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Requesting some input/info

fruitjacket

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Apr 19, 2017
Messages
11
My fiancee and I want to purchase about 40acres of wooded land and build a barndominium/pole shed home on it. This will be our forever home.

I earn a pretty good wage here in MN and have essentially no debt (just a truck payment).
I also own a small business that can be essentially run from home; provided we have cell service and internet service. I am however, not rich by any stretch.

Our ideas:
Buy land, bulldoze trees, prep for 50x100 pole shed, have shed built, and get it to the point where we can "live" in it. She and I are both OK with it being nothing fancy; just to get us started. No kids; just our dog.

Then as time permits, we would continue to work on it to grow it into essentially a very open floor-planned home, with a divided shop/garage area.

Questions:
Central MN, what's something our original idea (just enough to live in) going to cost including prep of ground, well, septic, electrical being run? (I'M ONLY LOOKING FOR ROUGH NUMBERS...nothing concrete).

Radiant floor heat? Will it heat the whole building in winters that are as much as -15 below? What's the best way to heat something this big?

Financing:
I've called a lady I know about getting a mortgage...she said there's no way she can do it. Called my bank, they said they have no way to know how to appraise the value since it's not a "house".
Where can I look for financing?

I'm sure I'll have many more questions, but at this point, I just want some of the basics, so ANY info would be much appreciated.

Chris
 
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ducksface

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Oct 25, 2012
Messages
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No one finances that stuff outside of hard money.
10percent is a more than fair price to pay since hard money guy has the money, and you don't.

The chances of being approved site wise for such a thing is very low.

You're at a 50percent down payment, maybe 60 percent down even at 10 per cent money. ON JUST THE ACREAGE. House is seperate.
AND your self employed income only counts on your post deduction line. If you wrote off $60k,that's $60k that won't count.

Regular lenders are not interested in Empire building. They're interested in profit.

If you can't rent exactly the place you describe for half of what a mortgage would be I'll be very surprised.
Someone will be here to tell you of the rat hole that rent is. Ask someone upside down in a house, let alone a shop home combo....
 
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fruitjacket

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Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
11
No one finances that stuff outside of hard money.
10percent is a more than fair price to pay since hard money guy has the money, and you don't.

The chances of being approved site wise for such a thing is very low.

You're at a 50percent down payment, maybe 60 percent down even at 10 per cent money. ON JUST THE ACREAGE. House is seperate.
AND your self employed income only counts on your post deduction line. If you wrote off $60k,that's $60k that won't count.

Regular lenders are not interested in Empire building. They're interested in profit.

If you can't rent exactly the place you describe for half of what a mortgage would be I'll be very surprised.
Someone will be here to tell you of the rat hole that rent is. Ask someone upside down in a house, let alone a shop home combo....

First off, I appreciate the feedback. Thank you!

So I'm understanding that my odds of getting financed for something like this is very small.
However, I don't understand what you mean that my self-employment income only counts on my post deduction line? I'm sorry but I'm not following you.

My income from my business has always been included when applying for any type of loan.

I don't want to rent. Period.
However, if you're suggesting this is a bad idea, and I'd end up upside down on the home, then that's good info and that's also much appreciated.

Again, thanks for the feedback.
 

tjdux

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Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
801
Location
Southern Nebraska
No idea about the how to accomplish something like that but if your looking at 40 acres you may want to look into farming loans and start some kind of "farm"... Sorry i have no clue how any of that works but I know many farmers just starting out finance land and buildings regularly...

Theres got to be some way to do it. The land has to be worth something especally once developed to live on so the bank has to be able to see some equity in it. As long as you have a good percentage down payment I bet you can do it. Don't get discouraged, its your dream.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 

Falcon67

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Jun 11, 2009
Messages
18,371
Location
Merkel, TX
No idea about the how to accomplish something like that but if your looking at 40 acres you may want to look into farming loans and start some kind of "farm"... Sorry i have no clue how any of that works but I know many farmers just starting out finance land and buildings regularly...

