Residential remodel wiring methods & materials, do's & don't samples. Mtw

[MTW]

In an earlier thread about CONDUIT , posters were discussing the preferences and merits of when to use conduit (EMT) in their projects. The pro's and cons, when to use it and when it's overkill, costs and benefits, skill levels and tooling. The original posters question didn't start with what type of structure was really in question, and the thread wandered from garages and houses to 2500A industrial services. So I got to thinking about the thread, the electrical forum and many of the posters here, asking the same type questions repeatedly, how to wire or mount something.

And the answer usually really “depends” on circumstances involved, no two are usually the same, especially when it comes to rehab work.

Location, property type, climate, intended use, existing conditions, NEC, regional codes, utility co rules, AHJ interpretation, local code amendments, engineering specifications, customer type, time schedule, local available materials, skill level of the installer, available tooling, weather conditions, before you even mention the budget....So you can see why it “depends” and that virtually every case is usually different.

I don't start many threads here, but I thought one that applies to residential property electrical remodeling, rehab and installation methods and materials would be appropriate, maybe as a sticky, if the moderator here sees fit. I'm a licensed sparky and don't do much residential work so my photo collection of residential work is limited. My thinking is that a annotated picture thread, a slide show, if you will, of the METHODS & MATERIALS, DO'S & DONT'S would be a great resource for do it yourself folks here, and into the future. Because most people do better with a visual lesson than a resuscitation of the relevant code section and it's interpretation. I learned a long time ago from an excellent mentor, also a local AHJ, that the “intent” of the code is really the issue, not the code verbiage itself. If you learn about why the rule was created , it's history and the issues it solves or protects against, then the verbiage is just that

I would like to ask contributors to the thread, to make your slide show have before and after slides, or just after if there was no before. It will take a bit of work compiling, composing, uploading and posting a good thread, but the participants to the forum, especially the lurkers, should benefit immensity, if done correctly.

MTW Ω

 

[MTW]

I'll start it off with a project from a few years back with some dear friends, rehabbing an old hunting cabin from the 30's that has been “remodeled” and added to many times over the years. It originally was a one room structure, with a masonry chimney sitting on the floor in the middle of the room, caving it it. The original interior wall finishes were news papers, tar paper, and linoleum paper only in the sink area, 8” ship-lap southern pine siding plank's on the outside. Think great depression time, things were scarce then.

In the 85 years since then, it's been butcher'ed many times by many owners and occupants. So it makes it an excellent case example of, how varied, and what the best solution is, for a difficult situation, that is compliant with the various rules, regulations and the local AHJ.

Let me start with the dear friends. Always when doing any electrical work, remember that the NEC is based on protecting LIFE and property. Do your work so it protects the one's you love first, rules and budget second.

Getting to work with friends on a community project also makes a difficult project more bearable, especially on a tight budget. Would you think that cutting reinforcing blocks, could be that much fun? Care about what you do and who your doing it for. Those are the valuable things in life... To my late great friend Jimmy, I miss you buddy...

This is the project specimen. Not all the additions are shown. The Right section is the original room. Left of the small boxed out window on the right, was the old service. Behind the A ladder is the new service.

If you look closely, you'll see actually 2 services from the old meter can. One SE (service entrance) cable out the top into the kitchen cabinets, second, is the pullout disconnect next to the meter, feeding PVC conduit across the bottom of the house to the other end, to the second sub panel. Above the pullout disconnect you see a homemade wiring trough, made from siding materials, concealing most of the structures branch circuits consisting of NM-B (non metallic sheathed cable) or romex. The remainder of them were just run under the layers of siding, more on that later. There are 4 layers of siding of various types on this original section. 2) layers of 1” ship-lap siding, one 1” layer of asphalt impregnated fiber board, brick textured, then finally a layer of 1” foam board with metal siding covering. Re-modelers it's seems, just cover everything up with another layer, fast and easy. The window bumped out in a deep extension box, is an indication of the walls depth. The left section of the structure only has 1” foam board and vinyl siding, hardly the thing you want to bolt an electric service to.

The numerous problems with the installation are:
More than 1 service disconnect per structure. The disconnects are not grouped together, one outside and one inside. Not easy for a fireman to disconnect all power sources from one location, other than cutting off the service drop. Also would make a legal generator hookup a serious problem, if that were required.

The homemade exterior wiring trough full of NM-B is a problem. Not rated for exterior raceway, and NM-B is not an outdoor wiring method. There is no removable cover on the wiring trough, just a custom bent and flanged piece of coil stock, woven in to the last layer of siding. The other existing branch circuit cables, run under and between, the 4 layers of siding is bad too, easily penetrated by a siding nail, staple or screw.

