Romex in Garage and Stranded in Loft

[lake marine]

36X24 garage with a ~600 sqft livable space loft (plan a small kitchenette, full bath and living area. I'm getting an estimate from a retired electrician to do the service hookup and install 200A panel. He'll also install one light, three way switch at the two entry doors and receptacle for the garage door. Once it is inspected/signed off I plan to do the remaining electrical myself. I mentioned to the electrician I planned to put a 100A panel in the loft for that area so that one wouldn't have to root through the garage to reset a breaker if ever need to. He disagreed and recommended running a single 1 3/4" conduit up to the loft containing enough stranded wire pairs for the switches outlets and mini split etc. and leaving the circuits in the main panel in the garage.
He also said if it were wired properly you should never need to reset a breaker. I said what about a lightning storm and he just shrugged.
Any opinions on his suggestion?
Thanks LM

 

[Zeke]

So you plan on having your electrical inspected with the bare minimum in place? Then you are going to add all these circuits later, and possibly a sub (which I think is OK if for no other reason, saving wire). You are putting a 200 amp panel in and what, 3 circuits initially?

Who are you trying to kid? Not your insurance company, they won't think it's funny at all.

 

[The Cobbler]

do what you need to do now, and get permit(s) for additional work . also I would be surprised if the "livable space" would allow a breaker panel to be outside of it's accessible area . here an apt needs it's breakers accessible to the occupant, for obvious reasons .
maybe you need another electrician

 

[CoogarXR]

A 600SqFt loft needs 100A? Wadda ya doin' up there, mining bitcoin? LOL

Honestly though, I haven't had a breaker pop from lightning since I was a child. I don't know if modern breakers are just better now, or if grounding is better, or what. But I have literally never tripped a breaker in my adult life without overloading it or shorting it.

 

[sparky 1971]

I'd say no to the sub panel and no to the jbox. By the time either one of them are finished, all of wire could be pulled to the main panel. Just pull the Romex from the loft to the main panel. Code wise, the kitchenette will probably have four 20 amp circuits depending on what you have (two countertop, and maybe a dishwasher/disposal and or a microwave) one for the bath receptacle, a 12/2 for the mini split, and maybe two circuits for the general receptacles and lighting? That's not enough to make it worth screwing around with. If it was a big space I might be on board with a sub, but 36X24 isn't really all that large.

 

[Zeke]

I'd say no to the sub panel and no to the jbox. By the time either one of them are finished, all of wire could be pulled to the main panel. Just pull the Romex from the loft to the main panel. Code wise, the kitchenette will probably have four 20 amp circuits depending on what you have (two countertop, and maybe a dishwasher/disposal and or a microwave) one for the bath receptacle, a 12/2 for the mini split, and maybe two circuits for the general receptacles and lighting? That's not enough to make it worth screwing around with. If it was a big space I might be on board with a sub, but 36X24 isn't really all that large.

True.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

36X24 garage with a ~600 sqft livable space loft (plan a small kitchenette, full bath and living area. I'm getting an estimate from a retired electrician to do the service hookup and install 200A panel. He'll also install one light, three way switch at the two entry doors and receptacle for the garage door. Once it is inspected/signed off I plan to do the remaining electrical myself. I mentioned to the electrician I planned to put a 100A panel in the loft for that area so that one wouldn't have to root through the garage to reset a breaker if ever need to. He disagreed and recommended running a single 1 3/4" conduit up to the loft containing enough stranded wire pairs for the switches outlets and mini split etc. and leaving the circuits in the main panel in the garage.
He also said if it were wired properly you should never need to reset a breaker. I said what about a lightning storm and he just shrugged.
Any opinions on his suggestion?
Thanks LM

A lightning storm? what does that have to do with breakers tripping because of overcurrent? Ive never seen breakers trip due to lightning. that doesnt make sense. breakers are for protecting the wire on the load side. they wouldnt trip because of something happening on the line side

 

[lake marine]

I haven't had a breaker pop from lightning since I was a child.

