.2VDC if thats the magic number

 

[dogdog]

I will upload the pics tomorrow ... found all the pieces... and open one of those batteries up. Not sure what you are expecting from this.

The charger outputs a constant voltage of 25.2V, I had a sticker there to remind me.. I don't think there is any intelligence on the Chapin charger it self. I can open that up too if you like tomorrow.

25.2 Volt is from 4.2volts per cells needed to charge the Lithium-ion. and there are 6 cells inside these battery packs. The battery them self are actually 3.7 nominal volts x 6 ... so around 22.2V working voltage with no load mine shows 23.9V it's like that for about 2 years with me putting them on a shelve. I don't have the Kobalt charger so, I can't verify for you what it is like... I know the chapin charger won't fit, I have to use two alligator clips to extend between.


From the pic, there seems to be 20 sub-c cells and if you put them in series that would yield 1.2x20=24V.. but the chargers them self have temperature monitoring and voltage / current monitoring.. .so that means they are not exactly just a simple charger. Not sure how that would pan out for you.


Kobalt still sells the 2AH battery packs cheaper, but you can use that to test out before investing on the 4AH.


I don't know your exact situation with that tool but if you can.
There are a lot of 3d printer models on thingiverse for kobalt batteries.... the hardest part I think is just to find the blades.... 3D printed and reuse that shell from the old battery would be the best, then all you have to do is buy an battery charger.

All you really needed in your case is just the receiver... for example this pic.,

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1914299

 

[toplessHO]

thanks DogDog
no need for a pic of the charger
if 25.2 is the magic number thats what I ll go with.
The warn battery pack does have a thermistor for battery temp tapped into the negative side. Im guessing when it changes state due to high heat in pack,it shuts charger down.
I shouldnt really need this as the 24v Kobalt BMS should take care of this.Im still thinking the way to go is to gut the old Warn pack,install new guts from the Kobalt packs and rig up some kind of charger.In this case I can connect directly to the output of pack,as thats how Ive been able to tickle the OEM packs when charger said they were too low.

 

[TuxThePenguin]

Ive used a DeWalt 20V L Ion battery in my 18v tools for about 3 yrs with no ill effects.

DeWalt doesn't have 20V tools. They have "20v max" tools. This is marketing wankery.

The nominal voltage of a lithium ion cell is 3.6v, but when fully charged they can hit 4v or with some, even up to like 4.2v. But they don't stay at that voltage for long. They're typically at around 3.6v or so when "charged" but not tip-top full.

Everyone selling 18v tools is doing 3.6v * 5s (5 batteries in series) = 18v. DeWalt is doing 4v * 5s = "20v" but it's the same thing. DeWalt has claimed this is to differentiate them from the old 18v batteries. In reality, they're using that as an excuse to try to outsell competitors. I've seen people from Europe say that European laws don't let DeWalt sell this **** as 20v over there and they are thus marked 18v. In any case, the 20v stuff IS 18v and thus it'll work with anything that expects 18v as long as it fits.

NiCd is ****. In my opinion (which you may disagree with and if so that's fine), if you really care about a tool lasting, always replace NiCd batteries with Lithium Ion when you can, and as long as your voltage is at least close to divisible by 3.6, then you use however many lithium ion batteries it takes. You might wind up running a slightly lower or slightly higher voltage which is fine. Don't increase voltage significantly or you will overheat / burn your tool up. 7s will give you 25.2v which I think is fine; otherwise you could go for 6s which'll give 21.6v.

Just don't try to charge the lithium ions with the NiCd charger. You can use a generic balance charger.

Lithium ion will give you higher capacity and longer lifespan.

Only convert if you want to use a tool for a lot longer, not "to get a little extra life" out of a cheap tool

 

[toplessHO]

I dont consider a $400 Warn winch to be a cheap tool

 

[toplessHO]

DogDog
Ive found a couple of you tube videos that dissect the battery packs.
The 4Ah one uses 12 cells.
I think to keep the 3 yr warranty intact I ll buy an adapter with leads,gut the old pack ,cut hole in case,mount adapter,wire in to old battery's stablok connector. Then the old battery case will remain attached to the winch. Doing this will only modify the old pack whos batteries are no good,allowing change of the Kobalt batteries when needed.

Now on a quest of finding a well built adapter. All the ones I see on fleabay look like they are made of cheese.

 

[xman_charl]

this utube ...gear show..

excellent videos of rebuild of battery packs for old drills



Charl

 

[dogdog]

DogDog
Ive found a couple of you tube videos that dissect the battery packs.
The 4Ah one uses 12 cells.
I think to keep the 3 yr warranty intact I ll buy an adapter with leads,gut the old pack ,cut hole in case,mount adapter,wire in to old battery's stablok connector. Then the old battery case will remain attached to the winch. Doing this will only modify the old pack whos batteries are no good,allowing change of the Kobalt batteries when needed.

Now on a quest of finding a well built adapter. All the ones I see on fleabay look like they are made of cheese.

Yes There are no 4AH single cells... if it is 4AH... or 5AH then it's 2x of the 2AH or 2x of the 2.5AH in parallel... then six sets of those parallel batteries in series. It is treated as 1 cell to the controller.. I know the craftsman Li-ion 19.2 are also build that way.. no experience with other brands. other than Kobalt.. HF stuff.. The cub Cadet battery that is 5AH I have is a bit different.. these are big pouch batteries probably the same thing 5 cells in series... controller also build in. but the battery is not 18650.



