bczygan
Well-known member
What is best price performance products from Lowes?
Board sheathing.
And best substitute for Grace ice and water shield?
Bill
Board sheathing.
And best substitute for Grace ice and water shield?
Bill
Roofing underlayment
- Thread starter bczygan
- Start date
matt_i
Well-known member
Osb is like half the price of plywood. There is no substitute for Grace. But there are many competitive products. Be careful up there!
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Several years ago, my son had his compete roof deck replaced (another story). I did a lot of research and could find no performance difference in OSB vs plywood so go with whatever is cheaper.
If you are patching, you will have to stick with the thickness of the rest of the decking, but at my son's house, he paid to upgrade from 7/16" to 1/2".
Don;t forget the "H Clips" in areas where the OSB has to span more than 24" !
Elginz
Well-known member
Been using one of the synthetics with cap nails for years now, and what I have on my house with boards.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
If you don't have too many bad boards, stick with 1x6. It might cost a bit more, but it will be easier in the long run.
Any underlayment will work, use ice and water dam shielding along the edge and in any valleys.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Another reason to use 1x6 for patching.
Randy in Maine
Well-known member
Advantech plywood. Tape the joints. I Used 5/8".
Gracie Ice and Water shield over the whole thing.
The goal here is to do it once.
Gracie Ice and Water shield over the whole thing.
The goal here is to do it once.
Randy in Maine
Well-known member
How much money do you save if it leaks?
Use the real Gracie stuff. Do the whole roof.
Use the real Gracie stuff. Do the whole roof.
nw3dogs
Active member
This would be your best bet if your store has it.
http://www.lowes.com/pd/GAF-WEATHER...q-ft-Polypropylene-Roof-Underlayment/50353096
If you do the whole roof make sure you properly vent the roof.
http://www.lowes.com/pd/GAF-WEATHER...q-ft-Polypropylene-Roof-Underlayment/50353096
If you do the whole roof make sure you properly vent the roof.
James-W
Well-known member
I have heard many homes around here are being built with 5/8 sheathing rather than 1/2 inch. The cost isn't all that much more but the roof is a lot sturdier.
ssdave
Banned
I tend to equate best value with excellent performance, within reasonable price. I would use this:
http://www.lowes.com/pd/GAF-TigerPa...ft-Polypropylene-Roof-Underlayment/1000036675
It's a bit better than the $89 version referenced above, and the fact that you are going to use it over boards instead of sheet goods is a good reason to use better, stronger material.
There is no good answer for something cheaper than the grace ice and water shield. It's a waste of money to use it over the whole roof, but do 2 rows at the eave end of the roof to prevent ice damming. Then, overlap the synthetic underlayment over it, and cover the rest of the roof with the synthetic.
If you have a typical house, you'll use about 3 rolls of grace ice and water shield and about 2 or maybe 3 rolls of the synthetic underlayment. That's less than $1000, and it's great insurance against never having a leak in the roof. Plus, it's weatherproof the moment you get it on.
http://www.lowes.com/pd/GAF-TigerPa...ft-Polypropylene-Roof-Underlayment/1000036675
It's a bit better than the $89 version referenced above, and the fact that you are going to use it over boards instead of sheet goods is a good reason to use better, stronger material.
There is no good answer for something cheaper than the grace ice and water shield. It's a waste of money to use it over the whole roof, but do 2 rows at the eave end of the roof to prevent ice damming. Then, overlap the synthetic underlayment over it, and cover the rest of the roof with the synthetic.
If you have a typical house, you'll use about 3 rolls of grace ice and water shield and about 2 or maybe 3 rolls of the synthetic underlayment. That's less than $1000, and it's great insurance against never having a leak in the roof. Plus, it's weatherproof the moment you get it on.
coldh2o
Well-known member
Unicorn. You get what you pay for.
James-W
Well-known member
I agree, when it comes to roofing materials I can't see scrimping to save a few bucks.
BlackTalon
Well-known member
Grace I&WS at perimeter, ridge and penetrations. Felt underlayment over the field. Why put essentially a vapor barrier over the full roof and risk wood deterioration due to condensation? Unless the slope is less then 5:12 I would not cover the full deck with I&WS.