Theres got to be some way to do it. The land has to be worth something especally once developed to live on so the bank has to be able to see some equity in it. As long as you have a good percentage down payment I bet you can do it. Don't get discouraged, its your dream.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I don't know about MN but here you'd never ever get a construction loan for anything like that, not commercial or a land bank. You could get a loan to build a barn, but I'd not think at anything close to home level interest rates and probably better not say you're going to live in it. Institutions, including our credit union, don't make small mortgage loans. There a minimums and construction loans for individuals with no background in building or construction will be met with "no way in hell". :) From what I've read, "barndominums" are a new fad - that means no comparables, which means likely low appraisal on the end product which limits your loan value - possibly not even to cover construction costs.

Your project is fund out of your pocket quality, or buy and flip a real house or two to build up some cash reserve. You may well end up quite right side up, but you'll play hell getting anyone to give you money to do it. Not everything can be financed - try buying a used 2000 model motor home with low miles. That's 99% going to be a cash sale.
 
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Thumper68

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May 16, 2013
Messages
5,134
Location
Duluth MN
Check with Woodlands bank in Hinckley, they do land only loans IIRC.

So rough break down

Land 40 ac 20 to 40k
Septic 10k
well 5 to 10k
building anywhere from 30 to 100 sq foot

A lot depends on how much you can do yourself.

The lot clearing you can do yourself with rented equipment and a few weekends

The building and access is a **** shoot with out more info, do you need fill for a road and building pad?
 
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fruitjacket

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Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
11
I don't know about MN but here you'd never ever get a construction loan for anything like that, not commercial or a land bank. You could get a loan to build a barn, but I'd not think at anything close to home level interest rates and probably better not say you're going to live in it. Institutions, including our credit union, don't make small mortgage loans. There a minimums and construction loans for individuals with no background in building or construction will be met with "no way in hell". :) From what I've read, "barndominums" are a new fad - that means no comparables, which means likely low appraisal on the end product which limits your loan value - possibly not even to cover construction costs.

Your project is fund out of your pocket quality, or buy and flip a real house or two to build up some cash reserve.

Excellent info. That's what I was hoping for (good info) and also feared.
Thank you.
 
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fruitjacket

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
11
No idea about the how to accomplish something like that but if your looking at 40 acres you may want to look into farming loans and start some kind of "farm"... Sorry i have no clue how any of that works but I know many farmers just starting out finance land and buildings regularly...

Theres got to be some way to do it. The land has to be worth something especally once developed to live on so the bank has to be able to see some equity in it. As long as you have a good percentage down payment I bet you can do it. Don't get discouraged, its your dream.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Thank you! I'll figure something out!
 
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fruitjacket

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
11
Check with Woodlands bank in Hinckley, they do land only loans IIRC.

So rough break down

Land 40 ac 20 to 40k
Septic 10k
well 5 to 10k
building anywhere from 30 to 100 sq foot

A lot depends on how much you can do yourself.

The lot clearing you can do yourself with rented equipment and a few weekends

The building and access is a **** shoot with out more info, do you need fill for a road and building pad?

See I figured $500 to $1000 per acre near Cambridge area (north of there actually). But the lots I'm seeing are $80k for 40 acres unless it's swamp land.

I can do the majority of the work on the house. Won't touch plumbing.
Have friends to help with electrical, framing, sheetrock, etc.

I don't know if it would need fill. What kind of land do I need (or should avoid)?
 

kd3pc

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Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Messages
3,630
Location
Northern Neck
Excellent info. That's what I was hoping for (good info) and also feared.
Thank you.


The biggest question right now, can you get a permit to build this? Many areas will only permit a residential style "home". Even here in Middle TN, the permits for an RV barndominium are restricted to certain areas.

best of luck.
 
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fruitjacket

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
11
The biggest question right now, can you get a permit to build this? Many areas will only permit a residential style "home". Even here in Middle TN, the permits for an RV barndominium are restricted to certain areas.

best of luck.

I honestly have NO idea. I'm trying to figure out if it's even viable.
 

RPH

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Dec 17, 2006
Messages
4,190
Location
Michigan Thumb
Might be cheaper and most likely easier to locate an older farm house on acreage. Bank would be interested in loaning on that. You can always build the shop of dreams.
 
