Retrofoam ???

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

OK, I have asked about another foam product on here in the past. I was just at a home improvement display that had a Retrofoam display. Anyone have any experience with it?

I purchased an 1880's brick farm house (2600 square feet) and am spending around $1000 dollars a month this winter to heat. I am looking for insulation options and this looks like a good one, blown in & draft barrier.

Most if not all of the house has had 2x2 walls built inside the original plaster & lath, would it be beneficial to have Retrofoam blown in from the inside into that 2" space? I will have to dig into a wall and confirm what is behind the plaster & lath, at this point I'm not sure.

B) before next year the old fuel oil furnace will be gone, 90+ propane unit going in.
C) Attic space will have extra layer of insulation before next year.
D) Roof will be replaced also.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Kevin54]

Most if not all of the house has had 2x2 walls built inside the original plaster & lath,

I am not familiar with Retrofoam other than the website with a video clip, but if you decide to go with it, MAKE SURE you get a guarantee in WRITING that will cover any damage to your walls. Sure...you can ask them if it is safe for plaster and lath and then when the stuff expands and cracks the walls, who would be responsible? The only reason I say this, is that other foam companies have done existing houses and have had damage suits against them only for the owner to lose because he failed to read the FINE PRINT. Anything that expands will push against your plaster and lath. Any wall of that type over the years have lost some of their "locking keys". This is the wad of plaster on the backside of the lath cracks that holds the plaster on. Cut into any wall and you find these chunks laying down in the bottom of the wall cavity. Without these locking keys, there is not hardly anything holding the plaster on other than grabbing the lath somewhat. SO if you have the expanding foam push against places that have lost the keys, then it will push the plaster off of the lath.Push too much and either a crack develops or it will break and fall. I realize an older house has no insulation and are hard to insulate, and the expanding foam would be ideal, but if something goes wrong and they would not make it right, then you have a remodel job on your hands. I have tore into quite a few plaster and lath houses. Not a fun job at all. Just like everyone says anymore.... "GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING"

 

[sneezer41]

There is almost no scenario where propane is cheaper to heat with than heating oil. The exception is if you have a variable firing rate furnace, this will save more money than condensing will

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

As mentioned in my post the plaster & lath walls are now behind a drywall & 2"x2" wall cavity.

I really want a Geothermal heat source but don't have the $ for the upfront expense. If I could add geothermal to the existing furnance and use the oil as a back-up heat source maybe it would be managable. Then add/upgrade the old oil furnace at a later date. Also I would need someone to size/design it for me, how much tubing and what size heat pump.

Thanks,

 

[Kevin54]

Most if not all of the house has had 2x2 walls built inside the original plaster & lath, would it be beneficial to have Retrofoam blown in from the inside into that 2" space? I will have to dig into a wall and confirm what is behind the plaster & lath, at this point I'm not sure.

I just read where there was a 2x2 wall. I did not know about the drywall. So let me get this straight, you have a P&L wall, then 2x2 furring strips over that, then drywall over the 2x2's. You are wanting to insulate the area between the drywall and the P&L wall? If I am reading it right, I would somehow see if I could insulate between the brick and the P&L wall and leave the 2" cavity the way it is. If you just insulate in the 2" space, I would think it would leave a lot of other voids that you would draw cold from. And another thing you have to consider is the way the house was built. You maty or may not have an idea depending on the extent of any remodeling. I am assuming the house is two story. The houses back then were built differently than they are now. Present day two story houses have the first floor built with the floor for the second story on before they build the second story, so in essence, the second story walls are sitting on a solid floor. Back in the late 1800's, early 1900's, quite a few houses were framed from the bottom to the top on the walls with only bare floor/ceiling joist, then the subfloor was put down with the last board going against the inside of the stud. So if you stood at the top of the wall of the second story, you could drop a marble all the way down the wall cavity to the foundation. With the floor only butting up to the inside of the wall, the wall cavity intersects the opening between the ceiling/floor joist between the first and second story. So if you only fill the 2" cavity with foam, then the outer wall wold not be insulated, and the cold travels thru that area and across the ceiling of the first floor. Some of the older houses had fireblocking put in the walls, but most I have seen in my remodeling days did not. With the way that it sound like your house is, you should not have a problem with too much plaster cracking or if it did, it would not matter as it is hidden behind drywall. But personally, if it was mine and needed insulation, I would see if there was a way to get it behind the P&L wall and insulate between that and the exterior wall of the house. The good thing is...if you get it done and use the foam, and it is stopping all of the air infiltration, your heat bill should drop by 3/4's of what you are paying now. It would be well worth the money spent. I have been in houses that have foam insulation and you could heat them with a match. My ex FIL's house was built back in the late 50's early 60's and was more like a track house and a prefab. Not a huge house by all means, maybe 1200sf, had 2x3 walls and foam insulation. Gas cost were almost nil. The only downside to foam is that if you ever have to run wiring for anything, you are screwed. No getting thru the foam. But if you have a 2" space in front of yours, then you would be fine.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Kevin, You have it exactly right, 2x2 behind the drywall then the original P&L is behind that. The house is of brick construction finished in 1886, the origninal family owned the house until around 2000, when it was sold the first set of major improvements were done. Windows, walls, 200A electical etc.