Lol...no mining but I remember when I could have bought it for $60 per bitcoin!
The TV rooms circuit in my basement has a GFI breaker and it sometimes trips when we have thunderstorm/power interruptions. I guess that's a sign of-an overloaded circuit or poor ground...wouldn't doubt if he banged the rod in 1 ft hit a rock and sawed it off. The contractors electrician for the house (18yrs ago) was a bruiser. Often wonder why the outlets in the 1/2 of attached garage are on the same circuit as the downstairs bath!

do what you need to do now, and get permit(s) for additional work . also I would be surprised if the "livable space" would allow a breaker panel to be outside of it's accessible area

Thats a good point, I'll ask the inspector when he comes for the basic electrical inspection. He has been easy to talk to. He will know what permitting is required for additional work as a homeowner once the contractor is finished.

I'd say no to the sub panel and no to the jbox. By the time either one of them are finished, all of wire could be pulled to the main panel. Just pull the Romex from the loft to the main panel. Code wise, the kitchenette will probably have four 20 amp circuits depending on what you have (two countertop, and maybe a dishwasher/disposal and or a microwave) one for the bath receptacle, a 12/2 for the mini split, and maybe two circuits for the general receptacles and lighting?

Thanks - that's about it as you describe. Any thoughts on his suggestion on the stranded wire? He is the builders electrical sub and suggested it.

 

[sparky 1971]

Thanks - that's about it as you describe. Any thoughts on his suggestion on the stranded wire? He is the builders electrical sub and suggested it.

To be honest, my thought is that's a stupid idea. Why run a conduit to a junction box 25' away, then run Romex to the j-box and have to screw around making all those splices? Just run the romex from wherever it is in the loft to the main panel and be done with it.

 

[lake marine]

conduit to a junction box 25' away

No! He suggested stranded wire pair’s in conduit from main up to loft then routing the pairs accordingly.
Edit* I was suggesting maybe #6 from main in conduit to a loft sub panel that has circuit’s using romex to the light’s receptacles etc.

 

[sparky 1971]

No! He suggested stranded wire pair’s in conduit from main up to loft then routing the pairs accordingly.
I was suggesting from main to a loft sub panel with its own circuit’s to the light’s receptacles etc.

Isn't he wanting to run a 3/4 conduit to the loft with pairs of wires to a box? If that's the case, romex, is going to have to be run from the home run boxes in the loft to the junction box. If he is wanting to wire the whole loft in conduit using stranded wire, then that's an even worse idea. Way too much time and money being wasted.

As far as a panel in the loft, I see no benefits. Having the panel on the main level is no different than a panel in the basement of a regular house. Resetting a breaker will require a trip down the stairs. And who wants to look at a panel cover in a finished room?

 

[yatg]

I'm getting an estimate from a retired electrician

Think he needs to stay retired.

 

[lake marine]

Oh boy… I’ve royally f’d this up! He is doing the basic to meet code for electrical for the builder. He’s doing meter box, breaker panel and min lights and receptacle. (The contractor wanted 1K for the min or 8K for complete.) I opted for min. Other day asked the “electrician” about side work estimate for loft. He described 1 3/4 conduit containing multiple stranded wire pairs (assuming w/ground) to route to receptacles lights etc. each pair from individual breaker in garage panel. I’d never heard of this method. I’ve never heard of this method.

 

[sparky 1971]

Oh boy… I’ve royally f’d this up! He is doing the basic to meet code for electrical for the builder. He’s doing meter box, breaker panel and min lights and receptacle. (The contractor wanted 1K for the min or 8K for complete.) I opted for min. Other day asked the “electrician” about side work estimate for loft. He described 1 3/4 conduit containing multiple stranded wire pairs (assuming w/ground) to route to receptacles lights etc. each pair from individual breaker in garage panel. I’d never heard of this method. I’ve never heard of this method.

If he told you 1-3/4" conduit, he's an idiot. There's no such thing. I thought you meant one 3/4 conduit. Just get the bare minimum and be done with it.

 

[lake marine]

Good point. He’s supposed to be here tomorrow so I’ll either clarify or muddle the water further!

 

[lake marine]

Ok - I talked to the guy today. He said (if he were wiring the loft area) he'd run 6 pairs (for 6 circuits) of #12 stranded through 3/4" conduit from the panel in the garage to a junction box in the loft then from the junction box run romex to the outlets, lights switches etc. for each circuit. Reasoning was he felt its less expensive, "cleaner" in the panel and eliminates a cluster of romex up through to the loft area.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Its just adding another point of failure and is more work.