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bdbecker

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Nov 18, 2015
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Another thing you might think about, you'll want to show some sort of agricultural activity on a property that size to avoid having to pay a higher tax rate. Not sure what the MN laws are, but in IA, it can make a really big difference.
 

Thumper68

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Joined
May 16, 2013
Messages
5,134
Location
Duluth MN
What county are you looking in, Pine is very lenient on what they will allow due to the need for a larger tax base.

As far as land goes look for something with good road access, power close and at least 10 ac of high ground.

This is a good time to be looking since the leaves are not out yet, you can get on the ground and walk it and see what is there.

You mentioned Internet, check into that as well, at the shop in northern pine I have DSL and it is just able to stream video with some buffering, a lot of that area internet is spotty due to old infrastructure.

IIRC there is a real estate company in that area that specializes in hunting/bare land and they most likely can help you out in both finding land and where to go for financing.
 

bastage

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Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
234
Location
Kuna ID
If it was me I would be looking at doing it in stages... IE pick your land & fiunance that & then pay it off.. Then you have the land as collateral to build a house (bare minimum of what you need so that its considered finished or build it with the footprint you need to be able to attach the extremely large rest of the garage to it) then pay that off, then refi again to build the shop/barn.

Someday I plan to do just this, but for me its just to move a little farther out of town on a chunk of land big enough to have some critters (instead of in a subdivision).
 

My Old Tools

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Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
5,452
Location
Hamrick Lake, TX
You can finance this kind of thing because I did it. You have to have great credit and the right banker. I bought the land first with a loan from BA. 6 months later I got them to loan on a 30x80 metal building and consolidate the land into it. From there, I did everything on my credit card, buy a stack of 2x4 and frame the inside rooms, buy insulation and insulate the frame, buy a stack of sheetrock and rock the inside rooms, buy plumbing fixtures and copper and learn to solder joints, etc. By then I was living in it and I started building cabinets (plywood on sawhorses until then). I lived there 10 years and have owned it for 19. I'm selling it this spring for 3 times what I have in it. This is what you can do....
http://www.realtor.com/realestatean...-3305_Greenville_TX_75402_M83941-72016#photo0
 
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TractorJeff

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Messages
3,309
Location
Elkhorn, WI
GOOGLE the major pole building builders to see the "Home/Garage" buildings. Pick out something close to what you think you ultimately want, contact them and start asking questions including, "How do other clients finance these?" They want to sell to you so I am sure they would have the local contacts for your area.
 

myredracer

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Joined
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Messages
557
Location
Langley, BC
It all sounds lovely and romantic, and you may think you have what it takes, but...

I've done this twice now, on a 5 acre property (which 2nd wife & I now live in) and prior to that a 10 acre property (that 1st wife and I owned). (Note clue right there.) I'm an engineer and spent a career in building construction so had a decent idea of some of the things I'd be getting into, or so I thought. So have a few comments to pass along. Apologies for being long-winded.

The 5 acres was bare land with no trees because it had been farmed before, plus it had a small crappy old farm house that eventually got torn down but was live-able until the new house was at occupancy permit stage. The 10 acres was heavily forested and we bought a well-used fifth wheel trailer to live in. Had it logged and we sold the timber at a good price which helped, but had a HUGE mess of stumps and brush to burn. Logging is not fun and best kept to a minimum in the beginning. Having no trees in the way was definitely a big help.

There will be all sorts of twists and turns and unexpected things that you could never have expected in your wildest dreams (or worst nightmares) and you should be prepared to be able to handle the worst. What do you know about soil conditions and water availability for a well? Will you have poor perc rates and have to install an expensive sewage treatment plant? Will a simple surface well work or will you need to drill in one or more locations for a deep well? What are neighboring properties like for wells? Drilling wells is expensive and sometimes you need to drill in multiple locations. Sometimes you can't get a building permit until you have a well and the water tests out okay to gov't standards and/or have a permit for the septic system.

Consider making an offer contingent on finding a suitable location for a septic field with a decent perc rate and also for finding a source of potable water. If the owner balks, maybe it's not the place for you. Some owner's provide an approved perc test and some have a well in place.

