romex in conduit

[brian1210]

I have read forum posts from 4 and 5 years ago. I wonder if code has changed. I am in Washington State.

I have a pole barn/pole garage, unfinished walls. I was told I have to protect my wires under the truss height and must be secured to the outlet box. Of course I am on a budget and have 12/2 romex I got from a garage sale cheap. I would like to run 2 circuits (2 pieces of romex) through ¾ schedule 80 PVC conduit. The conduit run will be less than 8 feet but will be attached to the outlet box.
I have tried to get ahold of the inspector, seems like we play a lot of phone tag. Sounds like the best way to contact him is to leave my house at 6:00am and drive to his office.
Can I do this? Is it legal?
Has anybody completed this in Washington State?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Despite popular belief and (mis)information, NM-b(Romex is a brand of NM-b) IS allowed in conduit....though 3/4" is gonna be bare for two 12/2 cables and I think would be violating the max conduit fill especially with sch 80 PVC...Do u have any 12/3? Would be much easier!

 

[brian1210]

So would you suggest 1 inch conduit?

I have not bought the conduit yet. I would like to go PVC because it is cheap.
I spent a lot of money on the 100amp subpanel, wiring from the garage to the house, 2 inch conduit and breakers. Leaving out the cost of the pole building.
money is running out fast.

I got my pole building from http://www.parkerbuildings.com/
I got it for a good price but then renting equipment to level the ground, auger the holes, concrete and hiring extra hands to help build it. the little things you forget about, it all adds up so fast.

And hiring a private shipping to void sales tax.

 

[Richard Cranium]

Where in Washington are you, I am in the Yakima Valley

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Make sure your bargain NM cable is marked on the jacket as NM-B. If it is old, it may not be the -B variation, and code no longer addresses the use of the earlier versions.

The fill calculations for cable such as NM are simple. You take the MAJOR diameter of the cable (measuring the widest way) and calculate the area of a CIRCLE based on this diameter. That is how the code has you arrive at the cross section area of elliptical cables such as NM.

My handy dandy digital caliper tells me that the roll of Southwire® Romex® NM-B is .408 across the widest way. Google tells me (I'm lazy this evening) that this is .13 sq/in of area for a circle that is .408 in diameter. Double this and you get .26 sq/in.

The inside cross sectional area of 3/4 PVC sch 80 conduit is .41 sq/in based on a diameter of .722. Now, the code says that jacketed cables and cords are considered one conductor for the purposes of fill, and the code also says that the max allowed % of fill for two conductors is 31%. 31% of .41 is .1271 sq/in which is way below the .26 sq/in area of two sections of Romex.

So, NO, you cannot legally, by the NEC, run two sections of NM-B in a 3/4 sch 80 PVC. In fact, you would need to go to 1" sch 40 PVC conduit in order to get the two sections of NM cable in by code.

Charles

 

[bmxdad]

Why can't you put them on the side? Or am I not understanding the question.

I'm in Puyallup, where are you?

 

[brian1210]

So question is
Any wires below the truss level must have some protection when installing it in on a unfinished wall (no drywall). So I will have to install conduit or finish the walls. What size conduit do I need to run 2 pieces of romex through and is it legal?

All circuits have to be gfi protected.

I live in Shelton (northwest of Olympia).

 

[Richard Cranium]

I spent a little time in Shelton, at the academy. I have fond memories...

 

[brian1210]

Did you go to state patrol or prison? We have both.
This town is weird, we train prison staff and state patrol.
For those that don't know, two different locations, maybe 2 or 3 miles apart.

 

[cybrdyke]

If it's only 8', then strip the black, white and ground out of the jacket and run them thru the pipe. that's legal, isn't it?
CD

 

[brian1210]

From what I noticed on other posts, romex wires are not labeled, only the outer most sheild is labeled. The other forum posts stated it is not legal because a lack of marking/label on the wire. I'm not a electrician, not sure what the code is.

 

[checkthisout]

I have read forum posts from 4 and 5 years ago. I wonder if code has changed. I am in Washington State.