And I have yet to see an I&WS membrane that can hold a candle to Grace's membrane. Nothing else bonds nearly as well.
And I have yet to see an I&WS membrane that can hold a candle to Grace's membrane. Nothing else bonds nearly as well.
Just wondering Bill, why the fixation on Lowes? Gift cards? The same shingle bundle that's $38 at lowes costs me $30 at my local roofing supply, and I'm not even getting the pro price. I would think underlayment would have the same difference in price, though Lowes doesn't carry the stuff I used (and I don't have to worry about ice).
Hope you don't have to replace any boards from the box stores. around here they only carry the nice finished stuff, which is very expensive.
Hope you don't have to replace any boards from the box stores. around here they only carry the nice finished stuff, which is very expensive.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Nothing wrong with tar paper. If the shingles are installed properly, it is strictly a backup.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
The Grace product is advertised as "rubber" All the other are polypropylene. I don't know what that really means in terms of performance. Owens Corning Weatherlock 39.5¢/sq ft versus 69¢/sq ft for the Grace Rubber Roof Underlayment at Lowes.
The Weatherlock has a "Slip-resistant granulated surface for better traction".
Menards has a product by Tarco called LeakBarrier Ice and Water Armor. It is 24¢/sq ft.
The Weatherlock has a "Slip-resistant granulated surface for better traction".
Menards has a product by Tarco called LeakBarrier Ice and Water Armor. It is 24¢/sq ft.
matt_i
Well-known member
As mentioned earlier, box store is the very last place I would shop for roofing. I used Allied Building Materials around here, they basically specialize in siding and roofing materials with ~6 metal barns full of the stuff.
If the roof pictured is actually stripped to that level, its probably a waste of keystrokes, but its a mistake to be posting questions on an internet forum, the materials should be on-site before one strips the first shingle.
I put up Grace i+w followed by Grace tri-flex, the latter nailed with the orange cap nails. I could not detect any leaks for about a month while I built the roof and other details. So, its a pretty good "roof" by itself to buy time to complete the asphalt-based part, although the upper surface on the i+w exhibited noticeable UV-fading after that time.
If the roof pictured is actually stripped to that level, its probably a waste of keystrokes, but its a mistake to be posting questions on an internet forum, the materials should be on-site before one strips the first shingle.
I put up Grace i+w followed by Grace tri-flex, the latter nailed with the orange cap nails. I could not detect any leaks for about a month while I built the roof and other details. So, its a pretty good "roof" by itself to buy time to complete the asphalt-based part, although the upper surface on the i+w exhibited noticeable UV-fading after that time.
krcoomer
Well-known member
What David said. Also, use 30# felt instead of the 15# ****. I can always tell 15# when I tear into a roof because it crumbles like a bag of potato chips. Use Grace around the lower perimeter and in any valleys. Add a vent or two more than called for to keep it cool up there.
Oh and also keep your *** above the gutters while you're working up there.
As usual, everyone on GJ pitches in with every possible solution/
I appreciate the suggestions guys!
Also, as usual, real world constraints factor in.
Lowes must be the source, because I have some available credit, no cash, and can use the 10% coupon code. Even then, money is an object, because not much credit is available.
Now, let me analyze the rest of my options.
I opened it up because I have adequate tarps to cover it, and will today because rain is due late morning. It's just me doing the work, so it will take a while. I'm slow, old and work mostly from a sitting position.
The roof is about 24x26 and a plain gable with only a chimney at one end rake, so no valleys. I've removed gutters and downspouts and won't be replacing them. Will install new fascias.
I do have a supply of reclaimed 1x material of various widths and lengths. May need some more since there are leaks in a number of areas, plus the extended rafter tails will require additional material.
I'm doing only the back side for now. Front later, maybe even next spring. This is a 2nd story roof with a 4 1/2 to 12 pitch. If I had my druthers, I would open it up, reframe to 12 and 12 and install a continuous shed dormer on the back and 3 dormers on the front for light and make it a 3rd floor with a deck overlooking the back yard. I would use the Advantech decking and rubber roofing on the shallow slope dormer. But that's just dreaming. I did the lower single story roof over the garage a few years ago, and saved the shingles needed to do this roof. Been putting it off because scared of heights. Even considered fall protection, but I'm getting acclimated.