The left side addition as mentioned earlier, has no structural support for the service riser or meter can, and it's the only nearby space available to move the service to, to get the main panel out of the kitchen cabinets. And further complicating matters, right behind where the new service mast is, there is a stud space that is occupied with a vertical PVC vent pipe.

The service equipment is not supposed to be within 3' of a window, for emergency fire egress out the window. The old location was not compliant, and neither is the the new one. This is one of those exceptions to following the rules for the given situation, and to follow the “intent” as much as possible. With the given building layout and overhead service drop location, the rules were bent, putting the service where it is now, too close to the picture window. The AHJ had no problem with it based on the conditions at the site. Not ideal but best it can be, given the circumstances, closest you could get to the “intent” of keeping safe fire exit space around windows. Again don't cut corners when others safety is at risk. It also could be you crawling out that window during a fire at night, grabbing a live service cable to steady yourself would be a very bad thing.

Lastly the meter can was raised a little higher than the utility co rules want. Again a little rule bending for safety. Raise it up, so it provides better free climbing space out that window and down. The utility has little problem servicing or reading the meter, higher than they want it, but safer for the occupant. Compromising to try meet the intent of the rules, if not the letter of them, and obtain a safe and workable solution.

One last problem not shown in the photo was the height clearance of the original service drop. If one was standing on the entry porch, the drop was less than the required 10' from touching it. Especially bad right over the top of the entry door. Raising the service mast location and drop attachment point, higher gave plenty of clearance and safety for people moving materials and furnishings in and out of the structure. It wasn't easy figuring out how to make a sturdy mast that could support the drop during an ice and wind storm then attach it to a foam and plastic sided wall. But you do what you need to, to protect people's life safety and well being, that's the “intent”.

Here's the interior situation and solution. Only two stud bays available, all other space was occupied by the mechanical equipment and window. Then one stud bay is already occupied with a DWV vent pipe, and no other wall to move it to without some serious DWV rework. In a underfloor space with no access without removing the mechanical equipment and then the floor.

The solution was to fabricate an adequate support around the DWV pipe to support the meter and mast. Before you could do that, the first stud in the bay left of the window need to be moved over a few inches to accommodate the panel width, in the first stud bay from the window. Had to cut the nails into the stud from the PVC siding as well as the bottom and top plate to free it up. Moved it over before blocking could begin.

The blocking was carefully cut and notched, then installed with galvanized deck screws for strength. Notice also the blocks added for strapping the cables and conduits to. 3/8 threaded rod was used for the thru bolts. Double nuts (both sides) used on the blocking, then double nuts on the meter and the mast support. This was required in order to prevent crushing the PVC siding and foam sheathing when tightening down the mast anchors. Surely not your run of the mill service change, but having a table saw on site made it a bit easier on the fitup. The strength is good, especially with the thru the roof flange plate combined with a 2” rigid conduit mast. It's been wind and ice storm tested a few times now and all is well. Again it's bending the utility's rules on how they require a mast support to be done, but it's as best as it can be, under the conditions. Again meeting the “intent” of a strong sturdy mast support for reliable safe use.

The top photo, of the branch circuit wiring, made up of cables and conduit methods was what got me going on this thread. I was looking for it, for the other thread shown above on conduits benefits and detraction’s as compared to cables. Here both methods were used, because the situation on the ground determined what was best. Cables were used for most new circuits, as that is cost effective and easier to install in an attic or crawl space. Conduits with multiple circuits were used in re-feeding existing old circuits that weren't long enough to reach the new service location, and also to provide some spare circuit capacity for other parts of the home in the future, if required. It was easier and quicker using conduit than trying to run multiple cables in a restricted attic space.

 

[MTW]

Here's the attic boxes fed with conduit and then spliced to cables. Notice the installed ground bars to terminate all of the cable grounds on individually. Look at the deep hole where the conduit is installed. Much less work to get back there once for a pipe install, than many times for pulling or splicing individual cables. The longer run was to supply the addition on the left of the house, where the old sub-panel was located. The sub-panel could have been re-fed with a feeder and a main installed in it. But then, the AHJ bent the rules, and said he wanted the sub-panel removed with only one panel in the structure. Sub-panels aren't against the rules technically, but I agree with him. There really is no need for a 6 circuit panel stuffed in a corner at the opposite end of the house. Again fulfilling the “intent” of safely grouping service disconnects and panels at the main point of distribution. Even though there is no restriction against a sub-panel in the verbiage of the rules. The right thing to do just makes good sense, not necessarily written down in a rule. Provides for some extra capacity in the future, if required. Eliminating the need for future butchering by future remodelers. Spare circuits are readily available in accessible locations.

Here is where the small sub-panel was located. Take a look at the circuit routing. Just goes to show that the AHJ was right, even before opening it up, to have a look-see. Needed to eliminate all butcher work from the property for safety. Once this was corrected, then the fugly PVC feeder conduit could be eliminated, running across the front of the building, through the porch and into the addition wall. Don't those cables look a whole lot safer in the attic structure than stuffed behind the siding where they resided earlier. Their a whole lot easier to service when required or to make additions.