For the 10 acre lot, we had a standard builder's type mortgage and had to meet certain completion stages as we went along to get another draw and it was tough to get to each stage. On the 5 acre lot we had a line of credit type mortgage. The LOC mortgage worked really well. As the construction progressed, the property value increased and were able to get the limit increased when the bank's appraiser looked at it. When you are building on acreage, there are many things that add little, if any, value to the property. You can lay down tons & tons of expensive gravel for a driveway for ex. and not increase the value. Similar with fencing, logging, well, etc. There will always be unexpected expenses and if you had a conventional loan and had to meet specific completion stages, you could be SOL. Banks generally don't like owner-built projects, esp. if on bare acreage. In Canada, I think LOC mortgages aren't available anymore.

Do NOT build a barn, workshop, garage or outbuilding first and do NOT live in one of these temporarily. BTDT and it is a bad idea. Build the house first and get it live-able. Banks want houses, not outbuildings and some jurisdictions will not allow anything other than a house to be built first. Have a functioning septic system, a potable water supply (well or city water) and power for temp. accomodation. Live in an RV if you have to in the very beginning but you will need to dump the holding tanks every few days to a week. Getting a pump-out service is expensive. Maintaining a healthy relationship with g/f and family is important and should be at the top of your list and living in third world conditions is not helpful.

Unless you will be building a small house, consider paying a framing crew to get the structure up asap so you can get the roof on. Then you can take a deep breath and relax and take a break or go slower to keep your relationship on track. Unless you are a professional framer and have a bodybuilder's body, framing will drag out longer than expected. I framed the 4K+ sq. ft. house plus 2K sq. ft. separate workshop on the 10 acres and everything else except drywall and plumbing entirely myself and it was slow and painful. On the 5 acres, the house is 4K+ sq. ft. with 3K+ sq. ft. attached workshop/garage a framing crew built it and a roofing co. did the roof (metal) and once the roof was on, things went much faster and smoother. Do you know what soils condition is like for where the foundations will be? Is there blue clay or solid rock below the topsoil? Both of these can cost a lot to remedy. Building a house closer to the street can sometimes save a lot (driveway, logging, temp. & permanent power).

If you are going to be buried in the project outside your normal job working hours, maybe set your g/f up as the official purchaser and gofer. That way you can find or negotiate better deals & prices on materials and not be without things like nails that can stop your work. I used to work all day on the house and then run to HD late in the evening to get misc. stuff but paid higher prices for it. Set up accounts with a lumber yard, plumbing & electric wholesalers, etc. in advance. Cash accounts can get you a decent discount sometimes without having to be in debt to them. My 2nd wife is an accountant which has helped tremendously - wouldn't let me buy anything without shopping around for the best price. She even found a few things used off CL for cheap like perfectly good fiberglass batts from a house being torn down. Bought some things from a building materials salvage place like all the 3" rigid foam under the garage floor. Every dollar that you can save along the way can make a big difference in the end.

The inspection & permitting processes by the various local AHJs will take a long time, longer than you think - covering the septic system, well, logging, buildings, importing fill, etc. and you will be hog-tied until you wait out the process and have permit in hand. The AHJ *could* require a structural engineer, a geo-tech. eng. for soils compaction or drainage, a surveyor, etc. all costing more $$. Choose contractors wisely and avoid issues or at the worst, a lawsuit. Be prepared for some things costing more, and maybe some a lot more than expected. Think about having some sort of contingency fund available.

Don't know if you are in an agricultural land area. We grow hedging trees and have an area in hay to get farm tax status. Doesn't make much money and is plenty of work but helps a LOT on reducing the property tax. After 13 years of working on our current place, we just had it appraised and it's now worth almost 10 times what it cost in 2003. The ultra-red hot local housing market in the last few years has really helped but if we were to be looking for the same kind of property to build on today from scratch, I don't think we could afford it. Now have a good retirement fund for when we eventually sell and downsize.

Executive summary: Focus first on maintaining healthy relationships with g/f, family, friends and those you work with. Secondly,, focus on getting the house up, and only things that must be done to support it like well, septic, power and driveway and do not let yourself get distracted by other things that will slow down the house and **** up your time and available $$.