I am waiting for my wife to show me a spot where I can cut into the wall downstairs and confirm the remodel / original construction. I have cut in a couple electrical boxes and know that in those two walls the P&L is still in there. The window ledges are around 12-14" thick with all this wall, Double row brick (Exterior) P&L (Original Interior) Drywall (Current Interior).

I would love to get the insulation behind the P&L, I'm trying to figure an easy way to get back there with minimal rework after. I'm leaning towards cutting a 6 to 8 inch peice of drywall out of the wall towards the ceiling to gain access to the P&L wall and figure the stud cavities out. Also then below the windows I would drill wholes clear through into the P&L wall, or remove the drywall there completely to gain access.

Sounds like a lot of work, the Drywall was done beautifully and I know already that I hate to finish drywall so I'm not looking forward to any of this.... Other than the lower heating bills.

My wife just finished painting the interior of the house last week, and now I'm going to tell her that I'm tearing every exterior wall apart.......Wish me luck

Keith

 

[ryaninmichigan]

am spending around $1000 dollars a month this winter to heat.

Holy ****!

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Yeah kinda my response when we went through 150 gallons of fuel oil in two weeks last month. I'm still trying to figure that one out. Been two weeks since last fill and still have 75% of the 150 gallons left, go figure.

I think I'm going to cut into my walls tonight and post a pic or two for you all to give your 2 cents on.

Keith

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

OK, did some exploring (without cutting into the wifes walls)

I removed a cold air return vent and found that the thickness of my exterior walls are as follows.

1/2" Drywall
2x4 Wall cavity
plaster / cement directly on Original Interior brick wall
Air gap (Assumed to make up the total measurement of 14")
Exterior brick wall

Overall thickness of wall is 14" from Exterior Brick to Drywall.

I will have to rethink my insulation approach, maybe just blown cellulose. A friendly DIY project that I've done on my first 2 homes, while from the outside, they were wood clapboard construction. This house is Brick so it would have to be done on the inside through the dry wall.

 

[5wndwcpe]

Keith,
A little off topic, but how did you like the cellulose ? I was thinking of using that in my new build, but I've yet to be convinced it doesn't settle over time, leaving a void in the upper reaches of the wall.

 

[6768rogues]

The new foam products show a lot of promise. The older foams were polyisocyanurate and they had a lot of problems. I don't think they are around any more.

 

[comp]

to me thats a lot of wall space,,,,what about infered (sp) test ???

 

[6768rogues]

The infrared scan might be a good idea before spending lots of money on sidewall insulation that is less than a couple of inches thick.
A majority of heat loss is through the ceiling/roof. Take care of that first. A large part of sidewall heat loss is through air infiltration, and the windows and doors are the largest contributor. I would take care of them second. Then I would see where the utility bills are before investing heavily in sidewall insulation, if there is not much room for it.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

In both of my other houses the cellulose made a huge difference. Both of those houses had no insulation other than minor amounts in the attics. We blew it in all side walls and and the attics it made a noticable difference in the confort level.

While I only lived in those house about 5-6 years after doing the insulation, I did not go back in the walls and investigate if the cellulose settled.

Comp - If you read my post from last night after my investigative work, the wall cavity behind the drywall is a full 2x4 or 3.5" deep.

