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Retaining wall options/costs

joseywales

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We have a fairly significant retaining wall to replace. Currently it's wood, which has lasted almost 25 years and really has life left in it. We're looking to reconfigure it a bit, to resolve some aesthetics and more so some function.

We have some estimates, using block, and it ain't cheap. There's one area, where we could probably just get away with wood. Any idea how much less it would be if we just used wood? I know I could ask the hardscaper, but if I told you what it has taken to get this far, you wouldn't believe me.
 
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Catadj78

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I'll be doing about 60' retaining wall soon. Material cost and labor time steered me away from blocks but they were my first choice. Found a place that sells used cross ties for 1.00 a peice. Price of the ties made up my mind for me
 

ducksface

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If you already have estimates, why wouldn't you get wood estimates from the same guys or their referrals and erase any doubt or local price differentials between Iowa and California?
Just asking. A local bid is your only sure answer.
 

yeldogt

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I'm in your area -- so I'm sure you need permits. Do you need an engineering study?

When you say block -- like an EP Henry ... or masonry?

Doing wood is not as easy as years ago -- it's harder to get them to pass the engineering part.
 
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joseywales

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Thanks all.

Well, you asked for it:

I'd applied for an initial permit. In fact, this began 2 years ago as a driveway widening project for about $6,000. I approved that estimate, but after 18 months gave up on the paving company. He is well thought of, but perhaps this was a small job for him and I was willing to wait it out, partly since he agreed to handle the landscape aspect as well - one throat to choke. Who's in a rush to drop $6,000. Alas, I gave up.

Then, it got out of hand. We decided to replace all of the wall in front and widen the drive enough to require a wall on that side of the driveway as well. Pulled a final permit. One hardscaper did say it would be an additional $1,500 for engineer drawings, but the other two said no need. For the most part, it's replacing what's there. Estimates were well into the 5 figure range. All included HP Henry block. I approved one estimate and pulled the permit. That work was supposed to have begun in early July... I'm not chasing guys down to hand them significant revenue.

Getting estimates on wood and then block all sounds good and I always request an estimate to be broken down like a Chinese menu. However, I'd approved a significant job and still couldn't get the hardscaper to follow through. What are the chances any of them have the patience for double estimates???

You can say find another hardscaper, but no one in the area has any recommendations.
My son works for a hardscaper and during the estimate process the owner was fairly hard to deal with. My wife is intelligent and had valid questions. Not sure he had the patience. As soon as we started talking options, all of which included block and did NOT reduce cost, you could see he was losing patience. His idea was the best, just do it, type of thing.

Underlying issue: My nephew owns his own contracting business and works 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, because he can't find qualified help. His friend owns a plumbing business and has the same issue. This is largely why I just bought two large tool boxes to retain tools, rather than downsize. It could be a regional issue, but I can't find hardscapers, even when I'm willing to pay and sacrifice a bit on quality.

My wife and I both work, so sometimes we complete home projects, some times we pay. This wall, etc., is a luxury, but if something critical has be done in my home, it's clear I'll be the one doing it. It might not be perfect, but it will be done.

Pretty frustrated at this point.


The main retaining wall is 54" high, running 24 feet, down to 24". The driveway wall was to be 5' high, running 22 feet, down to 6". This doesn't included 12 steps and the landing, all of which were to be block, as well as the wall necessary on the opposite side of the steps. It's a large job and most hardscapers don't do the driveway paving. The hardscaper I approved has a very larger operation, based 2 minutes from my house, and does everything.
 

garagelogician

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Blaine, MN
This is what I do for a living. $1500 sounds about right for engineering. Most governing authorities will require engineering for anything over 4ft, especially if it is holding up something like a driveway.

How close is edge of the driveway to the wall location? Any steep slopes? What are your soils like?

Either your block contractor is busy with bigger and more profitable jobs, or there is something about your site/situation that is making him nervous about the price he already quoted you.
 
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joseywales

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Either your block contractor is busy with bigger and more profitable jobs, or there is something about your site/situation that is making him nervous about the price he already quoted you.

^^^ is why I think the first guy bailed. 1 - he does work for PENNDOT, so I was a gap filler, which is fine. But, he also quoted just the driveway side, but didn't include a retaining wall, which he might have thought better of. Fine! Just let me know and we'll go from there. I'm easy to get along with. The job just probably wasn't worth his time.

I have two companies willing to do it, so I don't think there are any surprises on the property. One doesn't do driveways, so I would have to hire a paver for that portion. Not a huge deal and I have that estimate. Would just prefer one company do everything, but I can deal. The other, he just pissed off the Mrs. If momma ain't happy, nobody's gettin paid. BTW, she's VERY easy to get along with. He just didn't have the patience for questions, mostly about the style of block, not so much the process.