Jumping back across to the building to the old service panel location in the kitchen cabinets, also illegal and a ***** to work on. You can see that an outside wall stud was notched away to make room for a larger 12 circuit panel, when the original 2 fuse panel was replaced years ago. Then notice the cables exiting the structure wall, to head for the makeshift exterior wireway. The upper group was the ones in the wireway chase. The ones in the bottom hole were the ones in between layers of external siding. Only two circuits ran into the structure as normally would be done, likely the originals from the first two circuit fuse panel when built in the 30's.

That's all the time I have today, I'll try to reserve some post space to continue the story later when time allows.

And in the mean time some of you other active posters may be able to make a like contribution of residential Materials and Methods, Do's and Dont's. Please try to show a sideshow format of before and after for the educational experience.

MTW Ω

 

[MTW]

Back outside, the trench for the grounding electrode conductor and 2 made electrodes. Better known as the earth ground wire and ground rods. I don't have a photo of the earth ground wiring completed to show before it got sleeved and buried.

Take note that the rods are near the downspout conductor, good for keeping the soil moist, and a low resistance connection to mother earth. Also note that the footing flash spillover was chipped away from the foundation to provide a clear path for the electrode conductor. The conductor was covered above and below ground with some PVC conduit to protect it from gardeners and weed whippers. The rods are also spaced apart near equal to their 8' length, which makes for a better connection with the earth. The code says 6' minimum I go 8' or more when conditions permit. It's a situation where more is better. The depth of the trench is sufficient enough to hide it from prolific flower potters. It's a very bad thing to have your lighting dissipation rod cut off without your knowledge by the local gardener.

Couple more points about installing the made electrodes (rods). Most folks use a sledge hammer on a ladder to drive the rods, or a ground rod driver if you have one. An easier and cheaper method is to use a bottle of water. Did you notice the milk jug in the photo? That's what I use, way easier and faster. Poke the rod into the soil as far as you can. Withdraw it and pour a cup of water in it's hole. Put the rod back in and now work it some more in the hole, until it won't go in any further. Pull out and repeat, sound familiar? Yep it works the same way. Keep going till you get near the top of the trench. At which point you can switch to the rod driver or the big hammer to finish it off below the grade surface. If you look both rods are in and the jug still has some lube left in it! Doesn't usually take much.

This was another area the AHJ had an issue with. The rules call for a way to bond the communication circuits to that electrode conductor. And I covered it completely with dirt and PVC conduit to protect it from damage. Once I explained that the communication services entered the house on the rear side of the building, he had no issue with me adding an additional electrode conductor, from the loadcenter ground bus, through the crawl space to the rear where the other services entered. At the back of the structure an insulated cover grounding bar was installed for the remote communications entrances. Again another bending of the rules to meet the “intent” of, all services of any type entering the structure connected to the same grounding electrode system. The water service was relocated into the mechanical room, so naturally it received an electrode bonding conductor as well, sized for the 200A service.

MTW Ω

 

[checkthisout]

Only one of your photos shows up. The others are "x's"

 

[MTW]

Backing up a bit, a few shots of the existing service loadcenter.

This is in the kitchen, was inside the cabinets. This is what the notched stud was for.
In the upper right corner you can see the cables exiting the back heading for the outdoor wireway. There isn't one cable connector on the entire panel, including the SE cable. Reminds me of a saying I hear "Good enough for these people" Working through the cabinets, it sure would be difficult to slip in a new panel, especially if you need to slice a stud down it's length to get it in.

Couple more shots of the new panel rough-in, then well move on from the service.

This one is under the floor where the mechanical equipment resides. Shows the new runs into the crawl space for the A/C condenser, furnace, heat tape, crawl space lights, grounding electrode conductor to the water service, etc. Way easier to get them in now because it's unaccessible once the floor is in.

And this one of the new loadcenter, halfway loaded up.

Couple of pointers here. Notice 2 additional ground bars on each side of the enclosure. Since this is the service panel a separate ground bar isn't required. But I like to add one on each side and keep them separate from the neutral connections, just like required in a subpanel.

Bare ground wires running around the panel can be hazardous if one of them happens to touch the line terminals or exposed bus. I've had it happen while stripping romex in a new panel. It's a major arc flash in your face, then your left in the dark after the main trips if your lucky.

So I like to keep the grounds and connection bar high, and drop off those bare ones as soon as possible after they enter the enclosure. The wiring gutters get full enough without the ground wires running down them too, You can see the green main bonding screw installed between the neutral buss and the enclosure.