 

[1320stang]

I second doing an infared scan, but it's getting warmer. From the ones I've seen, it should show every stud and piece of blocking in the wall. I'd leave the new wall uninsulated so you can run wiring wherever you like relatively easily.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

OK here is a drawing of how the exterior walls of the house are constructed.
I will be adding insulation to the attic of the house and also insulating the boxing in the basement. Reworking the window seals, they are only 5-6 years old but are drafty due to bad weather stripping around the units. (See my post asking for a source)

I just think it would be a far improvement to insulate the 2x4 wall cavity in the wall as seen in my sketch.

 

[Flathead Youngin']

sheeesh! $1000 a month!

as old as that house it, i'm sure it has a chimney, right?

are you in the city? i'd look into a coal boiler stoker stove......

at least you have good weather coming up so you can get-it-together before next winter eats you out of house and home......

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

The house never had a fireplace in it, so only a small chimney that vents furnace & HW heater. We are out in the country, surrounded by fields ontop of a small hill. I have a picture from when it was 3 years old and it had three chimneys then, all I can assume is it had 3 potbelly type stoves for heat back then.

What ever I do it has to be easy to run, I travel for work sometimes 6-7 days at a time, so I can't put in anything that the wife or girls have to feed. (Wood, coal, grain etc.)

I'm looking hard at a Geothermal before next year, that is if I can get it in at a resonable price.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

IIWY, I'd tackle the insulation issue before purchasing new heating equipment, be it geothermal or otherwise. Your geothermal unit(s) will be much larger than they need to be if you don't insulate first.

I like your idea of putting cellulose in the 2X4 cavity. I was even wondering if you could also fill the 1 1/2" space between the bricks with foam, but you'd want a liscensed and insured contractor to do that. I'd also be concerned about the effect of the foam as a vapor barrier...because it would be on the wrong side of the cellulose...so an expert would need to be involved.

I also like the other's suggestions of looking at a thermal scan...but I'd suggest you could accomplish almost as much by walking around the inside of your house on a cold windy day, with a pencil and notebook, and noting drafts. Then, you could work of that list as your "to do" list with some of that "foam in a can", caulk, etc. Drafts will kill you on your heating bill.

Getting the geothermal unit may seem like the "easy" thing to do. All you have to do is write the check. The right thing to do would be to insulate the home properly first, then size your heating/cooling unit to work with it.

One other thing...I'm assuming your current heating equipment is in halfway decent shape. If it isn't, please provide more details and I may change my opinion on what you should do first.

GOOD GOOD LUCK from a fellow old house owner. Mine's only 90 years old though.

Phil


Phil

 

[Uncle Buck]

OK, did some exploring (without cutting into the wifes walls)

I removed a cold air return vent and found that the thickness of my exterior walls are as follows.

1/2" Drywall
2x4 Wall cavity
plaster / cement directly on Original Interior brick wall
Air gap (Assumed to make up the total measurement of 14")
Exterior brick wall

Overall thickness of wall is 14" from Exterior Brick to Drywall.

I will have to rethink my insulation approach, maybe just blown cellulose. A friendly DIY project that I've done on my first 2 homes, while from the outside, they were wood clapboard construction. This house is Brick so it would have to be done on the inside through the dry wall.

I have a brick home circa 1930 with L&P walls that was killing me on heating costs. I had a contractor blow all the exterier walls in my house with a material that looked similar to a mixture of shredded paper and cloth is the best way I could describe it. I really cannot say what the name of the material is because I do not know. Prior to actually blowing every room a guy went from room to room drilling holes every 16" that were 2-2 & 1/2" dia about 6" down from the top of the ceiling on the wall, he did the same thing under every single window. He also had us empty all the kitchen cabinets hanging high and any other cabinet or space that would not get insulated if he did not do this and did them as well. Only exterier walls were blown and short sections of insulation batts were stuffed between floor joists were the exterier walls and the foundation met at the basement level. Aside from having a lot of holes to fill from the fill holes we experienced no damage at all. We were pleased and have been able to feel relief in the temp and the amount we pay every month to heat the house. A bit messy and inconvenient but I highly reccommend getting this done given your situation. Nothing a few buckets of wall mud and elbow grease will not take care of! You will not be sorry if you get what I got! Do it!

 

[Kevin54]

I have a brick home circa 1930 with L&P walls that was killing me on heating costs. I had a contractor blow all the exterier walls in my house with a material that looked similar to a mixture of shredded paper and cloth is the best way I could describe it. I really cannot say what the name of the material is because I do not know.