These are the inside of the Chapin and Kobalt 24V batteries... and the charger from the Chapin... when I needed to charge the kobalt, I would use two jumper allegator clips to the Kobalt battery + and -



the other side of the charger look just like any other wall adapter, except it outputs 25.2V consistently.. it has two lights red and green, when no load it is green, when under load it is red. When the battery controller on the battery draw power it is red, when the battery controller cuts off power draw it turns green... that is the behavior of those red/green lights on the wall adapter.

I can't open it, it is welded shut.

The blue battery on top is also li-ion, 11.2V ( 3x3.7V) I charged that with a power supply at 12.6V ( 3x4.2)... Not sure what that battery was used for. some coms equipment I think.

 

[jgromada]

if you really want to buy cheap sub C cells Harbor Freight still sells an inexpensive drill that you can almost get cheaper than the batteries alone. Have you considered that? I rebuilt one of my old NiCd packs that way.

 

[toplessHO]

I think Im going to stick to my first thought of using a 24v Kobalt pack.
Im just waiting for the right "deal" to come along,for charger and batteries
maybe a tool too. I already have DeWalt everything as well as a Ridgid 18v
and a couple old Milwaukees.

 

[dogdog]

you can always build your own, if you know charging the "24V" li-ion pack is 25.2V constant voltage... you can always buy the 6S li-ion charger controller.. and your arrays of 18650 cells in multiple of 6s... just make sure they are the same capacity or early death.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D35PMGN/?tag=atomicindus08-20

or this.. as an example.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07QQT99P8/?tag=atomicindus08-20

hey what do you know... ebikes also have 24V systems a good google point to search for more stuff might be cheaper.

probably not cheaper, but definitely more fun, since you will need a battery tab welder another fun project to build. and some nickle strips.

 

[toplessHO]

Im thinking I ll gut one of the batteries and put a adapter mount in it.
Then I can use the 24v pack as is and take advantage of the 3 yr warranty

 

[toplessHO]

got all my parts to complete.
found a NIB impact,2Ah battery,charger,tote bag for $75 shipped.
adapter $19.

The Warn winch replacement battery is $150
so I still have enough left in savings to buy 2 more of the 2Ah Kobalt batteries,
and have a tool,charger,tote bag as a bonus.
I had though about carving out the empty Warn battery case to mount the Kobalt battery in,but for now Ive surface mounted it for testing. If it doesnt get in the way I may just leave it as is.
Only downside is it will no longer fit in the 5 gallon bucket I store in,with the battery attached,so I just take it off and put in the bucket. Just as well as Ive left the switch on before and next use found that battery was dead.Now Im off to winch something to test it out...

 

[dogdog]

1) does it work ?

2) 2AH is not much at all for winches or those grinder or blowers at all ... not sure, I think they have the 5AH ones or buy two adapters and fit 2 batteries ?

 

[toplessHO]

why 2 adapters?
this ones mounted and wired,just unplug the battery,just like you would with a tool.
old batteries were only 2500mAh and they are 10 yrs old so Im sure its tired.
need to rethink with lithium,theres a lot of power there.They offer up to 6 Ah so I ll see how much this 2Ah will do.I still have one of the OEM batteries I can use for a back up,
but to be honest it doesnt have as much power,even when freshly charged as the new Kobalt does.

 

[dogdog]

Dunno just saying maybe parallel 2 2AH give you 4 ... it looks like you have enough space there for it.

 

[toplessHO]

why complicate? they make a 4Ah and 6 Ah pack for the Kobalt.
one reason I went with that. If the 2Ah doesnt last,I can always upgrade.
I didnt have that choice with the OEM battery.

 

[toplessHO]

up date
I finally had the chance to try this new battery pack out.
Works great,used it for a while and it still showed half capacity
The old ni hrdride would have been dead by then.

When ever theres a sale on the Kobalts I ll buy some more.
The 24v impact is actually pretty good too. so WIN:WIN

 

[dogdog]

There is a sale now

 

[toplessHO]

ok great
I ll head there in AM
thanks

 

[dogdog]

JK, I don't really know about the 24V stuff but will get the new impact tomorrow or monday., I just got a bunch of their 80v (2 chain saw and 2 trimmer) and 40V (5x trimmer) for their batteries and motors.

 

[toplessHO]

JK, I don't really know about the 24V stuff but will get the new impact tomorrow or monday., I just got a bunch of their 80v (2 chain saw and 2 trimmer) and 40V (5x trimmer) for their batteries and motors.

If you was joking it was a pretty weird coincidence.

There is a sale going on for a couple more days.
Buy 2 4ah batteries and charger for $149 and get a tool of your choice free.
I picked the most expensive tool,a 6.5 in skill saw,which listed for $129.
Tools come with a 5 yr warranty,batteries a 3 yr.

 

[dogdog]

If you was joking it was a pretty weird coincidence.

There is a sale going on for a couple more days.
Buy 2 4ah batteries and charger for $149 and get a tool of your choice free.
I picked the most expensive tool,a 6.5 in skill saw,which listed for $129.
Tools come with a 5 yr warranty,batteries a 3 yr.

I wasn't joking about the 40v and 80v stuff I got, and notice there was something 24V for sales lately (I wanted a electric bar stool racer), I am eyeing on the new impact they have... but other than that I wasn't really looking at the 24V battery on sale... I think I vaguely remember there was a black friday sales for 2 pack of 24V 4AH battery for $79... just wasn't 100% and was too wonky tired to google. So JK just in case I got it wrong for you and get your hopes up..