"Right to Repair"

[mp23]

There was an interesting article in the WSJ today about automakers and how they are making it more and more difficult for independent shops and do it yourselfers to repair newer cars. In essense the automakers are requireing re programming of the computers for very minor fixes such as wiper motors. Naturally only the dealers have the ability to do it. Snap on is mentioned as one of the suppliers where shops can get the tools to re program the computers so im not really sure who is telling the truth. There is legislation out there to prevent the automakers from monopolizing the repair process but who knows what will happen.

It got me wondering if we will even be able fix our own cars and trucks 10 years from now. Any techs out there who can shed some light on the situation?

 

[american lockpicker]

I bet someday we will have such cheap vehicles that it cost more to repair than to buy a new one.

 

[billymade]

Good websites:

http://www.careauto.org/

http://www.righttorepair.org/main/default.aspx

 

[NY Old Guy]

It is very frustrating for example you need a computer to raise the idle on 1998 Subaru. So I can't even adjust the idle without a computer. Also I bought a Chiltons repair manual and in this huge book they don't mention the "check engine" light even once. And that's a '98 not even a new car.

 

[Theloniousmonk]

I think the way manufacturers get around the supposed agreements to allow indies the same tech support the dealerhships get is by way of $$$... some of this proprietary equip is rather cost prohibitive for a smaller shop, even if it is "available"...seems to be everything these days, from flashing rfid keys (locksmiths) to updates to ecu's... you can't do it w/o investing a ginormous amount of $$$ for the capability to service a few cars a month.

There are some laws pertaining to warranty maintenance work - allowing the consumer the choice of who does the work and not be penalized for not taking the car to the main dealer...

 

[willy3486]

You mean we are not at that point? Personally I think that is what they are doing. I can't find anyone in my area that can fix anything,including the car dealers. Anyway anyone remember TV shops? I got started out in electronic repair and worked at a few shops. It got so bad that it cost me almost what a new TV cost in parts alone. Then I got into computers and I see it going on there now. A apple computer is one of the worst designed to take apart computers I have ever worked on. I replaced a keyboard on a laptop the other day and I had to remove everything,logic,display,etc. It took at least 3 hours. The old apple I books I could replace the keyboard in 5 minutes. They are made to not be worked on buy most people. And those of us that do it for a living its a lot harder than it use to be. I see these same tactics in the last few cars I have bought. They get harder to fix and more complicated.

Most companies anymore it seems do not want to make anything. They just want to contract it out to China to make it,then ship it here,mark it up a lot,then get rich. They don't make anything and I hope places like these go out of business. Most places do it that way anymore so I guess the car companies want to as well. But they do not realize if everyone they are use to selling to is out of work ,who will buy their stuff.

 

[american lockpicker]

Most companies anymore it seems do not want to make anything. They just want to contract it out to China to make it,then ship it here,mark it up a lot,then get rich. They don't make anything and I hope places like these go out of business.

But they do not realize if everyone they are use to selling to is out of work ,who will buy their stuff.

I agree.

 

[tonydanzah]

look at current audi and maybe some vw, you need a electronic brake tool to do brakes. The parking brake is electric and you need to turn it off to even swap the pads.

 

[Todd.Brock]

I know a guy, who has a PT cruiser that had the rear window wiper stop working. Replaced the stalk switch and the motor. There is no fuse for it. Turns out he found a TSB that the ECM had to be reflashed. Get this. 89 for diagnosis and 89 bucks for "repair"...Lets just say I know the guy really well....

 

[glenmore]

On some cars (MB) you can't change the ATF yourself. No dipstick, no fill spout. Can only be done at the dealer.

 

[t100]

just wait for OBD III coming out, you all would be more pissed and it's not that far away.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1650&bih=924&q=obd+III+&aq=f&aqi=g1g-sv8&aql=&oq=

 

[BiltFordTuff]

you won't have this problem if you dont own a new car

 

[tonydanzah]

On some cars (MB) you can't change the ATF yourself. No dipstick, no fill spout. Can only be done at the dealer.

its probably like my cts, you pump it into a hole on the side of the case while the engine is running. Not very hard to do, just a little more time consuming

 

[tonydanzah]

just wait for OBD III coming out, you all would be more pissed and it's not that far away.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1650&bih=924&q=obd+III+&aq=f&aqi=g1g-sv8&aql=&oq=

they keep changing the what it is going to be and the manufactures have already rejected it a few times. Last I hard they were going to put a hard drive in the system with a record of everything the vehicle had done as a back up to the satellite.