Another practice I like to do is fill up the most restricted area of the panel first. It's a little harder and slower going than taking the easy route, but it leaves the more accessible areas open for future additions. This same thing applies to where the wiring enters the enclosure. If you take up all of the easy knockouts on the install, then later you may have a problem fitting in another conduit or cable connector.

Couple of thoughts here while deciding on where to to place circuits.

A backup generator hook-up in the future would require 2 pole spaces at the top of the panel to use a mechanical interlock kit with the main breaker.

Avoid putting larger and heavier loaded breakers opposite each other on the panel bus stab. That bus stab has a maximum rating and it may overheat if too much load is placed on it. Aluminum bus panels are more prone to this than copper. The "intent" here is to spread the heat out so it can dissipate preventing damage. I've had this happen with 2) 50A 3P units facing each other, and continuously loaded with 26A. New aluminum bus panel and breakers failed within 60 days. Manufacturer replaced it and said to observe the bus stab ratings, Lesson learned. Best if you can arrange it, is to place all the heavy loads down one side, and the lighter loads on the opposite side.

Most residential panels have lots of small knockout's closely spaced and trying to fill every one of them with a NM-B connector can be a nightmare. Usually the clamp screws will interfere with the connectors next to them. The approach I like, is to punch out a larger hole over several of the smaller ones, and then use "Tomic's" connectors of a larger size. You can fit many more cables in less area that way. Don't fill each "Tomic" to capacity, if you leave some room in each one, adding a few cables later will only require loosing the screws a bit to slip in another, versus trying to punch another knock out hole and install another small connector in an already overcrowded top plate.

One thing to be aware of and avoid though, using this method, is not to bundle the cables all together. Even though their going through the same connector. The code demands that the cables ampacity be derated (reduced) when the cables are bundled together for more than 24". Just fan them out a little after they exit the panel. The "intent" here is a bunch of conductors closely bundled will build up excessive heat when loaded and not be able to dissipate it properly. The blocks installed above and below the panel bay gives you the required space to fan things out a bit.

And lastly notice the the service entrance conductor are also split between the two sides. It helps with congestion and heat dissipation. I try keeping them out of the corners of the gutter to avoid interfering with fittings that may need to enter the sides and terminating wires on the ground bars.

MTW Ω

 

[MTW]

Branch wiring downstream of the service and alterations.

Like I mentioned earlier this specimen had multiple layers of sheathing and the inside wasn't much better, drywall 3 layers deep in some places, flooring 4 layers. So I think some cutting and patching will be necessary. My method of cutting and patching is a little different than you normally see. Maybe you noticed it in the earlier photos? It's in most of them.

When I cut something open for access I take more of a surgical approach than most. I snicker at the TV when I see rehab projects start with hammers and piles of rubble right at the start of the project. A giant dusty pile of rubble isn't easily picked up, carried out and disposed of without a bunch of extra work and something store it in. Looks good for TV but makes a hell of a mess and consumes a lot of storage space till it can be disposed of.

What I do is this: err umm have a helper do it
Cut it up into manageable sized chunks, and removed as full chunks. Easier to transport, stack, store, pack in dumpster. Less overall mess and more productive. 2 layers of dry wall on this side of the wall, and 3 on the opposite side.

Looks like this switch could use some longer screws.
And That GFI Cover is wood so part of it could be easily cut off to fit.

But the light box needs even more attention,

Maybe the switch does too. A tack or two?

Ahh the switch isn't the problem.
I Think it's the wall itself doing strange things.
Nothing wrong with installing a larger recessed medicine chest right?
No problem, chop the hole, slide the wires over and stick it in right?
" Good enough for these people" or "get er done today" comes to mind.

Well go figure, project management wants an even bigger hole for the medicine cabinet and a bigger vanity to go with it. How we gonna stuff all that in there, when the old hole wasn't big enough? Now what to do with that errant light switch? Pack it in carefully.

Better make sure you got room for the door trim right? Need to shim the box away from the door opening for the trim then.
Oh we need an outlet in the base cabinet too? Dam battery tools need a charger...

Well I think I got it stuffed in tight enough to just fit.
A little creativity, a few shims, and some careful measuring and the door trim should just fit. Using 4" deep boxes for the GFCI and switches, with plaster rings to match.

 

[MTW]

Getting back to the cutting and patching methods.
Did you notice the method in the previous photos?

Again my method is more time consuming initially, but usually results in better finished results, less damage for the customer to repair after your done, and lower project overall cost. The customer is happier and doesn't have to hire a bunch of other contractors to come behind you to repair the damaged caused by the rip and tear methods.

In rehab work especially old structures, sometimes it's hard to find locally, patching materials that match exactly the thickness of the materials removed. Say like 1" siding, 5/8" drywall or plywood, or old 2 by materials that were closer in size to their name than you find at the lumberyard today. To avoid shimming or filling areas to match the difference in depth of newer materials, I find it best to just reuse the existing materials whenever possible.