It's blown in cellulose. And it actually is ground up paper, fiber and then mixed with a fire retardent chemical. Quite a few years ago they used what they called rock wool which looked about the same. But it did settle more than what the cellulose does. AND the cellulose WILL settle. There is really nothing to hold it up but it's own weight and consistancy. Our house was built in '88 and had blown in insulation in the attic. Over a period of about 10 years it had setled to the point where it was just at the top of the 2x4 in the truss. So I blew in another foot on top of that. One of the NASTIEST, DIRTIEST JOBS I have done. I could taste that stuff for a week. I think the dust gets in through your pores and you definately need a respirator. So it is best to leave it to a professional. One word of caution....if they blow it in from the inside out, be prepared to put up with the wifes nagging for a few weeks. Dust everywhere. LOL!!!

 

[Uncle Buck]

One word of caution....if they blow it in from the inside out, be prepared to put up with the wifes nagging for a few weeks. Dust everywhere. LOL!!!

Nope, not my Mrs. she was just as grateful as me to get some relief from the heating costs! Well worth the inconvenience and mess!

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

I was talking to the Fuel Oil truck driver yesterday when he brought us MORE fuel oil and he mentioned a customer not to far from here, with a similar house, that had a foam blown in between their double brick walls and his delivery schedule to them has gone from weekly to monthly since.

If I could gain access from the attic to this cavity maybe I'll look into insulating that space in addition to the 2x4 cavity, I'm no going to drill through my brick.

 

[Uncle Buck]

I was talking to the Fuel Oil truck driver yesterday when he brought us MORE fuel oil and he mentioned a customer not to far from here, with a similar house, that had a foam blown in between their double brick walls and his delivery schedule to them has gone from weekly to monthly since.

If I could gain access from the attic to this cavity maybe I'll look into insulating that space in addition to the 2x4 cavity, I'm no going to drill through my brick.

The holes drilled in all the exterior walls do pose a bit of an inconvenience regarding filling, sanding, painting but well worth the time and trouble considering the monthly fuel cost difference! Even if you cannot do the attic route and have to go the route that I did you will have no regrets!

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Yeah, I'm 99.9% sure I'll blow the walls full of cellulose before next winter. But if I would of found that the walls were not insulated before the wife painted everything it would be a more popular option.

Thanks for all the input, I just wish my efforts were going into a garage addition.

Probably not this summer but hopefully in 2009.

 

[RK-REX]

Hello all, I'm new here, first post actually, but I can add some personal experience to this discussion.

Last fall, we had Retrofoam come out and insulate our 1350 sq. ft, 1920 Craftsman Bungalow and the cost was $2800-3000, can't remember exactly. I was home the day they came to do the job. I was sitting in the "parlor" and could feel the difference when they got done with the two outside walls in that room. The biggest difference is that there are no longer cold spots int he house. It's an even temp all over the entire house. We previously had no insulation in the walls and minimal in the attic. Last winter, we saved an average of $150 a month heating our house. The furnace is old and it runs about $400 a month down from about $550.

No worries on the foam blowing out the walls. With the exception of my kitchen and bath, the entire house is plaster and I gained not so much as a crack from the insulation. In fact, I was finishing up a kitchen remodel about the time they did it and the insulation oozed from a couple of the new receptacles and onto the kitchen counter. Let it dry, pulled it away from the wall/counter and wiped up the mess with a damp sponge. It's a lot like shaving cream when it dries out. Very light and airy and won't support much weight. Another good thing about it is that they will come out and do any touch ups if you ever happen to need them. Like if you re-side your house and knock some out or have to open a wall for some reason. You couldn't even tell they had been there with the exception of a few bits of insulation that were on the lawn. I'm very happy with it.

-Rikk

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Thanks for the reply RK-REX, however I don't think at that price I could do it, our house is nearly 2600 square foot.

We will keep it in mind, I never did get a reply or call from sending them an inquiry on their website.

When I get to the point of doing the project I will revisit it and call the local installer and have a quote done.

Man I need to get my other house sold, then I could actually start working on this place more than the little things.

 

[GSSFC]

I run a spray foam insulation company. Not in your area but if you have any questions I would be happy to offer suggestions. I have experience with open and closed cell spray foam as well as retrofoam type foam...ask away!

