replacing receptacles w/ GFCI's - 2 wires, no GRD

[pancho400cid]

Hey guys -

1950's house still with two-prong un-grounded duplex receptacles in the parts of it that have not been re-modeled. A while back I asked about changing to grounded plugs. After looking at what that entails I'm now considering changing to GFCI receptacles. Too much wire pulling to replace the wiring.

I'm no electrician but I did research it quite a bit (and I've stayed a a Holiday Inn Express). I know I can add the GFCI's to the two wire system and mark them "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND". I understand the ramifications of not having an equipment ground and I'm OK with them for general purposes in a bedroom. I also know that one GFCI protects itself and any "downstream" receptacles, and that the downstream receps can be replaced with regular 3-prong grounded receptacles if the grounded receptacles are marked "GFCI PROTECTED - NO EQUIPMENT GROUND".

One issue is I do not know exactly how each individual receptacle (I think there are 4 total) is powered - in other words which one is first in the "daisy chain" or if some of them are on different sources.

To avoid the issue - I want to replace ALL the receptacles with GFCI's. I will likely end up with multiple GFCI's on the same line. Is that an issue?

Thanks!

 

[bczygan]

http://www.handymanusa.com/articles/ground1.html

Instead of replacing every receptacle with a GFCI, why don't you trace your circuits and find out what's what. Or add GFCI breakers.

Bill

 

[Jess]

An option we used when redoing a rental a couple of years ago was to add in 'Blind Front; GFCIs next to the panel and rerouted the circuit to the GFCI and put in a new short connection to the panel circuit breaker. This was permitted, installed by an electrical contractor we use and inspected by the city because it was in an attached unit. I had never seen these before but using them simplified bringing the unit up to code. The kitchen was another matter though... That required all new.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

http://www.handymanusa.com/articles/ground1.html

Instead of replacing every receptacle with a GFCI, why don't you trace your circuits and find out what's what. Or add GFCI breakers.

Bill

Map out the circuits so u know whats what and so u dont waste money on redundant GFCIs...

 

[cybrdyke]

I was under the impression that it didn't matter which receptacle on a circuit was a GFCI. In other words, as long as one of them is a GFCI, they're all protected, so no need to figure out which is the "first" one.
Is that right?
CD

 

[justsam]

I was under the impression that it didn't matter which receptacle on a circuit was a GFCI. In other words, as long as one of them is a GFCI, they're all protected, so no need to figure out which is the "first" one.
Is that right?
CD

In a word, NO!

Gfi's function by insuring that equal amounts of current are seen on the hot and neutral wires. Anything ahead of the receptacle does not pass through these sensors.

In the case of the OP, he could save both time and money by just putting in GFI breakers. This insures the GFI is at the very beginning of the circuit, and wiring to the first receptacle is protected.

 

[AndeiH]

I was under the impression that it didn't matter which receptacle on a circuit was a GFCI. In other words, as long as one of them is a GFCI, they're all protected, so no need to figure out which is the "first" one.
Is that right?
CD

nope, the gfci only protects itself and anything down the line. you can't have a gfci at the end of the circuit and expect it to protect the circuit before it.

 

[AndeiH]

Hey guys -

1950's house still with two-prong un-grounded duplex receptacles in the parts of it that have not been re-modeled. A while back I asked about changing to grounded plugs. After looking at what that entails I'm now considering changing to GFCI receptacles. Too much wire pulling to replace the wiring.

I'm no electrician but I did research it quite a bit (and I've stayed a a Holiday Inn Express). I know I can add the GFCI's to the two wire system and mark them "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND". I understand the ramifications of not having an equipment ground and I'm OK with them for general purposes in a bedroom. I also know that one GFCI protects itself and any "downstream" receptacles, and that the downstream receps can be replaced with regular 3-prong grounded receptacles if the grounded receptacles are marked "GFCI PROTECTED - NO EQUIPMENT GROUND".

One issue is I do not know exactly how each individual receptacle (I think there are 4 total) is powered - in other words which one is first in the "daisy chain" or if some of them are on different sources.

To avoid the issue - I want to replace ALL the receptacles with GFCI's. I will likely end up with multiple GFCI's on the same line. Is that an issue?

Thanks!

you are going to find out what circuit they are on when you turn off the breaker to replace them .

to answer your question you will have no issues installing 4 gfcis in the same circuit, just wire each to the line side.