To clarify, the estimate is well north of $15,000 and I don't have an issue with the quotes. I didn't pick the least expensive either. It's just, since the contractor never followed through, I'm just thinking before I contact another company, perhaps I modify the materials and save some money.

The driveway side is a straightforward and the house side is more or less remove/replace. We intended to widen the steps a bit, etc., and there are some grade changes, but all of that had been accounted for in the various estimates. One company offered a second estimate, but things didn't add up, verses the first estimate he gave. I asked about it once, but didn't get an answer. He called back a couple weeks later, to offer a 10% discount. I don't need 10% off, I just need an explanation of the estimate!!!
 

ptgarcia

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Before you pay for structural calcs go to your City or County (whichever is the governing agency) Engineering Department and see if they have standard drawings and calculations for retaining walls; a lot of agencies do. They will typically be a bit conservative in design (meaning over-built) and a bit more costly to build but can save you the headache of dealing with engineers that don't have the time for a small residential project.
 

Kaizen

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move on. get another hardscaper. If it were me i'd start doing the block myself. Using large retaining block with a lip on the back I think might be already rated so maybe won't need engineer.
Its a lot of lifting but not overly complicated if you don't go nuts. if you pull the wood out and its installed level then you have already saved yourself some of the tough work. hopefully its got a course below ground level. Block is expensive but in cold country it flows with the frost and right back where it should be. Did my patio wall 20 years ago and only thing I have had to replace is the steps due to winter salt use.
 

TommyK

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Getting estimates on wood and then block all sounds good and I always request an estimate to be broken down like a Chinese menu. However, I'd approved a significant job and still couldn't get the hardscaper to follow through. What are the chances any of them have the patience for double estimates???

Not much when you have already put them through the ringer on the first one.

Don't mean to offend but if the company your own son works for doesn't want any part of it after requesting a price from the owner, have you considered that maybe your are being too much of a pain in the *** for what seems like a relatively small scope of work?
 
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joseywales

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Not much when you have already put them through the ringer on the first one.

Don't mean to offend but if the company your own son works for doesn't want any part of it after requesting a price from the owner, have you considered that maybe your are being too much of a pain in the *** for what seems like a relatively small scope of work?

No offense. In fact, it was my son's employer who came back with the second estimate, then later offered 10% off, so he does want the job.

Here's how it went, so you tell me. Keep in mind, our first estimate and idea was the driveway expansion only, total cost, including paving, about $10,000

First estimate from this guy, which was the same driveway job, but a complete redesign of the current retaining wall, landing, and patio, steps, etc. $22,000 and he doesn't do the paving - so about $26,000 total. I didn't think any of that was out of line, but it was more than double what we were initially thinking, so sticker shock, but fine. Wife and I were onboard.

However, we asked, would it be a little easier on the wallet, if we just remove/replace what's there and pass on the redesign. He's not feeling it and begrudgingly comes out for a second estimate - hindsight, I should have asked for two upfront. This was a quick handwritten estimate was was only about $900 less, which didn't make sense to me.

It went sideways when we asked about riser height of the new steps and whether the steps needed adjusting. He tells us that the steps (which have been there for 25 years and are in great shape), are a death trap, because the treads are shallow and the decline too steep. To be honest, I hate the steepness, but no one has ever fallen. I don't care for scare tactics. All my wife wanted to know was if we could use certain block and I think Diamond stone caps for the steps.

I don't know. Maybe you're right. I guess there are a lot of people who drop $20,000, no questions asked. I'm just not in that income bracket, or mindset. I wasn't grilling and wasn't trying to get the same job, for less money. It was never about the price. It was about the cost, there's a difference. I was just trying to find a solution that wasn't quite as expensive, but was still worth the contractor's time. But he didn't seem interested in providing many options. My wife was really the one that nixed him and she's the one that REALLY wants the job done.
 

brycez28

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Sheboygan, Wisconsin
move on. get another hardscaper. If it were me i'd start doing the block myself. Using large retaining block with a lip on the back I think might be already rated so maybe won't need engineer.
Its a lot of lifting but not overly complicated if you don't go nuts. if you pull the wood out and its installed level then you have already saved yourself some of the tough work. hopefully its got a course below ground level. Block is expensive but in cold country it flows with the frost and right back where it should be. Did my patio wall 20 years ago and only thing I have had to replace is the steps due to winter salt use.


you want to make sure to use proper materials/techniques for the base and back-fill....you don't want to use the soil that is probably behind you timbers for the backfill. sounds like some sections of this wall will require geogrid to help support the wall. you will also want to have a drain pipe installed. stacking the blocks is the easy part, prep and installation, and proper compaction of everything else is the hard work and key to a retaining wall that isn't going to fail.

