Residential power dist panel

[rocky1]

Was looking at the panel and noticed the neutral/ground bar is full. Thinking about adding and extension and moving the equipment grounds. Wondering if I would be better of replacing the panel or adding a sub. The meter used to be on the outside wall before I added the garage. Now it is inside the new garage addition and comes into this panel on the bottom left. I see there are bottom feed panels available which could clean this mess up.


http://s51.photobucket.com/user/billbucket/library/fusebx

Thanks for your opinions

 

[Aceman]

That looks like an old Sq D panel to me. The breakers aren't even the modern visi-trip style with the orange tripped indicator.

Since it's an older panel, I'd be inclined to change it to a full 40 space Sq D QO panel rather than adding a sub to it.

EDIT: On second look, is it a GE or Crouse panel? I can't tell. If it's either of those two, then I would definitely replace it.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Replace it.

 

[brewchief]

Replace it


It looks to be an old GE panel if blow the pic up.

 

[alfredeneuman]

It's a GE panel.
The breakers in it are them same as those produced today.
There should be no need to replace the panel.

Just install a ground bar and move the ground wires there.
There are even screw holes on the side opposite the neutral bar for this purpose.

 

[justsam]

What is it you are desiring to accomplish? There is nothing wrong with the existing panel. As others have stated add an additional ground bar if you feel so compelled. Are you desiring to add additional circuits?

 

[alfredeneuman]

There is still room for 2 full size breakers and one half space breaker, or 5 half space breakers in that panel.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

What a rats nest!!! I think GE usually allows at least two, if not three grounds per hole in the bar. The placard on the panel (usually inside the door) will list the torque for the screws, for one (1) ground wire and (2) or (3) ground wires. Read it closely to interpret this but you can combine ground to get additional room in the bars for neutrals. I recently had to do this in my old Square D panel to get a couple of holes freed up in the bar.

It seems that all of the older panels had those "bleacher seat" style tiered ground/neutral bars. I hate those things!!!

Placard found in my Siemens panel in the shop.

 

[Stuff]

Check the label. You have grounds on their own and most of the time you can double them up.

 

[rocky1]

I was thinking about putting in some arc faults. That is when I noticed I had no spare neutrals. It would have been a much cleaner install if they used a bottom feed panel. It is a GE tm2020. 40 spaces. 200 amps. House is total electric. There is no immediate need for a sub panel, but if I have to pay an electrician to come out, I would like to get the most value out of it.
Thanks for all the replies.

 

[rocky1]

The add on equipment ground bar is screwed to the case. Do I need to also wire it to the existing neutral bus ? If so, is the a wire size requirement ?

Thanks

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

That looks like an old Sq D panel to me. The breakers aren't even the modern visi-trip style with the orange tripped indicator.

Since it's an older panel, I'd be inclined to change it to a full 40 space Sq D QO panel rather than adding a sub to it.

EDIT: On second look, is it a GE or Crouse panel? I can't tell. If it's either of those two, then I would definitely replace it.

That's an old ge panel.Big freaking mess you've got in there,check the neutral bar behind the front one for more space.

 

[rocky1]

I plan on cleaning it up. I am installing the new equipment ground bar to the right of the main disconnect

 

[rocky1]

Found it. 4 awg must be used to connect back to the neutral. Even though I am planning on filling it with the equipment grounds, someone in the future may use it as neutral

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That looks like an old Sq D panel to me. The breakers aren't even the modern visi-trip style with the orange tripped indicator.

Since it's an older panel, I'd be inclined to change it to a full 40 space Sq D QO panel rather than adding a sub to it.

EDIT: On second look, is it a GE or Crouse panel? I can't tell. If it's either of those two, then I would definitely replace it.

I understand crouse is garbage, I have had to deal with melted crouse breakers before.

But what is wrong with GE panels?

 

[rocky1]

Received the following quote
Ground bar installation and move grounds- $345.00
Replace panel, new breakers, whole house surge $1600.00

I can install the ground bar
Probably wouldn't do the panel myself.
I the panel quote reasonable ?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

WOW! $345 for the ground bar?

Is both prices reasonable? No way to know unless u get another quote because prives vary widely from area to area. I would shop around!

 

[rocky1]

I thought that was high also.
I will have to call them. I do not know the make of the panel or if they are going to bring it up to code with gfci and arc breakers.

 

[bgeery]

Is your service panel the main disconnect or do you have a separate main disconnect? Changing a panel is simple, repetitive work; assuming you have a separate main disconnect to kill the power first. Get a quote for adding a separate main disconnect, then change out the panel yourself.

 

[rocky1]

The ground bar is slightly too long for the mounting holes in the box. This is odd because the part number matches what is on the door panel as an accessory. The meter is directly behind the panel on what was the outside wall. No real room for a disconnect. Awaiting info from electrician as to what type parts they use.
What panels do y'all ?

No info on label as to doubling up grounds

 

[Mustang51js]

Just a FYI, I would charge $800 for a 200 amp panel replace,it only takes about 2-3 hours and $200 or so in materials

 

[Mustang51js]

I normally use square d homeline unless customer wants something different. And that's an easy replacement because it's all romex wire coming in,if you just want to add a ground bar,drill the holes yourself and install with screws that come with the ground bar

 

[rocky1]

I probably need a permit and take a quiz to be able to do the work. Electric co has not responded as to the details. Basically panel change out 1500.00. I am going to call around tomorrow for more estimates. I could do the work. Pulling meter would be the hard part( and getting them to retag it)

 

[Mustang51js]

Is there a meter lock on the meter,if not just open it up and pull the meter,then put it back in when done

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is there a meter lock on the meter,if not just open it up and pull the meter,then put it back in when done

Youre not 'suppose' to do that but I have HAD to do it when the PoCo doesnt show up or is late and im on a schedule. Owners coming back at certain time and need their power on!

OP what about getting an owner builder permit? Can u get those in your neck of the woods?

 

[Mustang51js]

Youre not 'suppose' to do that but I have HAD to do it when the PoCo doesnt show up or is late and im on a schedule. Owners coming back at certain time and need their power on!

OP what about getting an owner builder permit? Can u get those in your neck of the woods?

I do it all the time,if I had to wait for poco here I would never get anything done. Maybe as a homeowner they don't want you doing it ,but when I do a service change I am the one that disconnects power and reconnects it to the house,the poco doesn't even change the wire from the street anymore if you do a service upgrade up to 200 amps

 

[rocky1]

No lock, but it is a AMR (wireless) read meter. Power company will know it it out. I will check into the permit requirements to DIY. I may just install a ground bar and move the uninsulated's. I may be looking for a problem where none exists.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I do it all the time,if I had to wait for poco here I would never get anything done. Maybe as a homeowner they don't want you doing it ,but when I do a service change I am the one that disconnects power and reconnects it to the house,the poco doesn't even change the wire from the street anymore if you do a service upgrade up to 200 amps

I do it as well, but again youre not suppose to.

And i have never seen a PoCo change the service deop when going from 100a-200a...

No lock, but it is a AMR (wireless) read meter. Power company will know it it out. I will check into the permit requirements to DIY. I may just install a ground bar and move the uninsulated's. I may be looking for a problem where none exists.

Ive pulled smart meters before and the PoCo never came out or cared!

 

[sberry]

There are some holes a bar could be screwed to but,,, why fool with it unless you have to? It wont work better. If I had to double a couple grounds for new needs.