Replacing dead receptacles

[mjoekingz28]

I worry sometimes about receptacles. Let us say that a receptacle died(both the top and bottom plugs) and your fuse panel is untrustworthy. How would you be sure with your life that power wasn't live?


I would normally say plug in a known working lamp, see that it is receiving no power, then immediately plug it into a circuit that hasnt been interrupted. Voila, the receptacle in question must not be getting any electricity. But then I wonder, what if both of the plug-ins are blown.


In this scenario, doyou trust your fuse panel labeling or do you carefully remove the outlet from the wall and test it with a tool before proceeding? Or what? Thx

 

[southalabama]

You lost me at "fuse panel".

I'm not sure how it could be untrustworthy.

Flip the main breaker.

Invest in a non contact voltage detector.

 

[Firebrick43]

They make cheap voltage pens to check for power to a box and it just needs to be close. But the only safe to way to ensure safety is to pull the fuse or breaker and if others are around lock the panel

Never trust labeling.

Why are you putting up with a fuse panel that is "untrustworthy" and just what do you mean by that statement?

 

[JRC3]

You lost me at "fuse panel".

Flip the main breaker.

You mean, "pull out the main fuse block", right?

 

[Crazyjake8493]

I don't trust labels in a breaker panel unless I labeled it myself. Even then, you should have and use a non-contact voltage tester to see if there's power at the outlet or switch. I was taught to use the "live-dead-live" method of testing. Test a know live outlet, test the one believed to be dead, then test a known live one again. Maybe overkill? I use my tester often and change batteries as needed, and I trust it enough to do its job.

If your panel labels are not accurate, or you want to confirm them, a circuit breaker finder is a great time-saving tool. Although the power has to be on at the outlet or box you are testing for the tool to work.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I worry sometimes about receptacles. Let us say that a receptacle died(both the top and bottom plugs) and your fuse panel is untrustworthy. How would you be sure with your life that power wasn't live?


I would normally say plug in a known working lamp, see that it is receiving no power, then immediately plug it into a circuit that hasnt been interrupted. Voila, the receptacle in question must not be getting any electricity. But then I wonder, what if both of the plug-ins are blown.


In this scenario, doyou trust your fuse panel labeling or do you carefully remove the outlet from the wall and test it with a tool before proceeding? Or what? Thx

Not sure what u mean by both plugins blown.

If u want to make sure the circuit is dead, use a non contact inductive tester or even better, a multimeter.

 

[mjoekingz28]

I mean circuit panel. Each receptacle has two plugins- thats what I meant.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Flipping everything to off- on the inside panel and outside seems to be the "best" safest way to go about it.

 

[Norcal]

Flipping everything to off- on the inside panel and outside seems to be the "best" safest way to go about it.

Even that is not a guarantee of having everything off, testing is still the choice of anyone wishing to remain alive / uninjured, the reason for the comment prior is have seen taps made where they should not have been, meaning that they can't always be shut off. Be vigilant.

 

[Markfothebeast]

I've had this problem in our home when I first moved in. I replaced the wiring and fuse panel with a breaker panel.

We never had a "main" outdoor panel. I had to pull the main 60 amp fuse out of the main box which was in the basement. Than i pulled out the outlet receptacle, separated the wires carefully, turned power back on and tested each pair of wires (very carefully) with a multimeter to determine which was live.

When we had a "dead" outlet, that was a scary thought. Some of them were internally cracked apart inside and burnt. I immediately replaced all outlets. As well as put in 12/2 wiring with ground. These were 1960s outlets the previous owner never replaced.

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[JRC3]

Even that is not a guarantee of having everything off, testing is still the choice of anyone wishing to remain alive / uninjured, the reason for the comment prior is have seen taps made where they should not have been, meaning that they can't always be shut off. Be vigilant.

And if you don't know what to look for you may only be turning off a sub panel.


Also when checking outlets for power, be sure to check both terminals for power as one of the plugs might be split/switched, and even on a different circuit.

For example:

The wire color won't necessarily be red as it may not be fed by a 3-wire cable...It might be black, or even white for that matter. And again, it might even be on a different circuit.


A removed tab is a sure sign of a split/switched circuit/outlet:

 

[Markfothebeast]

A good rule is to treat every wire as if it is hot and don't touch it with your bare hands!

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[6PTsocket]

I mean circuit panel. Each receptacle has two plugins- thats what I meant.

They call it a duplex receptacle, the most common type, as opposed to a single receptacle

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[Brian_WK]

My buddy was changing and outlet in his shop Switched the breaker off to it checked the top outlet with a Non Contact probe. All was good or so he thought. pulled the screws reached in and grabbed the outlet and about that time started swearing like a crazy person. the outlet had been separated and was fed from 2 different breakers. Fluke probe didn't pick up the live outlet 2 inches away. Moral of the story check everything and make sure your testing device works correctly (not on hold batteries dead etc) and treat it like its live.

Brian

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Treat it like it's hot and you shouldn't have a problem.