I bid a 24' long non-structural retaining wall last week. Two tiers, each tier 18" high (above ground). The ends have corners and connect the two tiers. $7,000
 
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WhiffySpark

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I said 15 for the wall and steps just based on what you provided so it doesn't seem that out of line. Timber costs may surprise you. They're not that much cheaper for me here. And I hate dealing with them. Aren't they soaked in the same stuff telephone poles are soaked in?
 
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joseywales

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I said 15 for the wall and steps just based on what you provided so it doesn't seem that out of line. Timber costs may surprise you. They're not that much cheaper for me here. And I hate dealing with them. Aren't they soaked in the same stuff telephone poles are soaked in?

Agreed. You're guestimate was right there. I have no issue with the prices, just the cost. It probably would have helped if we knew exactly what we wanted before the first estimate. He was there to give an estimate for the driveway expansion, so when we added the large retaining wall, etc., it didn't surprise me that we had sticker shock. I actually told my wife $20,000, without the paving, and she thought I was high. I was within about $1,000. Still, she was onboard and pushing harder than I was. I mean, it ain't the like the wall is falling down :D
 

alexb2000

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Any chance you can reduce the retaining wall to 4'?

I don't know about your area, but in mine anything taller needs engineering AND the engineer has to come out and inspect each step and sign-off on the whole project. That is really a pain on a smaller job.

I would try to walk the thin line of maintenance vs. new work. Especially if that means no permit for maintenance, lots of guys don't want to raise a permit flag unless they absolutely have to.

Things like stairs are a safety item and will 100% go against the contractors insurance if they are built improperly. Asking someone not to do that is putting them at risk. Eliminate the stairs, do them yourself, or leave what you have if you don't have the room to do it right.

Contractors HATE bidding and the only thing they hate more is... customers demanding extremely detailed bids. Ask yourself how much time you are willing to work for free, how many miles you'll drive for free, and then apply that to your situation. If it really means that much pay them for the time to do the bid, at least something to show you are serious.
 

brycez28

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Contractors HATE bidding and the only thing they hate more is... customers demanding extremely detailed bids. Ask yourself how much time you are willing to work for free, how many miles you'll drive for free, and then apply that to your situation. If it really means that much pay them for the time to do the bid, at least something to show you are serious.

I can easily spend an hour+ putting together numbers for a job like this. I'll write the customer a proposal with the cost and what it includes (retaining wall with x product, excavation, fill, drainage, permits, etc). If the customer accepts it, I could spend another hour typing out a detailed contract with exactly what i'll be doing, how it will be done, products used, etc.
 
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joseywales

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I would have no problem paying for the bid to be honest.

I bought used, but it's obvious the entire development was excavated improperly. My neighbor bought new and was told his property would be flat. He has 15 total steps, driveway to front door. It's crazy.
 
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ozyborn

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I finally gave up on mine. I ended up digging it all out with the bobcat back 3' from the edge. Used Gabions and filled with rubble. Hand placed larger flat pieces on fave then backfilled with rubble. Working great.
 

Want2race

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I did a 6 ft tall wall 215 ft long with Allen block with my uncle. Almost killed both of us!

If I did it again I would get a foundation crew and let them come in and poor concrete and finished. The looks to me aren't that critical and some plaster would make it look "good enough for my neighbors to stare at"
 

alexb2000

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I did a 6 ft tall wall 215 ft long with Allen block with my uncle. Almost killed both of us!

If I did it again I would get a foundation crew and let them come in and poor concrete and finished. The looks to me aren't that critical and some plaster would make it look "good enough for my neighbors to stare at"

I've done the same thing, my back still says loudly, "Never Again".

Gabon.... or hire someone else for me.
 

Jim_No_Garage

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I've done the same thing, my back still says loudly, "Never Again".

Gabon.... or hire someone else for me.

I have done 3 projects using CST wall stones. 2 smaller walls in the back yard to resolve some grade change issues and 1 larger wall with stairs along the driveway. All of the walls are under 4' tall so I avoided engineering.

I believe the CST stones I used are 90# each and the driveway wall has several pallets worth of stone in it. That's before the yard after yard of 3/4 clean behind the walls for drainage.

I'm thinking of reworking one of the walls in the back yard and incorporating a paver patio and firepit. I'm not looking forward to carrying those heavy things around again.

Cheers

Jim
 

Orionrising

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Wow insane cost. How about a simple poured wall on a footer... Or precast concrete panels? Around here We would just use concrete waste blocks...