 

[pancho400cid]

you are going to find out what circuit they are on when you turn off the breaker to replace them

I think they are all on the same breaker, but they may not all be wired one after the other if you follow my (possibly flawed) logic. For example instead of four receps one after the other, they could be "vee'd" two-and-two from a home run or whatever - or could they?

I hear the comments about putting GFCI's only where they are really needed, but it doesn't take much attic time (nasty - no lights (drop/flash light required), already hot, very low crawl space, ancient blown insulation, etc) and/or repeated trips turning the breaker off and on checking which wires are hot or not after disconnecting to make it worthwhile to just change them all to GFCI and be done - or so it seems to me.

 

[pancho400cid]

Uh Oh.... I may have just muddied my own question... or maybe coming to see where you some of guys are coming from...

When I pull a receptacle, if it has wires on both sides I'll have to figure out which side is hot and which side is fed through the receptacle. Any dead receptacles would be "downstream" of the receptacle in question. Those could be replaced with a properly marked 3 prong grounded receptacle. Right?

 

[dw1]

Uh Oh.... I may have just muddied my own question... or maybe coming to see where you some of guys are coming from...

When I pull a receptacle, if it has wires on both sides I'll have to figure out which side is hot and which side is fed through the receptacle. Any dead receptacles would be "downstream" of the receptacle in question. Those could be replaced with a properly marked 3 prong grounded receptacle. Right?

You got it, put the hot wires on your Line side of GFI and the not hot wires to the Load Side GFI, problem sometime is you might think a wire runs in the wall to the next outlet but it could stop anywhere in between with no problems or could cause an issue with the GFI operation. I would try it out first, it would be your cheapest route

PS if you wire the GFI backwards, it wont work, so if you turn the power back on and have issues, check your wiring

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

How many things are you actually plugging in that actually require a grounded outlet?

 

[James-W]

Are the walls insulated? How many outlets do you have and how far apart are they? Reason I asked is because you mentioned that part of the house was remodeled and that part has grounded outlets. It is the part of the house that was not remodeled that has the problem of non-grounded outlets. If the walls are not insulated, then maybe you should be doing more than just replacing outlets. I only mention it because replacing wiring is a whole lot easier if the walls are opened up in order to be insulated. That's what we did with our house and putting in all new wiring was simple.

 

[bzinsky]

If it helps, I installed 2 gfi's on one circuit in my bathroom before I knew that it was not a good idea. It trips like once a month for no reason.

 

[pancho400cid]

Thanks for all the feedback. We heavily re-modeled the kitchen etc. about 4 years ago and the electricians said anything they "touch" had to be brought up to code - so all good in that part of the house.

This bedroom re-model is much smaller and I'm doing most all the work. As with any re-model - you gotta stop somewhere so not planning to tear out drywall any more than necessary.

After discussion here, I'll probably just pull all the outlets and then I think I can figure out what drives what and add one GFCI where needed and three-prong grounded outlets on the "downstream" locations. I'll mark them all per the posts above. I was just being lazy and had not thought it all the way through..

Can you buy cover plates with the markings - or stickers or something?

 

[dw1]

Thanks for all the feedback. We heavily re-modeled the kitchen etc. about 4 years ago and the electricians said anything they "touch" had to be brought up to code - so all good in that part of the house.

This bedroom re-model is much smaller and I'm doing most all the work. As with any re-model - you gotta stop somewhere so not planning to tear out drywall any more than necessary.

After discussion here, I'll probably just pull all the outlets and the I think I can figure out what drives what and add one GFCI where needed and three-prong grounded outlets on the "downstream" locations. I'll mark them all per the posts above. I was just being lazy and had not thought it all the way through..

Can you buy cover plates with the markings - or stickers or something?

They used to put stickers inside the GFI box, I havent seen them in a while, PM me your address and I will print some up and mail them to you

 

[Alchymist]

If it helps, I installed 2 gfi's on one circuit in my bathroom before I knew that it was not a good idea. It trips like once a month for no reason.

Depends on how they are wired. Two or more GFCIs wired in parallel will not be a problem, wired in series they can and often do nuisance trip. In other words, if the second GFCI is wired to the load terminals of the first, it's in series.

 

[pancho400cid]

They used to put stickers inside the GFI box, I havent seen them in a while, PM me your address and I will print some up and mail them to you.

Really appreciate it!, but I have the ability to print them on transparent label paper if I have to.

Two or more GFCIs wired in parallel will not be a problem, wired in series they can and often do nuisance trip.

That is where I was going with my original question. I think the consensus is it is best to avoid multiple GFCI's on a branch. Thanks!