That requires the more surgical approach of removing the old materials with the intent of reinstalling them after the work is done. Don't bust it out with a hammer and prybar, carefully mark it out, then carefully cut along the layout lines, remove the filler and save for re-installation. A reciprocating saw with the blade turned around backward in the holder is the tool of choice here for standard building materials.

If you look at the previous photos, you will see that every opened section of wall or flooring has been cleanly cut open, directly on the center line of the supporting structural member. In this way, the removed materials can be secured back in the hole, provided that you removed them without busting them up. If you have construction materials that are readily available for replacement, saving the old piece may be less important. But cutting the first time along the centerline of the structural member still makes it pre-prepared for installing the patch without further work by you or others, other than removing the old fastners.

Here's an example of the method. We needed to have a more accessible way to get in the crawl space. The existing opening was at the wrong end of the structure from where the majority of the work needed to occur. The crawl space was full of debris, bricks, blocks, sticks of 3"cast iron drain and we needed to clean it out. A lot of work needed to happen down there by several trades, structural, mechanical, plumbing, electrical. Cutting the hole in the kitchen floor, adjacent to the building addition line was deemed best. But the floor had 4 layers of finishes along with the 1" plank subfloor. The finished layers were going to be eventually removed, but the plank subfloor was of a thickness not commonly available, so it was saved for replacement.

Crawl spaces can be a difficult place to work, you never know what your going to encounter down there.

But it's tolerable when there is willing helpers to share the load.

One of two loads removed from the hole.

We had some fun joking about this find.

To lay out the cut lines on the floor we went down below and used a long 1/8" pilot (aircraft drill) bit to mark the spot to be cut. Selecting the void space we wanted to use, and also marking the spots where the planking seams were to remove full sections. Then it's a simple matter to measure over for half the structural members thickness, for the actual cut line. The circular saw was set to the proper depth and the major amount of cutting was done, a thin style remodeling blade helps a lot here. The corners were then cut free (cleaned out) with the reversed reciprocating saw blade as mentioned earlier.

When doing the layout for drywall cuts you need to be conscious of utilities that may be in the walls. You don't want to hack into a romex that needs to remain, causing major grief to replace. The procedure here, to find the studs, is to begin with a stud finder if you have one. Old fashion methods work too, tapping for sound, nail or screw test. Mark the rough location of the stud locations. Determine how long you want the cut to be, the length of the opening. At the point where you want the end cuts to be, use a level for a straight edge, and mark the cut line. Using a drywall hand saw, a keyhole saw, or a reciprocating saw layed down near parallel with the surface, so that the blade doesn't protrude into the cavity beyond the wallboard thickness, carefully make the cut. When approaching the studs with the cut, go slowly and then turn the cutting blade perpendicular to the wall surface (90°). Saw carefully until you feel the blade touch the stud, then stop. This point marks the edge of the stud. Measure over for one half the width of the stud and mark the center of the stud. Repeat for the other corner marks. Then using a level, scribe a pencil line between the points for the center of the stud. Cut with the reciprocating down the stud line. Clean the corners out with a utility knife before trying to remove the patch. It may seem a bit too hard or time consuming for this, but with a little practice it becomes old hat. Done with care, you can usually just reininstall the removed piece as the patch. Saves going to get a full new sheet to cut a patch piece from. Just needs a little mud and tape in preparation for a final finish.

Here's another sample. This doorway box had a small 2 gang gem box with switches for an outside light and the room light. We needed to add wiring for a 3way switch for the room light, across the room, and also get unswitched power source for a ceiling fan box. The box was already packed with wiring, so it needed to be enlarged for our additional conductors. Being it's an outside wall, with the rafters tails ending atop this wall. We needed to drill the top plate from below for the new cables. This meant that the cutout had to be long enough to fit the drill motor and ship auger in the cavity to drill up.

Before the cutout.

After the cutout.

A 4 11/16" x 2 1/8" deep box with plaster ring added for the additional wiring fill room, for the added conductors.

Modification completed and the removed insulation replaced in the opening, ready for the drywall patch to be installed and taped. Notice that the door trim remained undisturbed.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

That metal j box right up against the roof really scares me.

 

[MTW]

That metal j box right up against the roof really scares me.

Look closer, there is a minimum of 2" in there, it's a little hard to make out in the poor lighting conditions. Plenty for some roofing nails, and strong enough to resist an errant one. It's a 6" deep box and some 10" rafters.

MTW Ω

 

[MTW]

One last example of unusual installation requirements of old structures and the worked out solution.

The original one room structure's walls had many layers inside and outside as mentioned previously. Where the central addition joined the old structure, the old outside wall had been partially cut away and a long header was installed to open up much of the space, to be continuous. Some electrical work needed to be installed in the remaining portions of this wall.