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
 
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joseywales

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Not much when you have already put them through the ringer on the first one.

Don't mean to offend but if the company your own son works for doesn't want any part of it after requesting a price from the owner, have you considered that maybe your are being too much of a pain in the *** for what seems like a relatively small scope of work?

Tommy, i was thinking of you today, so I had to post this. Your comment about me being a pain in the ***. My wife and I both work, so it's hard to find the time to do these things myself. Unfortunately, I find time and time again that you really can't buy your way out. Some of these are folks we're hired, some were recommend, some are extended relatives.

Retaining Wall - the landscaper who replaced my pool liner (I tipped him) did the retaining wall on the driveway side. Results:
The wall is crooked. The drain runs out of the wall, on to the driveway, instead of in the lawn, where I requested it. Several blocks were sticking out as much as an inch and a half. This was not a block defect. He came back to fix it. He pulled some block out, made it better, then, are you ready, he calked where the gaps were. The wall is not level, flush, or straight, and there are places where he has seem over seem, but it's done. He came out twice to fix it. Guaranteed it for 10 years! He can't fix it, someone else would have to. What do I do, sue???

Pool liner - I also went in the pool to close it for the winter, he messed up the liner and covered it with my steps. When I pulled the steps out, you can see and feel large wrinkles. He tried to say the steps caused it. Uh, if the liner was installed properly, the steps wouldn't cause a wrinkle. He agreed. So, either I live with it, or completely drain the pool and what, have him come back out???

Water filter - The plumber just left. He installed a mini-split on our basement wall, it's crooked. Not bad, but I can tell. Solder on my freshly painted wall and trim. He installed a filter in the basement to filter water into the fridge. He's all done. Now we have no water at the fridge and therefore no ice. That's a good thing too, because the ice maker never seemed to know when to shut off, so we'd get an avalanche of ice when you opened the door. Problem solved!

Contractor - The recessed lights that were installed professionally were the wrong lights. The lights had springs for retention, but the cans were not compatible. That's why the lights won't sit flush in the ceiling. Duh...

Stop me any time you like.

Landscaper again - One of the bushes the landscaper installed died. It happens. He replaced it. Remove a bush, place a bush. A caveman can do it. The new bush is jammed against the corner, instead of exactly where the other bush was.

Contractor - Garage door Two years after the door and opener were installed, the top panel is pulling a part. See, some door panels can't take the pull of a door opener. So the company puts a stick on the door that says: "If you are using an opener, you must attached a brace to the panel. Brace is sold separately." I never thought about it, but i wasn't installing it either. I guess the contractor couldn't read. You know the panels for those doors are like $300... Fingers crossed, I used a joist brace as a plate and picked up a brace guys on there suggested. I riveted the plate to the panel and rigged the brace a bit differently than intended, so that it would fit. Seems to work fine. We'll see.

The Paver Two Irish brothers, their crew, and their 11 year old son. Oh forget it. What's the point.
 

mrpizza

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Dang joseywales, sounds like you had the same contractors I did! Nobody does stuff the way you tell them and provide drawings for. If they think its better then that's that.....
 
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joseywales

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Pay your busy nephew just like you would anyone else and get on his schedule if you trust him.
There is no need to go with anyone else if you trust the nephew. He can schedule you just like a 'real' job and you can pay him just like a 'real' contractor.

Yep. That's what I've been doing and never had an issue with that. Still, some of his contractors aren't the best, but he always makes it right. Plus, he's the only one I trust in my house, and I just have to tolerate the rest. These guys are so busy, I must have chosen the wrong profession. I know they're job isn't easy, especially dealing with customers. But what the heck, we all have bosses. Maybe having a different boss every few weeks ins't a bad thing. Of course, I've been pinned in a 2 foot wide closet, running wire in any direction I can to provide overhead lighting in my one room. So, yeah, looks like I'm doing more myself...again.
 
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joseywales

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Well, I waited and the owner of the plumbing company called me. He was pissed and asked me for a picture. I took the picture and thought...that doesn't look like the same setup I saw on Google. It was subtle, but you could tell the elbow with the check valve was on the wrong side of the filter head. I shut the water off, swapped the elbows and swapped the thin lines to the filter. Bingo! It worked. My 11 year old daughter was helping me and asked, "dad, why do you have to fix it if they installed it." Me, "that's why we keep tools for ourselves honey." Daughter, "do we still have to pay them?" Me, "mumble, mumble..."

I texted the owner a picture and told him it was good to go. He was so embarrassed, he fired the guy. He'll most likely take him back, but he wanted to make a point. The owner will be here to install a house HVAC, so I'm betting on a discount ; ) Him, I trust.
 
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