Just my 2 cent opinions...
 
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fruitjacket

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
11
It all sounds lovely and romantic, and you may think you have what it takes, but...

I've done this twice now, on a 5 acre property (which 2nd wife & I now live in) and prior to that a 10 acre property (that 1st wife and I owned). (Note clue right there.) I'm an engineer and spent a career in building construction so had a decent idea of some of the things I'd be getting into, or so I thought. So have a few comments to pass along. Apologies for being long-winded.

The 5 acres was bare land with no trees because it had been farmed before, plus it had a small crappy old farm house that eventually got torn down but was live-able until the new house was at occupancy permit stage. The 10 acres was heavily forested and we bought a well-used fifth wheel trailer to live in. Had it logged and we sold the timber at a good price which helped, but had a HUGE mess of stumps and brush to burn. Logging is not fun and best kept to a minimum in the beginning. Having no trees in the way was definitely a big help.

There will be all sorts of twists and turns and unexpected things that you could never have expected in your wildest dreams (or worst nightmares) and you should be prepared to be able to handle the worst. What do you know about soil conditions and water availability for a well? Will you have poor perc rates and have to install an expensive sewage treatment plant? Will a simple surface well work or will you need to drill in one or more locations for a deep well? What are neighboring properties like for wells? Drilling wells is expensive and sometimes you need to drill in multiple locations. Sometimes you can't get a building permit until you have a well and the water tests out okay to gov't standards and/or have a permit for the septic system.

Consider making an offer contingent on finding a suitable location for a septic field with a decent perc rate and also for finding a source of potable water. If the owner balks, maybe it's not the place for you. Some owner's provide an approved perc test and some have a well in place.

For the 10 acre lot, we had a standard builder's type mortgage and had to meet certain completion stages as we went along to get another draw and it was tough to get to each stage. On the 5 acre lot we had a line of credit type mortgage. The LOC mortgage worked really well. As the construction progressed, the property value increased and were able to get the limit increased when the bank's appraiser looked at it. When you are building on acreage, there are many things that add little, if any, value to the property. You can lay down tons & tons of expensive gravel for a driveway for ex. and not increase the value. Similar with fencing, logging, well, etc. There will always be unexpected expenses and if you had a conventional loan and had to meet specific completion stages, you could be SOL. Banks generally don't like owner-built projects, esp. if on bare acreage. In Canada, I think LOC mortgages aren't available anymore.

Do NOT build a barn, workshop, garage or outbuilding first and do NOT live in one of these temporarily. BTDT and it is a bad idea. Build the house first and get it live-able. Banks want houses, not outbuildings and some jurisdictions will not allow anything other than a house to be built first. Have a functioning septic system, a potable water supply (well or city water) and power for temp. accomodation. Live in an RV if you have to in the very beginning but you will need to dump the holding tanks every few days to a week. Getting a pump-out service is expensive. Maintaining a healthy relationship with g/f and family is important and should be at the top of your list and living in third world conditions is not helpful.

Unless you will be building a small house, consider paying a framing crew to get the structure up asap so you can get the roof on. Then you can take a deep breath and relax and take a break or go slower to keep your relationship on track. Unless you are a professional framer and have a bodybuilder's body, framing will drag out longer than expected. I framed the 4K+ sq. ft. house plus 2K sq. ft. separate workshop on the 10 acres and everything else except drywall and plumbing entirely myself and it was slow and painful. On the 5 acres, the house is 4K+ sq. ft. with 3K+ sq. ft. attached workshop/garage a framing crew built it and a roofing co. did the roof (metal) and once the roof was on, things went much faster and smoother. Do you know what soils condition is like for where the foundations will be? Is there blue clay or solid rock below the topsoil? Both of these can cost a lot to remedy. Building a house closer to the street can sometimes save a lot (driveway, logging, temp. & permanent power).