Tim

 

[myers212]

I had Retrofoam of Michigan install it 2 years ago. I believe they were out of Birch Run. My house is a 1-1/2 story built in the mid 50's. All brick on the lower portion with aluminum siding on the 1/2 story. I've noticed a huge difference in the house comfort. It's no longer drafty and the noise level from outside was significantly reduced. They just did the lower 8-9ft portion of the house. The upstairs was going to be renovated so I decided to wait on that and just install fiberglass up there. My house is 27ft x 35ft. The cost was $2000. They sent a crew of 4 to do the job. It took about 6 hours to complete. Two guys drilled through the mortar joints while one sprayed the foam and the other followed filling the holes in the mortar. You have to really be looking for the patches to see them. They are about the size of your finger tip. I'm happy with the job they did. I did notice some of the foam made its way into the joints of the register ducts. No big deal. Once it dries just sweep it up. I have not had any cracking of the walls either. Then again, I have two layers of 3/4" drywall on the walls.

 

[RK-REX]

Thanks for the reply RK-REX, however I don't think at that price I could do it, our house is nearly 2600 square foot.

We will keep it in mind, I never did get a reply or call from sending them an inquiry on their website.

When I get to the point of doing the project I will revisit it and call the local installer and have a quote done.

Man I need to get my other house sold, then I could actually start working on this place more than the little things.

Something I did forget, they are more than willing to only do half of your house, or just a portion if you have a particularly cold spot. I'll look and see if I can find the number, but I think I had the same group out of Birch Run.

-Rikk

 

[sparcky]

Has anyone actually every seen a MSDS sheet on retrofoam. I have from a few years ago.

Not the tech sheet they put up on the websites and give to customers, the actual MSDS sheet.

Notice one very important thing missing from the tech sheet. I could not find anywhere that is says, "does not contain formeldahyde or Urea Formeldahyde". That is pretty much the number 1 thing that should be stated.

Things may have changed since the MSDS sheet I saw, but if so then why will no one send me a current MSDS sheet, or even acknowledge my requests for the past 2 months.

 

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

UPDATE - Great finds

Well, I started exploring more into my insulation needs and found the following.

A) Upstairs drilled hole into exterior wall in my office (spare bedroom) and found fiberglass inside the new drywall & poly vapor barrier!

B) Upstairs drilled hole into exterior wall in my daughters bedroom, different construction, non-remodeled room in house, and found blown in insulation in those walls!

C) Downstairs drilled hole into exterior wall in music room (den) and found fiberglass inside the new drywall & poly vapor barrier!

This post was originally started when I thought I had NO insulation in the side walls, as when I was installing an electical box in the bath room I found no insullation. I guess I will have to ensure that the bathroom is insulated elsewhere, maybe they just missed a cavity when doing the remodeling.

I did pick up 70 bags of cellulose insulation that I will be blowing into my attics this weekend after I get the attic air baffles installed. That will net me an R value of 57 in addition to the very small amount of insullation already present.

Next I will have to increase the soffit vents and place ridge vents when I do the roof.

I hope to see the Fuel Oil truck alot less this winter.

 

[sparcky]

Just an update on Retrofoam. In Canada, Retrofoam has been banned as of Feb 2009 because it is a UFFI product. Guess my deductions were correct.

Here is a link

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/health-canada-advises-consumers-that,703370.shtml

 

[RK-REX]

Great... so now what do those of us who have it need to condemn our houses or what? If it's bad for the environment, ok, fine I can deal with that, it's already done, but if it can cause harm to my family, I am concerned. Anyone know anything about this?

 

[Ezzie]

Just an update on Retrofoam. In Canada, Retrofoam has been banned as of Feb 2009 because it is a UFFI product. Guess my deductions were correct.

Oh man, that's just nuts! How can this happen in this day & age. Don't we learn anything from history?

I have first hand experience with this mess. In the '70's I used UFFI to insulate the wall cavities of my home at that time - it was originally built in the late 1890's using "balloon" frame type construction. I had a local reputable contractor install the stuff - they drilled holes through the plaster & lathe and injected it into the walls from the inside becaause the exterior was cedar shingles.

Then the UFFI ban came along. Eventually I ended up having to strip all the P&L off the inside exterior walls. Since the original construction was not done on the now standard 16" centers, the contractor repaced it for me with urethane foam (at N/C). I had to absorb the cost of UFFI removal & disposal, stripping the P & L and disposal, re-drywalling and finishing. The stuff had to be handled very carefully as well due to health hazards when disturbed (read carginogen!).

Never again - I should have just set a match to the place. Stay away from this stuff.