 

[CGT80]

Just touch all the wires together and to the box. You will find out real fast if it was hot, and if you hold the wires long enough you may figure out which breaker controls that receptacle. Hey, it works for my electrician friend!

I have worked on suites where power was fed to an item from the neighboring suite. Sometimes they were joined in the past and then split into separate suites and other times, someone may have just decided it was better to run power from the neighbors to power their own small water heater, since you can access multiple suites from above the tbar ceilings.

Use an inductive tester
wear gloves
treat it like it is hot
use a multimeter
short out the wires to each other if still in doubt

I had people comment on my keeping one hand behind my back when working in live panels. That saved my **** when I disconnected a light fixture from the 208v air conditioning circuit, while it was hot. I turned off all breakers but the AC unit, and that is where someone had tied in. When I saw the tiny spark as I reconnected the two wires, I about crapped myself, as I wasn't wearing gloves. Since no other body parts were touching ground or neutral and the wires touched instead of my using my finger as a jumper, I didn't feel anything.

Some times it was better to do the work hot rather than deal with killing the power, due to the types of business we worked in. I always did as much work as possible on the dead end, or broke a connection and capped it to then work cold, to limit the amount of work I had to do with the hot wires. Of course, some j boxes were easy to work in and there were some where I insisted on killing the power after I pulled a receptacle and saw the mess in there. Watch those neutrals, they bite also. My electrician friend would get careless and was usually hit by those, where I have never been shocked when working hot due to being more careful. Just watch out for pulling staples out of lamp cord with insulated cutters. When hanging lights, I stapled a light to the fascia to work by and I didn't realize I put one through one of the conductors. When I pulled that staple out, it was clear that my aim was a bit off.

 

[PWC Repair]

Wifey gets mad at me cause I always change 'em out live/hot. Been bit, no biggie, now that time the new HEI was acting up on my 305 and I got knocked down..........that was a bite!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Wifey gets mad at me cause I always change 'em out live/hot. Been bit, no biggie, now that time the new HEI was acting up on my 305 and I got knocked down..........that was a bite!

Yep!

 

[Katodog]

Use an NCVT or a meter. I don't do any electrical work without testing first, it's good practice and safe.

I've done receptacles, light fixtures, etc. at home while they were hot but I'd never admit it...

I don't trust labels in a breaker panel unless I labeled it myself.

Yup, me too. I don't trust diddly in a box unless I know for sure it's wired to where it says it's wired.

 

[matt_i]

I always check phase to phase in those type systems, every hot to neutral (if present), every hot to ground.

I dont trust those little "pen" voltage checkers with a tiny coated pole to stab in the outlet. Every one I've yet seen, if I run them up and down my shirt sleeve its detecting electricity....seems iffy to me. The multimeter has yet to lie to me.

 

[Jarnipman]

I always test the outlet with a contact tester - I dont' trust the inductive testers. And when all the power is off, I quickly brush my hand aganist the outlet rather than grab it directly to make sure before I grab it. I never trust that an outlet is turned off because so many older circuits are MWB - multi-wire branched circuits (aka shared neutrals) and you can get shocked off the neutrals on these circuits when one breaker is turned off if the breakers are not tied together and there is a load on the neutral - I see miswired, wrong bus, or untied MWB all the time. Also as mentioned, two circuits on one outlet. Other hack wiring can also trick you when the breakers are off. Watch out for boxes being used as raceways for other circuits as in your outlet may be off, but there could be a live load in the box from other cabling. I never work without rubber soled shoes, preferably listed for said use, and not punctured and when working on live loads, line man gloves and at the very least safety glasses - checking my gloves for pinholes at each use and my boots soles. I am a safety freak, and assume that wires are always hot and that I won't get a shock I will die a horrible arc flash death and thus I never get shocked with that mentality. Also very important I watch my footings and plan my hand movements so that I don't slip onto a hot bus.

 

[trashmanssd]

Wifey gets mad at me cause I always change 'em out live/hot. Been bit, no biggie, now that time the new HEI was acting up on my 305 and I got knocked down..........that was a bite!

Same here, I am way to lackadaisical with 120 volt circuits, they give you a nice wake up like a cup of coffee.

My uncle was walking me through checking a few things on my dads A/C condenser (he is HVAC tech) so he knew what parts to bring to fix it (its a long ride for him), I kept forgetting to shut off the disconnect (as my mom likes to hide the condenser unit with shrubs so you have no room to move around the thing) and I got hit 6-7 times with 240 volts. Thats does not tickle, last time my arm actually locked up at a 90 degree angle for 30 seconds and couldn't move it. That's when I quit and told my uncle figure it out when he gets there.

Oh yeah also, got knocked out when I was like 5 years old when I stuck butter knife in a wall outlet. I blame my parents they told me not to, what do you think any little miscreant will do when you tell him not to do something. Wait until your gone and do it . I may have a problem with getting shocked I think I kinda like it :tard:.

 

[Norcal]

Unless you contact BOTH legs, you not getting hit with 240 or 208 volts, it's just 120 volts.

 

[Sal Bandini]

^^^ Agreed.