 

[Theloniousmonk]

On some cars (MB) you can't change the ATF yourself. No dipstick, no fill spout. Can only be done at the dealer.

what... you mean "lifetime" fills are not lifetime?

Audi has done this for almost 2 decades now - you can either pick up the super high $$$ hazet/klann/etc... bottle pump w/ hose or just drop the pan and use a large syringe (about like doing a diff. flush)...

The audi EPB really pisses me off too.

 

[cheap bastard]

Actually, keeping indys and owners out of the loop is exactly the plan. The relationship between them is very close, regardless what the media would have you believe. Dealers "buy" equipment to work on the cars at a very good deal that works with the floor plan and whatever other deals they have going. The customer pays a portion for that deal at vehicle purchase. If you actually got to see what the cost of building a car is compared to the MSRP, you would be floored at the pricing structure. The system is a large portion of the customer cost.

 

[woody 73]

Today I give the young people a big applause and a lot of support,computers out the ying yang,space that only an octopus can maneuver in,schooling 24/7 credentials out the wazoo, and dealing with angry customers everyday.

Things are only going to get tougher ; the days of the shadetree mechcanic are becoming less and less.

 

[oldtools]

If we can not fix car in the future, we no longer need to buy tools, so we no longer need this forum.

 

[american lockpicker]

If we can not fix car in the future, we no longer need to buy tools, so we no longer need this forum.

Thats a terrible thought.

 

[mp23]

I found it interesting that Snap On was mentioned in the article as a place to buy the tools. Looks like they have put themselves in a good position, as in they are probably the only ones you will be able to buy the tools from.

 

[Buzzard217]

you won't have this problem if you dont own a new car

Same here. Style and pride.

 

[t100]

what... you mean "lifetime" fills are not lifetime?

Audi has done this for almost 2 decades now - you can either pick up the super high $$$ hazet/klann/etc... bottle pump w/ hose or just drop the pan and use a large syringe (about like doing a diff. flush)...

The audi EPB really pisses me off too.

remember when "maintenance free" batteries first came out? now they are called "low maintenance" batteries.

Toyota has been doing it, too. their version of "lifetime" ATF is called "WS". that thing is as thin as water. good luck with towing anything with that.

 

[econoaddict]

I found it interesting that Snap On was mentioned in the article as a place to buy the tools. Looks like they have put themselves in a good position, as in they are probably the only ones you will be able to buy the tools from.

Snap-on isn't the only place to get the tools to do reprogramming etc...
There are many different setups out there, like already mentioned price is the big hurdle.
We have been looking at getting new stuff for our shop.

 

[LAROKE]

you won't have this problem if you dont own a new car

Yeah, my daily drivers were Y2K ready. If an EMP hit, I could probably get away with a spare alternator and a push start if it didn't fry my remaining brain cells.

 

[stolender]

Even changing a battery on a newer BMW requires reprogramming. Dealers all do it but, I understand that some private shops don't bother. I don't know what harm would come of not performing the reprogramming.
If I've got a 50K + car, and expect to keep it for any length of time, I'll have the dealer replace the battery and perform the reprogramming.

 

[Underdog]

Even changing a battery on a newer BMW requires reprogramming. Dealers all do it but, I understand that some private shops don't bother. I don't know what harm would come of not performing the reprogramming.
If I've got a 50K + car, and expect to keep it for any length of time, I'll have the dealer replace the battery and perform the reprogramming.

I like my old fashion trucks. My battery goes dead. Step 1. Take it out. Step 2. Go to Walmart get replacement Step 3. Put new battery in and start vehicle.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

There was an interesting article in the WSJ today about automakers and how they are making it more and more difficult for independent shops and do it yourselfers to repair newer cars. In essense the automakers are requireing re programming of the computers for very minor fixes such as wiper motors. Naturally only the dealers have the ability to do it. Snap on is mentioned as one of the suppliers where shops can get the tools to re program the computers so im not really sure who is telling the truth. There is legislation out there to prevent the automakers from monopolizing the repair process but who knows what will happen.

It got me wondering if we will even be able fix our own cars and trucks 10 years from now. Any techs out there who can shed some light on the situation?

It's getting harder and harder. Not only that but the tools needed for it; such as Torx, Torx Tamperproof, Torx Plus, Torx Plus Tamperproof, E-Torx Plus, etc. My Torx Plus set is $301 and my Torx Plus Tamperproof set is $294! And when you need them, nothing else will do. I needed special timing tools for a car at work that i pulled the head on, that's another £40 (cheap for timing tools) and they're needed to set the timing and align the cam position sensor pickup disc correctly.