 

[sparky 1971]

Ok - I talked to the guy today. He said (if he were wiring the loft area) he'd run 6 pairs (for 6 circuits) of #12 stranded through 3/4" conduit from the panel in the garage to a junction box in the loft then from the junction box run romex to the outlets, lights switches etc. for each circuit. Reasoning was he felt its less expensive, "cleaner" in the panel and eliminates a cluster of romex up through to the loft area.

I'm calling BS. By the time he gets done dicking around running the conduit, all of the romex can be run back to the panel, and he still has to pull the wire in the conduit. The only thing it will save in the panel is not having as many grounds to land. And...he's probably gonna try to use a 4X4 box, that will probably require using a hammer to get the cover on.

 

[eegger]

I'd say no to the sub panel and no to the jbox. By the time either one of them are finished, all of wire could be pulled to the main panel. Just pull the Romex from the loft to the main panel. Code wise, the kitchenette will probably have four 20 amp circuits depending on what you have (two countertop, and maybe a dishwasher/disposal and or a microwave) one for the bath receptacle, a 12/2 for the mini split, and maybe two circuits for the general receptacles and lighting? That's not enough to make it worth screwing around with. If it was a big space I might be on board with a sub, but 36X24 isn't really all that large.

This, I would think would be best/easiest/fastest. Maybe run one 10/3 (if there is a stove/minisplit and 3-4 12/2 and be done. You'd have all this done in the time it would take to do a subpanel and conduit

 

[lake marine]

Maybe run one 10/3 (if there is a stove/minisplit and 3-4 12/2 and be done.

Sounds good. Thanks for the advice. So...with one 10/3 the stove and the mini split would be on the same circuit?

 

[sparky 1971]

Sounds good. Thanks for the advice. So...with one 10/3 the stove and the mini split would be on the same circuit?

10/3 is for clothes dryers. A range uses 8/3 or 6/3. A mini split for 600 square feet won't need any more than a 12/2, possibly even a 14/2. No, they won't be the same circuit. Your 3/4 conduit is beyond full.

 

[beemerphile]

10/3 must be a Barbie Stove.

 

[alfredeneuman]

he'd run 6 pairs (for 6 circuits) of #12 stranded through 3/4" conduit

Due to the number of conductors in the conduit, it would be subject to amperage adjustments.
12 in a conduit requires a 50% reduction from the 90 degree column (#12 is 30A).
You'd only be able to use a 15A breaker and not a 20.

 

[lake marine]

Glad I asked for opinions on his conduit/stranded wire idea - its now dead to me.
I'll look into the requirements of whatever small "apartment" size appliances we plan to put up there and run romex accordingly.

 

[eegger]

10/3 must be a Barbie Stove.

Woops, brain hasn't turned on yet this morning, was thinking more for the mini split than a stove.

 

[dcg9381]

He also said if it were wired properly you should never need to reset a breaker. I said what about a lightning storm and he just shrugged.
Any opinions on his suggestion?
Thanks LM

We have a 750 sqft garage apartment. Left to his own devices, the electrician ran romex from the garage area (100A main) to the apartment. I agree with you, I really dislike this configuration. When a vacuum trips an arc/gfi fault combo breaker (it happens quite a bit), you have to leave the apartment.

You're the customer. But making him put a panel up there may change his bid.

 

[Zeke]

Reviewing the first post and some of the suggestions I would point out that although we don't know, it sounds like NM cable home runs would be exposed in the open part of the building. Hence the 'retired' guy's idea of running circuits in conduit to some finished walls where he or the owner can use NMC.

The problem with threads like this is too little information. alfredeneuman makes a good point about conduit fill.

 

[Mzungu]

If it is a loft with direct access from the garage space I would pull all circuits to the main panel via Romex. If it is a loft intended as a bachelor type suite rental with direct access to the outside or in the future it may be, I would install a sub panel fed from the main.

 

[alfredeneuman]

If your electrician ran multi wire branch circuits (2 hots on opposing legs with shared neutral) through the conduit, you'd be able to increase the breaker size to 20A.