I have a pole barn/pole garage, unfinished walls. I was told I have to protect my wires under the truss height and must be secured to the outlet box. Of course I am on a budget and have 12/2 romex I got from a garage sale cheap. I would like to run 2 circuits (2 pieces of romex) through ¾ schedule 80 PVC conduit. The conduit run will be less than 8 feet but will be attached to the outlet box.
I have tried to get ahold of the inspector, seems like we play a lot of phone tag. Sounds like the best way to contact him is to leave my house at 6:00am and drive to his office.
Can I do this? Is it legal?
Has anybody completed this in Washington State?

Brian, take a pic of what you're trying to do. There might be easier alternatives.

Also Brian, you can get THHN at Home Depot in bulk so you can get exactly how much you need without overspending.

Being cheap is good but why spend so much time trying to do something unconventional that you might end up having to fix upon inspection anyways?

 

[ddawg16]

It's a whole lot easier to just run THHN/THWN stranded wire. NM is a b!tch to pull through conduit.

 

[checkthisout]

Brian, why not just cover that particular wall section with a sheet metal roofing panel, or plywood or osb or??

That'll pass inspection and no muss or fuss with conduit and can be easily removed and reinstalled in the future.

 

[bmxdad]

Why not run it on the side? I get the code for having to protect it when on the bottom side of the truss/rafter, but why run it there? Staple it to the side, or top even.

 

[checkthisout]

Why not run it on the side? I get the code for having to protect it when on the bottom side of the truss/rafter, but why run it there? Staple it to the side, or top even.

When he says below truss level, I think they also mean inside the wall cavity since he isn't covering the walls.

 

[bmxdad]

I have a detached pole building with unfinished interior and never had that issue. I'm only 40 miles from him in Puyallup.

I think SE type wire needs to be in conduit when in a building, but he's using NM type, right? Could this be the issue?

 

[checkthisout]

I have a detached pole building with unfinished interior and never had that issue. I'm only 40 miles from him in Puyallup.

I think SE type wire needs to be in conduit when in a building, but he's using NM type, right? Could this be the issue?

Yeah, that's why he needs to provide more info. Maybe he misinterpreted something the inspector or an electrician said?

Codes change. How old is your building?

Did you know that current electrical code in Washington requires that any outlet you replace must be arc fault protected and tamper resistant?

 

[bmxdad]

Pretty much all you can buy now ... but don't know if it's code.

Started about a year ago ... never will be done.

 

[sberry]

You really don't need any conduit in a pole barn.

 

[toplessHO]

use type UF

 

[pattenp]

If it's only 8', then strip the black, white and ground out of the jacket and run them thru the pipe. that's legal, isn't it?
CD

It's a code violation to use conductors stripped out of the outer jacket because the jacket has the required printed info on it.

I have a detached pole building with unfinished interior and never had that issue. I'm only 40 miles from him in Puyallup.

I think SE type wire needs to be in conduit when in a building, but he's using NM type, right? Could this be the issue?

SE wire install methods are the same as NM so it does not have to be in conduit where inside a building except where it's subject to damage.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

use type UF

Sam issues as NM, has to be protected when exposed and subject to damage.

 

[alfredeneuman]

How about (2)-3/4" PVC 80, or EMTs to each box.

or a 1" EMT for both of them?

 

[sberry]

I just got to ask because its not in everyones scope of work but how many here have wired a pole barn or 2?

 

[Richard Cranium]

I don't think I would have fond memories if it was jail, I was driving a crown vic. With a light bar yes....

 

[checkthisout]

I just got to ask because its not in everyones scope of work but how many here have wired a pole barn or 2?

Me.

In wa state here, a recent residential pole building with permitted wiring had the wire in conduit except where an electrician came after it was finalized and installed a 220 outlet for a tenant.

Putting the single required outlet wiring in conduit and getting a final probably adds $10.00 extra bucks to the cost of the building.

Op is being frugal to a fault.