Reprogramming is becoming a nightmare, on many cars you need to reset the throttle body when you replace the battery, on some you need to reprogram the "battery control module" to tell it that it has a new battery and to adjust the charging rate to suit. (WTF???)

On some cars (MB) you can't change the ATF yourself. No dipstick, no fill spout. Can only be done at the dealer.

Newer MBs don't even have a damn engine dipstick! They actually have a dipstick tube (both engine & gearbox) but no actual dipstick. It's a special tool, dealer-only unless you know the part number and have a trade parts account.

Many autos are like that now, ZFs have been like that for a long time, a drain but no proper fill, no dipstick, etc.

look at current audi and maybe some vw, you need a electronic brake tool to do brakes. The parking brake is electric and you need to turn it off to even swap the pads.

If you have a decent diag machines (We have a Launch at work, it blows.) you can do it through that. It's just knowing the process as VAG cars and their CAN system is different to others, Vag-Com does it too. Alternatively spend $100-ish on the plug-in tool for it. But yeah, it does **** and i much prefer a proper mechanical handbrake over and electronic one. Electronic ones aren't great for hill starts in manuals, but they have an annoying "auto-hold" for it.

 

[anthony73]

Buy a 72 Nova and all this wont be a problem. It has what you need in it and always runs well with just a bit of maintenance.For Mopar guys -Dart Ford- ? ,Maverick maybe?

 

[NinetyTwoFifty]

Buy a 72 Nova and all this wont be a problem. It has what you need in it and always runs well with just a bit of maintenance.For Mopar guys -Dart Ford- ? ,Maverick maybe?

Falcon. Or Mustang.

 

[Stick]

--------------- Link to the online WSJ article. ---------------

There was an interesting article in the WSJ today about automakers and how they are making it more and more difficult for independent shops and do it yourselfers to repair newer cars. In essense the automakers are requireing re programming of the computers for very minor fixes such as wiper motors. Naturally only the dealers have the ability to do it. Snap on is mentioned as one of the suppliers where shops can get the tools to re program the computers so im not really sure who is telling the truth. There is legislation out there to prevent the automakers from monopolizing the repair process but who knows what will happen.

It got me wondering if we will even be able fix our own cars and trucks 10 years from now. Any techs out there who can shed some light on the situation?

Man, talk about a can of worms.... Right to repair isn't really about the consumer, it's about dealer vs. independent shops. Even then the two sides of the issue aren't dealer vs. independent, it's informed shops vs. uninformed shops. One side is happily using the information that has been made available to make money. The other side is made up with those who don't know what is going on that are whipped up into an ignorant frenzy by those with an agenda trying to force through bunk legislation.

I think the biggest issue is that independent shops (and DIY'ers) don't want to pay for the training to keep their techs up to date on modern systems. The problem is that independent shops want to be able to work on anything that comes through their door, but dealer techs generally only work on 1-3 different makes. It's a lot easier for a dealer tech to keep up with the changes than it is for an independent tech working on everything. A prime example is the wiper module in the article, if the independent shop had done a couple minutes of research before performing the repair they would have seen that the vehicle would need to be reprogrammed after the module was replaced.

Right to repair is a fairly complicated issue, but it boils down to this: manufacturers want to protect their investment, and independent shops (and again DIY'ers) want to be able to repair the vehicles. As of right now, any information you need to be able to repair a vehicle is available to you, the catch is that you may need to pay for it, which sounds fair enough to me.

Checking the National Automotive Service Task Force website, you can find service information for any make, down to what is needed to reprogram modules, where to purchase OE diagnostic tools, Service and Collision information, training and more. Most makes are able to be reprogrammed through a generic J-2534 interface/device available through CarDaq (the Snap-on J-2534 passthrough is just a rebranded CarDaq), among other manufacturers.

Through the NASTF website, you can also look up in advance how much that information may cost you, short term (24-72 hours), monthly, and yearly, as well as what it costs for access to reprogram security modules for locksmiths (chipped keys, etc.).

If you don't want to go through OE channels, I know for a fact that AllData will supply any info that is missing from their website that you may need. All it takes is a phone call or request through their website, and generally you will have it faxed or emailed to you within half an hour. Just as good as OE, as that is exactly where they get their info from.

 

[fflintstone]

I was wondering if a new GM vehicle would run with the onstar disabled? I really don’t like the idea of big brother being able to shut down my car or listen to a conversation in my car.