I have plastic ridge vent pieces, so will eliminate the 3 individual roof vents.
There are two materials I am going to make decisions on. First is the water barrier. The main thing this does, is to prevent water intrusion through the roof deck, when ice dams back meltwater up under the shingles. This happens mostly where overhangs cause a transition between the unheated overhang, and roof areas over the heated spaces that are, warmer. The main function is that it seals around nails and provides a barrier. So thickness of the membrane is important. There are other options besides Grace that have the same material and thickness. How well it sticks to the deck is not as important because the deck is boards to begin with, and once shingles are down, it doesn't matter. I will use one of them to save money. It isn't really useful to cover the entire deck with it because ice dams don't typically cause water backup further up the roof. But it might be useful to extend it more than the typical 3'.
The other material to choose is the actual underlayment. This is not a waterproof material, no matter what you choose. Tar paper actually absorbs moisture, but the 30# provides some cushioning and helps with uneven decks like mine. I always use the 30#. But it can wrinkle and tear, so I'm considering the newer materials. These are also just water resistant, and after nailing are not leak proof from ice dam backup after shingles are installed. The advantages to me are the fact that they don't absorb moisture, don't wrinkle and resist tearing when installing. Being thinner then the 30# paper, I worry they will telegraph the uneven board decking through the shingles. New shingles are real thin. What was up there was 2 layers. The upper layer was typical thin shingles that had deteriorated into loose scraps and pieces. Underneath was a very thick old shingle that bridged imperfections well. It was so thick, that the newer shingles on top actually laid on them in waves.
By the way, new shingles are 3 tab and I'm not worried about warranty, just doing a good, workmanlike job. Biggest worry was the eaves, which were done without any venting. No edge metal and wood shakes were used to build up the eave. This area is wet and rotted. Rafter tails were rotting out and water was getting into the wall. That's why I'm going to all the trouble to extend the rafter tails. Will also pack out the rakes to get some small overhang there. May run some ice and water there.
Bill
I appreciate the suggestions guys!
Also, as usual, real world constraints factor in.
Lowes must be the source, because I have some available credit, no cash, and can use the 10% coupon code. Even then, money is an object, because not much credit is available.
Now, let me analyze the rest of my options.
I opened it up because I have adequate tarps to cover it, and will today because rain is due late morning. It's just me doing the work, so it will take a while. I'm slow, old and work mostly from a sitting position.
The roof is about 24x26 and a plain gable with only a chimney at one end rake, so no valleys. I've removed gutters and downspouts and won't be replacing them. Will install new fascias.
I do have a supply of reclaimed 1x material of various widths and lengths. May need some more since there are leaks in a number of areas, plus the extended rafter tails will require additional material.
I'm doing only the back side for now. Front later, maybe even next spring. This is a 2nd story roof with a 4 1/2 to 12 pitch. If I had my druthers, I would open it up, reframe to 12 and 12 and install a continuous shed dormer on the back and 3 dormers on the front for light and make it a 3rd floor with a deck overlooking the back yard. I would use the Advantech decking and rubber roofing on the shallow slope dormer. But that's just dreaming. I did the lower single story roof over the garage a few years ago, and saved the shingles needed to do this roof. Been putting it off because scared of heights. Even considered fall protection, but I'm getting acclimated.
I have plastic ridge vent pieces, so will eliminate the 3 individual roof vents.
There are two materials I am going to make decisions on. First is the water barrier. The main thing this does, is to prevent water intrusion through the roof deck, when ice dams back meltwater up under the shingles. This happens mostly where overhangs cause a transition between the unheated overhang, and roof areas over the heated spaces that are, warmer. The main function is that it seals around nails and provides a barrier. So thickness of the membrane is important. There are other options besides Grace that have the same material and thickness. How well it sticks to the deck is not as important because the deck is boards to begin with, and once shingles are down, it doesn't matter. I will use one of them to save money. It isn't really useful to cover the entire deck with it because ice dams don't typically cause water backup further up the roof. But it might be useful to extend it more than the typical 3'.
