Reroute this AC wire?

[Muggzy]

Don't care about the phone line, but the 120 is scorched.
So the background is this; bought a 22yo house that was formerly inhabited by an electrician who does commercial high rise buildings in NYC. I've been fixing his "handy work" as I come across them (for instance he had a 14/3 wire connected to two seperate 20amp Breakers & sharing the nuetral).
Now, I just had the boiler replaced (water temp was set at 205*, New one is set for 180*). While insulating some hot water plumbing lines in the ceiling of my unfinished basement, I found this 14 ga scorched wire insulation. I left the pipe insulation unsealed until I decide what to do about the electrical.

I'm not an electrician or a plumber but can handle most jobs around a house. But I don't know building codes well enough to know what to do here. Is this OK, now that the hot water temp was reduced, or is this never ok? Also, I don't know what the temp ratings are for romex. Any input is appreciated.

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[yeldogt]

So he has a romex in with the hot water boiler run?

The other (twisted) looks like alarm wire

 

[GirchyGirchy]

What's the other grey wire just to the left? I'd route it through its holes, assuming it's 120/240 as well. I wouldn't leave it where it is.

 

[Muggzy]

Yup, and the twisted is for an old phone (landline) that's not used anymore.

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[Muggzy]

What's the other grey wire just to the left? I'd route it through its holes, assuming it's 120/240 as well. I wouldn't leave it where it is.

Grey wire is another 120v line that I belive is original to the house. Though I have not checked it to the source or destination. And yeah, why the heel don't the guy run it along with that one. There's room along side it in the holes.

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[bitbycarbug]

. I've been fixing his "handy work" as I come across them (for instance he had a 14/3 wire connected to two seperate 20amp Breakers & sharing the nuetral).

That is called multi-wiring. It is perfectly fine in the electrical code AFAIK. Though he should have used 12/3.

http://www.electrical101.com/multiwire-branch-circuit.html

 

[American Locomotive]

Edit:

 

[Norcal]

If NM cable box is marked as NM-B, it has a 90 degree C rating most all from about 1985 to present is 90C, if the jacket says NM it is 60C but either type is sized as 60 degree.

 

[walrus]

That is called multi-wiring. It is perfectly fine in the electrical code AFAIK. Though he should have used 12/3.



http://www.electrical101.com/multiwire-branch-circuit.html

He should have used a 15amp breaker with that 14. He cant be much of an electrician if he is running romex inside pipe insulation. period.

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[Muggzy]

That is called multi-wiring. It is perfectly fine in the electrical code AFAIK. Though he should have used 12/3.



http://www.electrical101.com/multiwire-branch-circuit.html

Ok, so the 3-wires/two breakers makes sense now. As a worst case situation in a circuit w/correctly sized breakers for the wire and both circuits loaded with 15 amps each, there'd actually be zero current in the nuetral since the two currents would be out of phase. Since I rewired the circuit using a single 15amp breaker and 14 ga wire and shifted a couple of other breakers around, I can't be sure the two were actually on different phases. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

However, there were still *several* 20 amp breakers with 14 gage wire. Unless you can point me to some reference that would make that acceptable, that's not cool.


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[gpiggaz]

Might want to move this over to the electrical forum here on GJ, you'll get even more inputs. Multi wire was legal when our house was built in 1987, not sure about the latest NEC, and indeed the two breakers have to be on different legs of the incoming power- The main breaker panels are set up (at least ours was) to ensure that if you used a dual breaker it would end up on both legs and the neutral wire would indeed only have the max current on it at any time - And yes- 14AWG, last I checked, max CB rating is 15A.

 

[Muggzy]

He should have used a 15amp breaker with that 14. He cant be much of an electrician if he is running romex inside pipe insulation. period.

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The pipe insulation was being installed by me. That's how I noticed the discolored (singed?) wire.

I'm not sure it's singed anymore or some sort of interaction between the paper on the fiberglass batting and the plastic insulation on the wire. Since I posted this originally, I'm finding other wires that were in contact with the paper side of the fiberglass batting insulation.

Additionally, the paper on the fiberglass batting is black and crispy wherever hot water pipes were in contact with it. But there are places where the paper was in contact with some of the wires, that the paper is blackened too.

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[rburke65]

If it’s melted I’d replace it, or traced it out, cut out the b@d and set two boxes and splice in th3good.

 

[jhelrey]

Maybe it was singed due to a solder joint at some point that is no longer there...