 

[Stick]

I was wondering if a new GM vehicle would run with the onstar disabled? I really don’t like the idea of big brother being able to shut down my car or listen to a conversation in my car.

Yep, runs fine without it, just pull the fuse. #27 in the trucks IIRC.

 

[finn]

I was wondering if a new GM vehicle would run with the onstar disabled? I really don’t like the idea of big brother being able to shut down my car or listen to a conversation in my car.

just go to Wallmart and get some heavy duty tinfoil. It makes great hats.

 

[Danglerb]

Manufacturers and dealers do NOT always share a lot of common interest, and I wonder if this won't be an area where they differ?

OTOH I bet they drool over a system like Japan has where strict and costly inspections pretty much keep all older cars off the highway.

Dealers don't want to touch anything more than 5 or 10 years old, so where is that going to leave owners of these dealer only repair cars?

Our last new car is a Lincoln Continental 1999, and we are thinking of picking up a nice low mileage second one of the same type (1999 - 2002). I know the car well, and we have all the factory service manuals etc. for it.

My 1991 Mustang is a basic no issues car, except for some fussing around smog checks.

We also have two old Porsches, 83 and 85 928's, and I can safely say I was never much of a mechanic until buying them, and now I really doubt many dealerships have anybody that knows more about them than I do.

I don't see us buying a new car until everybody is forced into some kind of electric or hybrid in another 20 years.

 

[teicher]

Right to repair is a fairly complicated issue, but it boils down to this: manufacturers want to protect their investment, and independent shops (and again DIY'ers) want to be able to repair the vehicles.

Once I buy a car, it's my investment, not the manufacturers. We ought to be able to repair our cars if we want to and shouldn't be locked out of the process by unnecessary means.

 

[MrMark]

On some cars (MB) you can't change the ATF yourself. No dipstick, no fill spout. Can only be done at the dealer.

That's totally untrue. You can buy the dipstick from MB and there is a fill tube right under hood with a cap on it. The dealer techs keep the dipstick on their table and you have to remove the cap, which has a red key lock that gets replaced everytime you take the cap off, and then they put the dipstick in and check. You can do this too or just buy the dipstick and leave it in I am pretty sure.

Anyway, any indy or you yourself can change the ATF if you are willing to crawl under the car and do it. It's a hard to impossibly messy job without a lift. It's one of the few jobs I probably wouldn't do. The torque converter even has a drain plug per the service writer.

It's only the Cheap MB that I have seen that have no dipstick for the oil, but you can buy that too if you want. Most people are incapable of checking their own oil and the cars already have an electronic check on the instrument cluster so I guess MB figures it is unneeded. And, in truth, it's hard to argue with them.

 

[MrMark]

its probably like my cts, you pump it into a hole on the side of the case while the engine is running. Not very hard to do, just a little more time consuming

No, Mercedes has a fill plug on top.

 

[Stick]

Once I buy a car, it's my investment, not the manufacturers. We ought to be able to repair our cars if we want to and shouldn't be locked out of the process by unnecessary means.

You aren't "locked out of the process" of repairing your vehicle. If you read the NASTF Website that I linked earlier, it has all the resources that you may need to repair your vehicle.

The physical vehicle itself may be your investment, but the intellectual property associated with it such as the programming and software that controls the modules is still the property of the manufacturer. It's kind of like a CD, just because you own the physical item (and can do whatever you want with it) doesn't mean that you have the rights to the actual music contained on the CD.

The big movement behind "right to repair" legislation is that they want to open up the intellectual property that belongs to the manufacturers to everyone. Even without doing that, the information and resources are available to repair the vehicle, just they may or may not be free to use. It's bunk legislation at it's best, and it's being pushed through by people that don't fully understand the issue.

 

[Techniker]

It won't happen. They do the same with certain OEM parts and a nastier, more recent move is to start encrypting computer data so you can't even access the information with an outside scanner. Car manufacturers enjoy a protection as a monopoly that other industries can't get anywhere near. Democrats normally love to take off after monopolies, but they don't do it for vehicle manufacturers because it helps out their unions. Unions = guaranteed Democrat votes. If any other industry participated in similar behavior, they would be screaming murder. Can you imagine if Merck came out with a drug that also required a Merck-only produced delivery device?

 

[MrMark]

I can get any data off the car I want, I just have to pay to get it. The diagnostic companies have to pay to play and that is what you are paying for when you invest in diagnostics.