If you are going to be buried in the project outside your normal job working hours, maybe set your g/f up as the official purchaser and gofer. That way you can find or negotiate better deals & prices on materials and not be without things like nails that can stop your work. I used to work all day on the house and then run to HD late in the evening to get misc. stuff but paid higher prices for it. Set up accounts with a lumber yard, plumbing & electric wholesalers, etc. in advance. Cash accounts can get you a decent discount sometimes without having to be in debt to them. My 2nd wife is an accountant which has helped tremendously - wouldn't let me buy anything without shopping around for the best price. She even found a few things used off CL for cheap like perfectly good fiberglass batts from a house being torn down. Bought some things from a building materials salvage place like all the 3" rigid foam under the garage floor. Every dollar that you can save along the way can make a big difference in the end.

The inspection & permitting processes by the various local AHJs will take a long time, longer than you think - covering the septic system, well, logging, buildings, importing fill, etc. and you will be hog-tied until you wait out the process and have permit in hand. The AHJ *could* require a structural engineer, a geo-tech. eng. for soils compaction or drainage, a surveyor, etc. all costing more $$. Choose contractors wisely and avoid issues or at the worst, a lawsuit. Be prepared for some things costing more, and maybe some a lot more than expected. Think about having some sort of contingency fund available.

Don't know if you are in an agricultural land area. We grow hedging trees and have an area in hay to get farm tax status. Doesn't make much money and is plenty of work but helps a LOT on reducing the property tax. After 13 years of working on our current place, we just had it appraised and it's now worth almost 10 times what it cost in 2003. The ultra-red hot local housing market in the last few years has really helped but if we were to be looking for the same kind of property to build on today from scratch, I don't think we could afford it. Now have a good retirement fund for when we eventually sell and downsize.

Executive summary: Focus first on maintaining healthy relationships with g/f, family, friends and those you work with. Secondly,, focus on getting the house up, and only things that must be done to support it like well, septic, power and driveway and do not let yourself get distracted by other things that will slow down the house and **** up your time and available $$.

Just my 2 cent opinions...

First off, I truly appreciate the long-winded post.
Thank you for your time. And I also tend to agree with you on the points made inside. This is one of the reasons I asked such a question; because I'm looking for the gotchas.

We're considering buying a mobile home (yeah...I know) on 40 acres of very wooded property. It would be cheap enough to pay off her existing debt, while living there, then since we have a 'home' and property, we could use that as collateral for the outbuilding and then just build it the way we want.

I assume the well, septic, power will be available to tap into, so we can work on it on a cash basis and just move in and sell the mobile home later on.

Thanks again for your input!
 
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fruitjacket

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
11
GOOGLE the major pole building builders to see the "Home/Garage" buildings. Pick out something close to what you think you ultimately want, contact them and start asking questions including, "How do other clients finance these?" They want to sell to you so I am sure they would have the local contacts for your area.

You know you'd figure that would be the case. I contacted two local big name builders and they both said "we don't finance them, you'll have to call your bank".

It would seem I'm not the first person to run into a financing issue; so why not be proactive and find someone who will help your customers buy from you?
 
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fruitjacket

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2017
Messages
11
What county are you looking in, Pine is very lenient on what they will allow due to the need for a larger tax base.

As far as land goes look for something with good road access, power close and at least 10 ac of high ground.

This is a good time to be looking since the leaves are not out yet, you can get on the ground and walk it and see what is there.

You mentioned Internet, check into that as well, at the shop in northern pine I have DSL and it is just able to stream video with some buffering, a lot of that area internet is spotty due to old infrastructure.

IIRC there is a real estate company in that area that specializes in hunting/bare land and they most likely can help you out in both finding land and where to go for financing.

I have a buddy in Pine (near Braham) that said he'd sell me 5 acres of his land, but then they're hearing that I'd need 10 to build on. But I think that's just rumors. Plus I'm going to be working in Elk River, and don't really want to drive that far each day for commuting.

Yeah internet is going to be a necessity, so at a minimum I'll need good cell service.

Thanks for all your tips. I appreciate the help from someone local!
PS - If you ever need a carry permit class, let me know.
 
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fruitjacket

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Apr 19, 2017
Messages
11
What about selling some timber if you find a piece of land with timber value to raise funds for the building?

Wouldn't know the first thing about it, but there's a LOT of wooded property.
I'm not opposed to the idea. Appreciate that!
 
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