 

[bmxdad]

Me too ... only reason I used conduit was I was using individual THHN under the slab, but lights were 14/2 with ground and simply stapled to the sides. Same with the heater, ran 8/2 with ground and simple staples to a box and then to some SOO cable so I could move it around a bit. No conduit needed. I did use EMT for some of the boxes, but again, I was using individual THHN wire for it.

 

[checkthisout]

Me too ... only reason I used conduit was I was using individual THHN under the slab, but lights were 14/2 with ground and simply stapled to the sides. Same with the heater, ran 8/2 with ground and simple staples to a box and then to some SOO cable so I could move it around a bit. No conduit needed. I did use EMT for some of the boxes, but again, I was using individual THHN wire for it.

Was that part of the work permitted and signed off?

 

[sberry]

The question was really aimed at trade electricians.

 

[MagKarl]

From what I've read, wiring a pole barn comes down to the inspector's interpretation of protecting wire from damage. Can some of you guys that know the code expand on it?

 

[reader2580]

I'm not an electrician, but I have wired two houses for myself including one to the 2014 electric code.

For a run that short I would just buy THHN and not spend the time trying to run NM through a conduit. It should be about 25 cents a foot at Home Depot. It should cost you about $15 for the wire. You can also buy 50 foot rolls of THHN for $10 each at HD. You would need three rolls for the three conductors.

 

[bmxdad]

Was that part of the work permitted and signed off?

Sure was ... he said I did a good job too

 

[brian1210]

I paid for my electrical permit today and talked to an inspector.
The inspectors are not concerned about romex in conduit no matter many wires and what matter size.
What they stated, "if the conduit is open on one side, you can put 2 romex in 3/4inches. If it fits, it will work".

Plus found a way to save me more money.
If I install outlets and romex under the wind grit, I don't have to use conduit.
The wind grit is the protection.

 

[checkthisout]

Sure was ... he said I did a good job too

They let you get by without conduit if you say you're going to cover in the future.

Otherwise it needs to be protected from damage 10 feet in height.

Talked to an L&I inspector today.

 

[bmxdad]

They let you get by without conduit if you say you're going to cover in the future.

Otherwise it needs to be protected from damage 10 feet in height.

Talked to an L&I inspector today.

Well, that might be the issue... I did'nt go through L&I, I went through TPU. Are you a business? I'm residential, and it was a pole building. Might be different, but I don't think were talking on the same freq. My buy off had no stipulations.

This was bought off to get power to panel ... no conduit or emt needed.

View media item 43839

 

[checkthisout]

Well, that might be the issue... I did'nt go through L&I, I went through TPU. Are you a business? I'm residential, and it was a pole building. Might be different, but I don't think were talking on the same freq. My buy off had no stipulations.

This was bought off to get power to panel ... no conduit or emt needed.

View media item 43839

Looks good!

Not a business, you're just regulated by TPU and not L&I because you are served by TPU and they are the regulatory authority for the customers in the area they serve. Hadn't considered that. Should have since your location is Puyallup.

 

[checkthisout]

From what I've read, wiring a pole barn comes down to the inspector's interpretation of protecting wire from damage. Can some of you guys that know the code expand on it?

L&I's position in Washington is that you have to put the cable in conduit below 10 feet I.E. protect it from damage.

If you're going to cover the walls, then of course the wall covering will provide the protection.

That's why I recommended the OP just slap a piece of plywood over the stud cavity where the wires will run. They'll pass that and no conduit needed.

 

[brian1210]

It is a pole building, no studs,
I do get what you are saying but it is alittle tougher on a pole building. No studs 18 inches on center, grits spaced out 2 feet, then they are on end. You would only have 1 1/2 to run your wires plus, you would have to protect them from the outside also. So a stray nail doesn't go through the siding into your wire. Similar to metal plates on studs.

I'm going to do the conduit.
Yes, I went by labor and industries this morning. A lot nicer then mason county planning department

 

[MagKarl]

L&I told you that stapling wire to the under side of your wind girts was acceptable? That's how I hope to do mine, but I probably need to get the inspector out to confirm.