The mate to the 3way switch addition shown in the earlier example needed to be installed, as well as some additional outlet boxes. Both in the kitchen area and the living room area. One side of the wall had the 2 layers of 1" shiplap siding with a layer of drywall as a topcoat, and the kitchen portion had 2 layers of drywall and deeper than normal depth studs. So adding boxes to this construction posed some issues. The problems were that the wall materials were thicker than the depth of normal boxes, so that the knock-outs would be covered up by the materials. And in the kitchen the studs were set back from the finished surface by shim strips to compensate for the layers of drywall on the adjoing header section that was left intact. Similar problem as above, the boxes needed to be secured to the main stud quite aways back from the finished surface. Finding very deep plaster rings of the required depth was doubtful. It was decided to use standard depth plaster rings and extension boxes instead. But that meant that the cutouts that were required were going to be a little different from the norm.

Here' the living room side that needed the cut in's.

The switch box front side. Notice that the box is 2 boxes deep with the extension box.

The switch box rear side. With wires pulled.
Notice that the cutout is just large enough to pull the wires, screw on the box, and fit a roto zip cutting tool through to cut through the two layers of shiplap siding. A 4" box and an extesion box were used along with the plaster ring.

Here's the backside of the outlet box, for a better visual of the process.
Notice the saved drywall cutouts for patching behind the switch box install.

And here is the switch box being terminated.

And the finished install from the backside, ready to reinstall the patches.

And here is the finished patch of the backside, shown before, but I bet you never noticed it.

On the kitchen side with the spacers on the studs a similar method was used but a little bit easier access was available for this one. The drywall on the right side is two layers, necessitating the deep construction of the wall section to match. Shown before the stud shims were installed.

Ready for shims and drywall.

Finishing up a few more photos.

Kitchen wall with some drywall and mud, looks pretty typical.

Same wall with some paint.

Cabinets going in.

Switch box patched area.
Notice the layers of flooring coming out in full chunks, like I mentioned earlier for the walls.

Bath wall painted.

Water meter grounding electrode conductor bonding jumper.

New circuits from the top of the service panel. Notice the cables fanned out and the tomic connector is ready to receive a few more cables in the future if needed, same goes for the hole drilled in the top plate, future proofing.

And a for a finally, Bambi showed up for the final inspection, all was approved.

I hope that the readers can gain some insight from the things presented here.

Please submit your slideshow and comments, to further enhance the knowledge to be gained in the forum. Please contribute. Thanks

MTW Ω

 

[justsam]

Thanks MTW for taking the time to explain the what, why, and how of the project!

I have done some work on my sons 1922 home in Long Beach, and have encountered some of the challenges you mentioned here. Nothing I have done has been nearly as extensive as you have described here, but he has a whole list of future projects.

I am not an electrician, my experience and education is more in the wireless world, so can contribute little to the intent of this thread. Anything below 2 GHz is DC to me!

Again, thanks for sharing how it should be done.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Look closer, there is a minimum of 2" in there, it's a little hard to make out in the poor lighting conditions. Plenty for some roofing nails, and strong enough to resist an errant one. It's a 6" deep box and some 10" rafters.

MTW Ω

Couldnt tell from glancing at 1st picture.
So whos the apprentice?

 

[Norcal]

You used 1/2" rings, should have used 5/8" that way they sit flush with the finished surface.

 

[MTW]

Sizing plaster rings or requirements concerning boxes set back form the finished surface.

The "intent" here is to prevent any arcing, sparking or burning from inside the box, reaching any combustible materials that surrounds the enclosure, or getting into the wall structure. Makes sense right?

The code actually calls out different dimensions depending on conditions, as usual the conditions matter.

In the case of panelboards and switchboards it specifies the gap to be limited to 1/8".
For general use boxes installed in noncombustible materials the gap is to be limited to 1/4".
For boxes installed wood or combustible material there is to be no gap, the box must protrude past the combustible surface.

In the case of the the plaster ring used above, within 1/4" meets the veribage of the rule.

In the case that Norcal presented above is correct, you want it as close and tight to the finished surface as you can get it, to meet the "intent". It also makes a more secure, easier, reliable, sturdier device mounting.

For me, I'm a little on the compulsive side when it comes to precision and the best finished results obtainable with the given facts on the ground. Remember the beginning rule, was to protect and serve best, the ones your doing this for.

High quality craftsmanship and skill level are the main requirements for achieving a superb finished result. You have to care about what your doing first, be thinking and paying attention second, and use quality methods and materials third.

In the case I presented here, I mentioned parts of the structure were 85 years old. That wood is rock hard, very resinous wood. It is so soaked with resin, that it smells up the room for days after you cut it. The helpers on the job were saving the hole saw slugs for air deodorizers, that's how much they smelled.