The other material to choose is the actual underlayment. This is not a waterproof material, no matter what you choose. Tar paper actually absorbs moisture, but the 30# provides some cushioning and helps with uneven decks like mine. I always use the 30#. But it can wrinkle and tear, so I'm considering the newer materials. These are also just water resistant, and after nailing are not leak proof from ice dam backup after shingles are installed. The advantages to me are the fact that they don't absorb moisture, don't wrinkle and resist tearing when installing. Being thinner then the 30# paper, I worry they will telegraph the uneven board decking through the shingles. New shingles are real thin. What was up there was 2 layers. The upper layer was typical thin shingles that had deteriorated into loose scraps and pieces. Underneath was a very thick old shingle that bridged imperfections well. It was so thick, that the newer shingles on top actually laid on them in waves.
By the way, new shingles are 3 tab and I'm not worried about warranty, just doing a good, workmanlike job. Biggest worry was the eaves, which were done without any venting. No edge metal and wood shakes were used to build up the eave. This area is wet and rotted. Rafter tails were rotting out and water was getting into the wall. That's why I'm going to all the trouble to extend the rafter tails. Will also pack out the rakes to get some small overhang there. May run some ice and water there.
Bill
extend your rafter tails, wrap the ice and water protection over the ends of the tails before the facia is put on. Be sure the ice and water extends at least 3 feet past the wall/roof line, not just 3 feet from the edge. The other advantage of the newer underlayment is it does not tear under you , much safer if you have to walk over it. It is
also much lighter in weight, important at my age.
also much lighter in weight, important at my age.
krcoomer
Well-known member
Bill: Given you have explained your situation I would use the one run of Grace (Lowes around here sells some other stuff that costs more than Grace at the supply house per square) along the gutter line and call it a day with the gable ends.
For your damaged 1X, set your circular saw to 3/4" depth of cut and go halfway between adjoining rafters to repair and replace holes unless you will only have one cavity covered with the remainder and then replace that length also. Square up and clean your cuts with a chisel. I use a speed square to mark a cut line so it is somewhat square. Nail off each end with 3 #8 nails. A lot of nails, but beats the hell out of falling through later. I would still go with the 30# felt because it will help, but not prevent a leak if you have a shingle breach. It also is like a lubricant strip for when the shingles expand and contract due to the heat. You are a north of me, but when you have a sunny day with 90 degree temps on the ground, your shingles may be at 160 or more. Add a quick cool rain and they contract enough to cause a little motion.
You mentioned not liking the heights. Even a 2X toe board will give you something to push off of if you do slip. Also helps keep hammers and especially chisels from taking a 2 story fall.
For your damaged 1X, set your circular saw to 3/4" depth of cut and go halfway between adjoining rafters to repair and replace holes unless you will only have one cavity covered with the remainder and then replace that length also. Square up and clean your cuts with a chisel. I use a speed square to mark a cut line so it is somewhat square. Nail off each end with 3 #8 nails. A lot of nails, but beats the hell out of falling through later. I would still go with the 30# felt because it will help, but not prevent a leak if you have a shingle breach. It also is like a lubricant strip for when the shingles expand and contract due to the heat. You are a north of me, but when you have a sunny day with 90 degree temps on the ground, your shingles may be at 160 or more. Add a quick cool rain and they contract enough to cause a little motion.
You mentioned not liking the heights. Even a 2X toe board will give you something to push off of if you do slip. Also helps keep hammers and especially chisels from taking a 2 story fall.
jav
Well-known member
I just did my new garage roof (25x42 3/12 pitch). Best "value" in my area was 3/4 T&G OSB (about $14/sheet in full pallets) and Grace select (about .30c/sq. ft). I'm doing grace on the entire roof and what I like is that once the Grace is down, the garage is essentially leak free... even while you shingle the roof.
BTW- check local roof supply houses. I purchased 13 square of architectural shingles (close out previous generation color with full 30 year warranty for 1/2 price (about $50/square). Box stores were more than double that for similar grade shingles.