I got hit a few times with European voltage 230 and now 120 is just like a tickle.

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I usually test with a multimeter, why are people saying use a non-contact tester?

We plug cords into wall outlets all the time, why the fear about multimeters?

 

[JRC3]

I do things "live" all the time, but not if I'm standing on earth. That just freaks me out for some reason, not sure if it makes a difference or not.


I also laugh when people say they got hit by 240v, you know they only touched one leg. Most people don't understand the way it works and it's all in their head. I bet you would taste pennies and smell toast if you got hit by both legs at the same time. I thinks it's all about the frequency of the oscillations, man.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I usually test with a multimeter, why are people saying use a non-contact tester?

We plug cords into wall outlets all the time, why the fear about multimeters?

Because sometimes people dont have the money for a multimeter or have one available so the next best thing is a NCVD.

Also, a multimeter isnt always useable. Say u have unbroken wire passing through a j box and u want to know if its live. No way to use a multimeter to test that.

 

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Because sometimes people dont have the money for a multimeter or have one available so the next best thing is a NCVD.

Also, a multimeter isnt always useable. Say u have unbroken wire passing through a j box and u want to know if its live. No way to use a multimeter to test that.

I just set the MM to 500VAC or whatever the appropriate setting is and stick the leads in an outlet I know works. That's my way of doing a sanity test for the MM.

As for your second point, that is a good point. I guess you could something as "ground" like pipe or something, probably not safe though.

 

[Sal Bandini]

EU voltage is actually 230 line to ground.

IIRC in US there is also less common 208 where it could be line to ground.

EDIT: I think the 208 is line to neutral, not ground.

 

[trashmanssd]

Unless you contact BOTH legs, you not getting hit with 240 or 208 volts, it's just 120 volts.

^^^ Agreed.

I got hit a few times with European voltage 230 and now 120 is just like a tickle.

I do things "live" all the time, but not if I'm standing on earth. That just freaks me out for some reason, not sure if it makes a difference or not.


I also laugh when people say they got hit by 240v, you know they only touched one leg. Most people don't understand the way it works and it's all in their head. I bet you would taste pennies and smell toast if you got hit by both legs at the same time. I thinks it's all about the frequency of the oscillations, man.

True I am no electrician, but I did stay at a Holiday inn express last night.
I was changing the caps (but did not take picture of where wires were before we removed them to get new ones) and had test where to put the wires, also was manually engaging the contactor to click the motor on. Felt a lot different then 120 in the house with shoes on on a hard wood floor. Maybe it was just 120 with a better ground as i was kneeling in damp mulch and dirt in shorts.
Picture of the area i was messing around in.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

EU voltage is actually 230 line to ground.

IIRC in US there is also less common 208 where it could be line to ground.

EDIT: I think the 208 is line to neutral, not ground.

Actually 208Y/120 3phase is more common than 240/120v delta 3 phase

Its mainly used in commercial buildings that have minimal 3phase loads and mostly single phase 120v loads.

208v is line to line.

120v is line to neutral and ground.

True I am no electrician, but I did stay at a Holiday inn express last night.
I was changing the caps (but did not take picture of where wires were before we removed them to get new ones) and had test where to put the wires, also was manually engaging the contactor to click the motor on. Felt a lot different then 120 in the house with shoes on on a hard wood floor. Maybe it was just 120 with a better ground as i was kneeling in damp mulch and dirt in shorts.
Picture of the area i was messing around in.

Why were u working on an AC condensor without disconnecting the power?

Maybe u got bit by the capacitor??

 

[Sal Bandini]

Actually 208Y/120 3phase is more common than 240/120v delta 3 phase

Its mainly used in commercial buildings that have minimal 3phase loads and mostly single phase 120v loads.

208v is line to line.

120v is line to neutral and ground.

It's been a while since I looked at any 3 phase, but I remember the "high leg". This discusses it a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta

One phase is 208 L-N. I remember in a building the handy man wired in the lights to this once and when we came in the next day all of them were burned out from seeing 208V.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It's been a while since I looked at any 3 phase, but I remember the "high leg". This discusses it a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta

One phase is 208 L-N. I remember in a building the handy man wired in the lights to this once and when we came in the next day all of them were burned out from seeing 208V.

The high leg is found on 240/120v delta 3 phase systems.

2 legs to neutral are 120v. The third is 208v to neutral. That third leg has many names including high leg, red leg, and stinger leg.

The delta system is different than the 208Y/120v system...

 

[Norcal]

True I am no electrician, but I did stay at a Holiday inn express last night.
I was changing the caps (but did not take picture of where wires were before we removed them to get new ones) and had test where to put the wires, also was manually engaging the contactor to click the motor on. Felt a lot different then 120 in the house with shoes on on a hard wood floor. Maybe it was just 120 with a better ground as i was kneeling in damp mulch and dirt in shorts.
Picture of the area i was messing around in.

That unit is only switching one leg (very common) so there is still line voltage present after the contactor.

 

[Smoker]

That capacitor will give you a good whack for sure, regardless of whether power is off or not.