That's why we used steel bracket boxes and deck screws on all the work. Nails were out of the question, unless pre-drilled first. We had to do that for the structural work and blocking. Regular black drywall screws would snap off trying seat them. So quality screws and boxes were the go to choice.

The plaster rings chosen for use with 1/2 drywall, were the 5/8" size as Norcal suggested earlier. I made sure to measure them at the box store, because they always get mixed up on the shelves. I like to set my boxes, that use plaster rings, slightly back from the stud face. If the box face is exactly flush with the face of the stud, then the 8-32 cover screw heads will protrude slightly about 1/8".

This can prevent the drywall from seating tight to the stud around the box. If you pull the drywall tight with screws, the back of the drywall will then push on those cover screw heads that are protruding. This will cause stress on the wallboard and the box mounting. The drywall can crack if it is in narrow sections, like it is, going around that flush mount bathroom vanity and nearby door opening. The other thing the interference fit does is push back on the box, causing it to hinge on its mounting bracket. This results in the box being angled with respect to the surface.

One method some use, is to use construction adhesive on the studs. That tends to fill the gap and distribute the stress, but it also leaves the wallboard loose. Metal studs are a little more forgiving because they have more flex.

Personally I dislike adhesive. I like the board to be tight to the structure. Adhesive is a pain to deal with later on, on a rehab. Look at the earlier photos of the service panel and subanel wall area's, full of adhesive, needs to be scraped off, or more added, in order to put the patches in. The old structure had none of that and therefore was much easier to deal with because of it.

My method sets the box back for the cover screw heads. Use the next size up plaster ring 5/8". Layout and cut the wallboard with precision, no binding allowed. Screw wallboard tight to the structure, no adhesive. Then fill the remaining clearance with catalyzed setting type compound "Durabond" in my area. This will cement the box in place, adheres to galvanized boxes and covers, reduces the finished gap to combustibles to 0", provides the best possible, rock hard, noncombustible surface for mounting the devices and plates to. I don't rely on the mudders to do this step, I want it done properly and thoroughly packed, so I take it upon myself, to ensure that it's done the way I like it.

Decora style devices were used on this project and they have the least amount of fudge room when it comes to mounting them and the coverplates, precision matters.

Here's some samples.

Notice the compound in the shot?

Furred out kitchen wall.

And While I was looking for examples.
Another example of removing in chunks.

MTW Ω

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Nice build though i didnt have time to look through it all.

I wonder why it didnt pop up yesterday when I came on the forum.

Boy how i hate unfused service entrances. Wouldve been nice to have a main on the outside.

 

[MTW]

Outdoor mains are a rarity here in my area. Unless it's a multi tenant building.

 

[reader2580]

I bought a trashed foreclosed house built in 1980 last year. It had many of the same electrical issues as the house/cabin in this thread. The original owners added a large addition in 1986 and ran a large conduit up the side of the house and through the attic to a sub panel in the addition. Legal, but ugly as sin. The attic run was removed and the circuits were extended to the main panel (with a legal junction box).

There were so many electrical no-nos that if the homeowner didn't do the electrical then the electrician should lose his/her license. Every electrical issue my father and I could find was fixed except the basement bathroom which will be gutted and then re-wired. Every switch and receptacle in the house was replaced because the receptacles mostly had no tension left.

All of the main service cables coming into the panel were loose and the neutral was damaged. We found an outlet that had a loose wire and was all charred. Also a wire nut not tight enough and was charred. The house probably should have burned due to the electrical issues.

 

[yaidunno]

Great thread. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.

 

[MTW]

A clarification on mudding the plaster rings. Norcal's comments about the plaster rings depth made me think of it.

In the photos it appears that all of the rings are covered with drywall compound. Which would imply by looking, that they are set back from the surface, requiring filling.

What you are seeing is a drywall compound skim coat over the entire wallboard surface, including the plaster rings. Similar to a wet plaster method finish coat.

This was done to achieve a better final surface finish. The areas shown in the photos were going to be finished with high gloss and semi gloss oil enamel for durability and easy cleaning. Un-coated wallboard will telegraph the paper texture versus the mudded sections differently, resulting in splotchy appearance between the different areas.

Oil paint is much thinner and more expensive than latex. We didn't want to use multiple layers of oil primer and finish to cover up the pores in the paper. So we elected to use mud instead, to achieve the uniform finish we were looking for. The skim coat doesn't cost much material and labor wise, and results in a superb finish with gloss topcoats. It also allows you to sand for a smooth finish without roughing up the paper fibers when going from a mudded section to a bare one.

In the end, the result we obtained was beautiful, durable and as low a cost as possible. Minimal primer and paint was used, and the mudder didn't complain after offering him a few more dollars for his time.

MTW Ω

 

[cbogg]

Backing up a bit, a few shots of the existing service loadcenter.