 

[The Cobbler]

moved to electrical section

 

[rslaback]

As a guy who works with plastics every day, that hot water pipe didn't scorch that line unless you had 450 degree steam going through it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Don't care about the phone line, but the 120 is scorched.
So the background is this; bought a 22yo house that was formerly inhabited by an electrician who does commercial high rise buildings in NYC. I've been fixing his "handy work" as I come across them (for instance he had a 14/3 wire connected to two separate 20amp Breakers & sharing the neutral).
Now, I just had the boiler replaced (water temp was set at 205*, New one is set for 180*). While insulating some hot water plumbing lines in the ceiling of my unfinished basement, I found this 14 ga scorched wire insulation. I left the pipe insulation unsealed until I decide what to do about the electrical.

I'm not an electrician or a plumber but can handle most jobs around a house. But I don't know building codes well enough to know what to do here. Is this OK, now that the hot water temp was reduced, or is this never ok? Also, I don't know what the temp ratings are for romex. Any input is appreciated.

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Are you sure that is 120v wiring? Looks like low volt doorbell, alarm, or thermostat wiring. Its definitely not NM-b aka Romex

The 14/3 connected to 2 breaker poles is a multi-wire branch circuit. totally legal only thing wrong with it is the breaker shouldve been 15a not 20a

So he has a romex in with the hot water boiler run?

The other (twisted) looks like alarm wire

the twisted wire is what he is referring to and what youre calling Romex. Its definitely not NM-b

That is called multi-wire branch circuit. It is perfectly fine in the electrical code AFAIK. Though he should have used 12/3.

http://www.electrical101.com/multiwire-branch-circuit.html

fixed it for ya :thumbup

He should have used a 15amp breaker with that 14. He cant be much of an electrician if he is running romex inside pipe insulation. period.

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Its not Romex/NM-b. look at the pic again

 

[American Locomotive]

Are you sure that is 120v wiring? Looks like low volt doorbell, alarm, or thermostat wiring. Its definitely not NM-b aka Romex

Its not Romex/NM-b. look at the pic again

Look at the pic again, there's clearly a piece of charred NM-b tucked up against the pipe.

FWIW, I don't think there is any way you're going to get a hot water pipe hot enough to char the insulation on romex, even if it was older 60 degree rated wire. Maybe get it soft and melty, but charred? I think there was another conditioning happening at the same time to make that happen, maybe an overload condition (oversized breaker) or the wire is compromised.

 

[walrus]

Its not Romex/NM-b. look at the pic again

Yeah, I can see the twisted pair but look inside the pipe insulation, you can see the so called scorch mark on the romex.

 

[AntonLargiader]

The 14/3 connected to 2 breaker poles is a multi-wire branch circuit. totally legal only thing wrong with it is the breaker shouldve been 15a not 20a

Well, he did say "two separate breakers" not a double breaker.

 

[Muggzy]

moved to electrical section

Thanks!

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[walrus]

Well, he did say "two separate breakers" not a double breaker.

2 separate breakers was legal at one time, can't remember when it changed but not that long ago.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Look at the pic again, there's clearly a piece of charred NM-b tucked up against the pipe.

FWIW, I don't think there is any way you're going to get a hot water pipe hot enough to char the insulation on romex, even if it was older 60 degree rated wire. Maybe get it soft and melty, but charred? I think there was another conditioning happening at the same time to make that happen, maybe an overload condition (oversized breaker) or the wire is compromised.

yeah, I can see the twisted pair but look inside the pipe insulation, you can see the so called scorch mark on the romex.

aww i totally missed that thanks.

no way would a hot water pipe cause charing like that. must've been an open flame...

Well, he did say "two separate breakers" not a double breaker.

2 separate handle-tied breakers meets the code requirement so....

 

[Muggzy]

This thread has turned into two seperate issues:
1 - the "scorched wire AC" & the twisted pair as I've come to discover, weren't scorched, but discolored due to some interaction with the paper backing on the fiberglass batting. I've also rerouted the AC wire to get it apart from the hot water pipe.
2 - the multiwire branch circuit was 14/3 on two seperate 20 amp breakers that weren't even adjacent to each other, let alone mechanically tied. They're now 15 amp breakers in adjacent positions (still not tied, but I'll get to that).

I want to thank you all for your helpful advice

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[wyliesdiesels]

This thread has turned into two seperate issues:
1 - the "scorched wire AC" & the twisted pair as I've come to discover, weren't scorched, but discolored due to some interaction with the paper backing on the fiberglass batting. I've also rerouted the AC wire to get it apart from the hot water pipe.
2 - the multiwire branch circuit was 14/3 on two seperate 20 amp breakers that weren't even adjacent to each other, let alone mechanically tied. They're now 15 amp breakers in adjacent positions (still not tied, but I'll get to that).

I want to thank you all for your helpful advice

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Thats a good way to overload the neutral and burn it up.