BTW- check local roof supply houses. I purchased 13 square of architectural shingles (close out previous generation color with full 30 year warranty for 1/2 price (about $50/square). Box stores were more than double that for similar grade shingles.
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jconnor3
Well-known member
Sounds like this is what you want. Grace Tri-Flex. It's what I used on my house a month ago and it was great. Way better than normal felt and not nearly as expensive as Ice & Water Shield.
It's a good "in-between" product - Better than felt, but not as good or as expensive as I&W.
It was awesome to put down and it being a 250ft light weight roll was really nice as well. It was good to walk on once down as well. I was a little unsure at first, but after a few minutes I was confident in it and even walked on it when a little rain came up. Wouldn't recommend that obviously, but had to finish.
Also, this was exposed for a month and not a single drop came through and we had several big rains with wind.
Read the reviews on the product, everyone seems to have a good opinion of it that have used it.
http://www.lowes.com/pd/48-in-x-250-ft-1000-sq-ft-Polypropylene-Roof-Underlayment/3151833
It's a good "in-between" product - Better than felt, but not as good or as expensive as I&W.
It was awesome to put down and it being a 250ft light weight roll was really nice as well. It was good to walk on once down as well. I was a little unsure at first, but after a few minutes I was confident in it and even walked on it when a little rain came up. Wouldn't recommend that obviously, but had to finish.
Also, this was exposed for a month and not a single drop came through and we had several big rains with wind.
Read the reviews on the product, everyone seems to have a good opinion of it that have used it.
http://www.lowes.com/pd/48-in-x-250-ft-1000-sq-ft-Polypropylene-Roof-Underlayment/3151833
ssdave
Banned
Bill, you've got it right. Just have to make a decision based on your economic constraints.
Ice and water shield at the bottom, up to at least 30 inches above the edge of the wall, or to above your heated/unheated interface if you have knee walls in the attic. Then, underlayment. No sense in putting ice and water shield over the whole thing, it doesn't go on as flat and as well as underlayment, and can tear and deform over boards like you have. It's a pain to work on, also, because it's soft and sticky, and you always worry about sinking into it and tearing or deforming it. The synthetic underlayments have the advantage that they don't tear off in the wind, and are essentially waterproof; they buy you time to get the shingles on. They are slick, so getting the slip proof feature is important. I think it is increasingly important to use them over boards, as they won't tear as easily and bridge the imperfections better.
Ice and water shield at the bottom, up to at least 30 inches above the edge of the wall, or to above your heated/unheated interface if you have knee walls in the attic. Then, underlayment. No sense in putting ice and water shield over the whole thing, it doesn't go on as flat and as well as underlayment, and can tear and deform over boards like you have. It's a pain to work on, also, because it's soft and sticky, and you always worry about sinking into it and tearing or deforming it. The synthetic underlayments have the advantage that they don't tear off in the wind, and are essentially waterproof; they buy you time to get the shingles on. They are slick, so getting the slip proof feature is important. I think it is increasingly important to use them over boards, as they won't tear as easily and bridge the imperfections better.
strutaeng
Well-known member
OP, the Grace Ice & Water Shield is excellent stuff. In my world, it is only recommended in the valleys. We don't have ice dam problems here.
My roofer just did my small home and used a GAF slip resistance underlayment (Felt Buster or something like that) for one half and 15 lb felt for the other. He happened to have the GAF at hand he told me.
Long story short, I had two consecutive overnight storms and both underlayments served their purpose and prevented water infiltration before shingles were installed.
What I have read is that underlayment is just for keeping the roof protected until the shingles are installed.
I had read an article that was talking about how some felt paper is not ASTM tested, being the lowest cost, and some that is.
Are you concerned about melting snow getting below the shingles?
Good Luck!
My roofer just did my small home and used a GAF slip resistance underlayment (Felt Buster or something like that) for one half and 15 lb felt for the other. He happened to have the GAF at hand he told me.
Long story short, I had two consecutive overnight storms and both underlayments served their purpose and prevented water infiltration before shingles were installed.
What I have read is that underlayment is just for keeping the roof protected until the shingles are installed.