This is in the kitchen, was inside the cabinets. This is what the notched stud was for.
In the upper right corner you can see the cables exiting the back heading for the outdoor wireway. There isn't one cable connector on the entire panel, including the SE cable. Reminds me of a saying I hear "Good enough for these people" Working through the cabinets, it sure would be difficult to slip in a new panel, especially if you need to slice a stud down it's length to get it in.

Couple more shots of the new panel rough-in, then well move on from the service.

This one is under the floor where the mechanical equipment resides. Shows the new runs into the crawl space for the A/C condenser, furnace, heat tape, crawl space lights, grounding electrode conductor to the water service, etc. Way easier to get them in now because it's unaccessible once the floor is in.

And this one of the new loadcenter, halfway loaded up.

Couple of pointers here. Notice 2 additional ground bars on each side of the enclosure. Since this is the service panel a separate ground bar isn't required. But I like to add one on each side and keep them separate from the neutral connections, just like required in a subpanel.

Bare ground wires running around the panel can be hazardous if one of them happens to touch the line terminals or exposed bus. I've had it happen while stripping romex in a new panel. It's a major arc flash in your face, then your left in the dark after the main trips if your lucky.

So I like to keep the grounds and connection bar high, and drop off those bare ones as soon as possible after they enter the enclosure. The wiring gutters get full enough without the ground wires running down them too, You can see the green main bonding screw installed between the neutral buss and the enclosure.

Another practice I like to do is fill up the most restricted area of the panel first. It's a little harder and slower going than taking the easy route, but it leaves the more accessible areas open for future additions. This same thing applies to where the wiring enters the enclosure. If you take up all of the easy knockouts on the install, then later you may have a problem fitting in another conduit or cable connector.

Couple of thoughts here while deciding on where to to place circuits.

A backup generator hook-up in the future would require 2 pole spaces at the top of the panel to use a mechanical interlock kit with the main breaker.

Avoid putting larger and heavier loaded breakers opposite each other on the panel bus stab. That bus stab has a maximum rating and it may overheat if too much load is placed on it. Aluminum bus panels are more prone to this than copper. The "intent" here is to spread the heat out so it can dissipate preventing damage. I've had this happen with 2) 50A 3P units facing each other, and continuously loaded with 26A. New aluminum bus panel and breakers failed within 60 days. Manufacturer replaced it and said to observe the bus stab ratings, Lesson learned. Best if you can arrange it, is to place all the heavy loads down one side, and the lighter loads on the opposite side.

Most residential panels have lots of small knockout's closely spaced and trying to fill every one of them with a NM-B connector can be a nightmare. Usually the clamp screws will interfere with the connectors next to them. The approach I like, is to punch out a larger hole over several of the smaller ones, and then use "Tomic's" connectors of a larger size. You can fit many more cables in less area that way. Don't fill each "Tomic" to capacity, if you leave some room in each one, adding a few cables later will only require loosing the screws a bit to slip in another, versus trying to punch another knock out hole and install another small connector in an already overcrowded top plate.

One thing to be aware of and avoid though, using this method, is not to bundle the cables all together. Even though their going through the same connector. The code demands that the cables ampacity be derated (reduced) when the cables are bundled together for more than 24". Just fan them out a little after they exit the panel. The "intent" here is a bunch of conductors closely bundled will build up excessive heat when loaded and not be able to dissipate it properly. The blocks installed above and below the panel bay gives you the required space to fan things out a bit.

And lastly notice the the service entrance conductor are also split between the two sides. It helps with congestion and heat dissipation. I try keeping them out of the corners of the gutter to avoid interfering with fittings that may need to enter the sides and terminating wires on the ground bars.

MTW Ω

Any reason why you wouldn't have flipped the main panel upside down? This would have allowed the service cable to enter at the bottom, shortened that up a few feet, kept it out of the gutters and kept the op cleaner for top entering wires? Just curious as an avid diyer, obviously you're light years ahead of most of us with what you did here.

 

[checkthisout]

Any reason why you wouldn't have flipped the main panel upside down? This would have allowed the service cable to enter at the bottom, shortened that up a few feet, kept it out of the gutters and kept the op cleaner for top entering wires?

When I installed my main panel in my garage, I spent a couple days figuring out how to get the feeder cables into the panel from the top because that's where the main is and so that's where the wires have to come in right??? LOL

An electrician buddy came by, grabs the panel, I tell him my issue and he takes it and flips it upside down so the main was on the bottom......my mind was blown!

 

[MTW]

Flipping the panel is a viable option in some situations. Here I didn't because of the swing of the access door. The water heater is next to the panel and I wanted the door to swing towards it, instead of swinging towards the direction you approach the panel from. Also prevents the factory label from being upside down.

One limitation to flipping, is for a vertically operated main breaker. If operated vertically the up position must be the on position, not the case in this example.

MTW Ω