 

[jeepxj]

wot in the world.

 

[alfredeneuman]

wot in the world.

If you mean me.....read post #23

 

[jeepxj]

If you mean me.....read post #23

this whole thing.

how often is OP really tripping breakers that you dont want to do the long walk of shame to think about what you screwed up?

 

[Zeke]

this whole thing.

how often is OP really tripping breakers that you dont want to do the long walk of shame to think about what you screwed up?

That's one way of looking at it, but if this is a living space he needs AFCI's. I don't have any problems with all my AFCI's but my wife has something, perhaps an ol d heating pad, that will trip an AFCI. It's nice to walk over to the wall, take a painting down and flip the breaker.

Even she can do it whereas I don't see her in the panel outside at the meter.

 

[sparky 1971]

If your electrician ran multi wire branch circuits (2 hots on opposing legs with shared neutral) through the conduit, you'd be able to increase the breaker size to 20A.

It might not fit the definition of a dwelling exactly, but it's probably going to require AFCI's. Maybe there are two pole AFCI breakers that I'm not aware of since I do very little (but still too much) residential new construction work.

a single unit that provides complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons that must include permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation

I'm not sure if an actual bedroom is going to be required for it to have permanent sleeping provisions. That's going to be the AHJ's call.

 

[jeepxj]

That's one way of looking at it, but if this is a living space he needs AFCI's. I don't have any problems with all my AFCI's but my wife has something, perhaps an ol d heating pad, that will trip an AFCI. It's nice to walk over to the wall, take a painting down and flip the breaker.

Even she can do it whereas I don't see her in the panel outside at the meter.

I used AFCI outlets in my bedroom. not sure if that covers code anymore but i can reset right in the same room.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Maybe there are two pole AFCI breakers that I'm not aware of since I do very little (but still too much) residential new construction work.

There are (examples)
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens...ation-AFCI-Circuit-Breaker-Q220AFCP/202253104
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-H...ombination-Arc-Fault-Circuit-Breaker/50311205

 

[Zeke]

It might not fit the definition of a dwelling exactly, but it's probably going to require AFCI's. Maybe there are two pole AFCI breakers that I'm not aware of since I do very little (but still too much) residential new construction work.

a single unit that provides complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons that must include permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation

I'm not sure if an actual bedroom is going to be required for it to have permanent sleeping provisions. That's going to be the AHJ's call.

Not electrically related but loft style and studio apartments are still OK AFAIK.

 

[lake marine]

If it is a loft with direct access from the garage space I would pull all circuits to the main panel via Romex. If it is a loft intended as a bachelor type suite rental with direct access to the outside or in the future it may be, I would install a sub panel fed from the main

Edit* Loft has access through a garage side door then a door to go up the stairs. Its intended for guests and possibly future rental to someone vetted who can help out around the house for reduced rent.

I'm not sure if an actual bedroom is going to be required for it to have permanent sleeping provisions.

Our 3 bedroom ranch is adjacent to the new garage. Our septic tank is 1500 gallon but the inspection office in our county said I couldn't list the loft as a bedroom if it had a bathroom but said I could list it as an office on the permit.

Thanks for the input. Our house panel has AFCI's on bedroom circuits. I would feel better having them in the loft and for whatever reason if one tripped. I'd also feel better if someone didn't have to fumble there way down the stairs and through the shop to get to the main panel. With that said I'm still considering the sub-panel in loft. I have some time as now the window delivery is delayed and the inspector told me I couldn't add any additional electrical until he's done his last inspection at garage completion.

The retired electrician finished the basic electrical and it passed inspection. Not sure why he knocked out two of the circuit "windows" but only installed one. Maybe he was going to run two circuits, one circuit for the light/switches he installed and one for the garage door receptacles in ceiling. I'm not sure as he left before I had a chance to talk to him.

 

[sparky 1971]

The retired electrician finished the basic electrical and it passed inspection. Not sure why he knocked out two of the circuit "windows" but only installed one.

Square D panels come from the factory like that.

 

[lake marine]

Just looked up them up and see that now. He also drilled two holes next to each other in the top plate for conduit but only used one. Guess I'll never know what hewas thinking!