I had read an article that was talking about how some felt paper is not ASTM tested, being the lowest cost, and some that is.
Are you concerned about melting snow getting below the shingles?
Good Luck!
Jess
Well-known member
I am receiving competitive quotes for replacing my 25 yr old cedar shake roof. One of the options was a roof conversion to fibreglass shingles. They propose to strip the shakes to the board strapping, which as gaps of 1" between boards, redeck with 3/8 plywood, full synthetic underlay and 30 yr shingles. I am still waiting on their quote for standing seem metal. A contractor friend of mine does peel and stick on the whole roof, which dries it in as soon as its sheeted and lets the rest of the job move on rather than waiting it out for the roofers. I may go that route myself.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
The biggest cause of ice dams in our area is gutters ! Not replacing then will cut that down a lot ! Make sure to knock any icicles off as soon as they form.
You will get a lot of splash on the ground which maybe an issue for your siding.
Yes, ice dams were so big they pulled my gutters half off.
It's a brick house so no worries about splashing. Still have lower gutters over entries.
Been doing some more research. Ice dams can still happen no matter what. The shield products shield water from getting in. The most important thing is that they seal around nails and provide a barrier for the deck.
Theoldwizard1 mentioned that Grace is rubber and others are polypro. I believe this is the cover portion, and the sticky part, that adheres to the nails, is the sticky asphaltic backing that sticks to the deck. Both of these are 40mil, for Grace and the GAF products. And both products are similar in weight. I'm going to read some comparative reviews, and make a decision
Also, I don't see a reason to use anything else under the shingles. 3 rolls will do the entire roof.
Update:
Talked to the Grace rep and got technical info comparing his to the GAF. It is a superior product in some ways. And I read a number of consumer reviews. Almost all the negative ones were because of difficulty installing, and that partly because of inept installers.
For a 2/3 upcharge for the Grace, I'm going to chose the GAF as it's good enough for my purposes.
Bill
csp
Well-known member
Water and ice is no better for brick and mortar than it is for siding.
So why did you ask about sheathing in the first post???
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Picked up 2 rolls of the GAF Stormguard.
$84 each at HD. Will need one more to finish the other side.
It looks substantial and sticky and thick enough.
Should do fine. 3 rolls does the whole roof.
The high tech underlayments seem to be glorified Tyvek. Too thin.
I'm satisfied this will be better than 30 pound tar paper.
No problem sealing the whole deck. I have good ventilation.
Bill
$84 each at HD. Will need one more to finish the other side.
It looks substantial and sticky and thick enough.
Should do fine. 3 rolls does the whole roof.
The high tech underlayments seem to be glorified Tyvek. Too thin.
I'm satisfied this will be better than 30 pound tar paper.
No problem sealing the whole deck. I have good ventilation.
Bill
Today's update.
Pulled almost all the nails that were left except a few too close to the eave edge.
Double tarped the roof because rain is due today and tomorrow, and it's raining now.
After it quits tomorrow, it on to the rafter tails and sheathing work.
Need to pick up 5 or 6 pieces of white aluminum edge metal. HD credit cards are maxed, so Lowes it is.
Bill
Pulled almost all the nails that were left except a few too close to the eave edge.
Double tarped the roof because rain is due today and tomorrow, and it's raining now.
After it quits tomorrow, it on to the rafter tails and sheathing work.
Need to pick up 5 or 6 pieces of white aluminum edge metal. HD credit cards are maxed, so Lowes it is.
Bill
matt_i
Well-known member
I disagree and here is why: 99.9% of the houses around me have gutters, even many of them historic agricultural barns....and they aren't ripped off by ice dams....if you have that issue you have a serious heat loss issue! Keep the roof cold and the heat inside as well as possible. As my Dad told me as a young boy, if a house has icicles hanging off it its bleeding heated air like mad.
This is true. And I had exactly that, even without any overhangs. The dams were so big the weight of the ice bent the gutters so they were hanging down a foot or more. Fascias were rotted behind the coil metal covering them, so just tore it all off.
Have since insulated and dams are minimal if there at all.
Bill
Elginz
Well-known member
Gutters are to protect the foundation, not the siding, although it may help with that too.