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rotten fence posts

rieferman

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I have major ground water at my house. Clay soil, underground natural springs. Holes dug for fence posts fill up at least a few inches with water 100% of the year.

So, 5 years ago, I just went for it with a split rail fence. The pressure treated pine variety that you can get at Depot or Lowes. Pea gravel in the bottom of each hole (which was entirely under water), no concrete mix.

And now, I can walk up to any of the posts, push, and it'll break off clean at the ground. This issue only exists on one side of my property, so 75% of my fence is fine, and 25% needs replaced.


I still want a split rail fence, and the water issue still exists.

Fence specialty company suggested their locust posts (rather than the PT pine I had before) but still warned that they'd rot with that much moisture.

What do you think? (please only legal answers... my dad was suggesting all sorts of nasty chemicals which aren't available commonly)
 
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porphyre

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Ground contact PT or non-ground contact PT?

If you did not use the Ground Contact PT.... depending on how many posts we're talking, I'd be tempted to re-do with ground contact rated PT posts and check on it in 5 more years.
 

KEH

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Go with the locust, use posts a large as possible.

I assume you would be buying from a reliable supplier. Be aware that, in SC at least, there are 2 types of locust. The variety you want has rough grey bark, thorns, and white flowers in the spring, also NO FRUIT. The other variety is called the honey locust and it has long fruity pods with large seeds in them. Possums and **** eat them and deposit the seed in their droppings. Cows and I suppose horses like the pods also. Old timers would gather the pods and make locust beer. You do not want posts from them because they are NOT decay resistant. The bark is mostly grey but has a reddish brown underlayer. That variety has a LOT of thorns.

The good locust, called black locust, should last a lot longer that 5 years. I'm surprised that your treated posts didn't last longer, you must have gotton poorer quality that was not pressure treated thickly.

KEH
 
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rieferman

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Brian - Thanks! I'll definitely consider that solution, that could work perfectly. Another benefit of this approach is that I could reuse my existing posts and just cut off the rotten portion that would normally be in the ground.

Porphyre - This is a split rail fence, so the posts are specifically designed for ground contact (i.e. these aren't a 4x4 posts that I repurposed).
 

ibedayank

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rieferman
they do sell a oil based paint that you use to treat the posts like whats used on telephone poles before you install them
down here we use cedar
 
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rieferman

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Thanks guys. After this experience buying from borgs, I will buy my fence supplies from the local high quality fencing specialist. They confirmed the posts are locust, but didn't specify black locust - I'll check when they call back.

I think borgs have their usefulness, but more and more I'm finding that I have far more success going to specialty stores for most important products.
 

Pointbock

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Any old farmers around? Their current posts are probably all steel "T" posts but the guys 50+ should remember putting in wood posts when they were younger. I'd bet that 90% were black locust.

Most split rail that I've seen is cedar (posts and rails,) and I've seen tamarack/larch used as well.
 

Rosco

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i had a similar issue helping a freind out. Only 2 post holes were wet. We dug it out good and placed thick plastic in the hole (doubled 6 mil) then painted the botton 2' of the post (several coats). Put post in ground and filled with 80 lbs of concrete. Post have been there 7 years holding strong. If the soil is holding water, then the gravel is just letting the water get to the post faster. Normally gravel helps, but only to drain the soil around the post. The plastic/paint will slow the water intrusion considerably.
 

big.jim

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try using metpost sockets they are spikes with a 4x4 socket for your existing post or even use concrete posts
 

1320stang

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You could cover the part that goes into the ground with tar, but the top end of the post will take on water as well.

Used to be a lot of landscape timbers used as fence posts around here for privacy fence (I never knew they were landscape timbers, I'd only ever seen them used as fence posts!!!) but since they have those brackets for steel corner posts, that's all I use.
 

justanengineer

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Any old farmers around? Their current posts are probably all steel "T" posts but the guys 50+ should remember putting in wood posts when they were younger. I'd bet that 90% were black locust.

Most split rail that I've seen is cedar (posts and rails,) and I've seen tamarack/larch used as well.

I grew up on the farm am only 27 but have done a bit of fencing. IMHO, locust isnt too bad, but still doesnt hold up like cedar. Find some pressure treated cedar, unless you are planning on tarring the post, and expect to do them again in about 10 years. If you do a lot, a hydraulic post pounder is very nice to have.
 
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theoldwizard1

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Coal tar creosote. That's what the utilities use. I don't know where you can buy it, and you would probably have to fill a garbage can full and then let the posts soak in it for several days. To be effective it has to go far enough up the post so that it will be a foot or more above the ground. Not necessarily very attractive.
 

ForceFed70

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You could also try putting concrete in the holes.

I had to replace my fence recently due to the posts rotting out. For some reason, the pervious homeowner only cemented every 2nd post. I was surprised to find that the concreted posts were still in good shape but the direct burried posts (also PT pine) would all break off at ground level with ease (or were already broke).
 

kartracer23

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Question about the other end of posts...
Neighbor and I are installing a 6' fence. Posts are 4 x 4 treated (not sure what treatment). 10 ft. with 3 ft. underground so the top will have to be trimmed. Is there anything we need to put on after we cut the tops? Plan is to let it sit until fall and then use an opaque stain on it so we can't use anything that will interfere with that. And there will be a cap rail, but I'm sure water will still get to the cut tops.

I remember helping a friend build a fence a long time ago and we coated all the cuts with something - but I can't remember what it was.
 

srmofo

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what about fixing the problem not the symptoms? Install a french drain down the post line? maybe down to a retaining pond or basin? Without pictures, Im just guessing but other than that, I would be installing the metal post holders.
 

crankshaftdan II

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If you have that much water around the post holes all year long-I would doubt even vinyl posts would break down rapidly. I installed a 6' pressure treated decking fence about 15 years ago. Used Immature 10' cedar posts-6' up-4' in the ground-treated 4.5' with Behr oil based pressure treated sealer. I have clay wet-mucky ground with tons of lime stone rock mixed in-holds water into August every year! I took pea gravel and tamped it around each post (Approx. 6" dia.) out to approximately 6" around diameter. Did not use concrete as it tends to hold moisure year round-pea gravel should drain if you have the proper slope. I have NOT had a failure yet!!:thumbup:
 

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Grumpy365

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Don't use landscape timbers!

It even says on the timber on the little white tag stapled to the timber, don't put the end in the ground (that may not be a quote, but it's the jest of it).

I let someone talk me into using them for post for a nice ranch fence i built and I hate them ever dang day.
 
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70redbee

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I agree with Rosco. Do not use gravel,it just holds the moisture. Paint the posts with tar to ground level and wrap with poly. You want to keep the water off the wood and then pour concrete to above ground level. Hold grade to above surrounding soil and slope away from posts. Hope this helps and good luck.
 
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rieferman

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srmofo wrote:
what about fixing the problem not the symptoms? Install a french drain down the post line?

I agree. We're over $7,000 into that solution already and I'm not spending another dime on it for this portion of the yard. We have a full gravel field under about 75% of the yard, complete with piping. All roof surfaces are piped directly into the system, and we have a surface drains strategically around the yard. Even with all of that, we have a swamp in certain portions of the yard for March and April each year, and then are dry (on the surface, wet 6 inches down still)) for the rest of the year.

We just finished filling in a gulley and bringing our elevation up over 8 feet on a 1/3 of an acre on our property. That portion is dry as a bone (4 triax of drainage stone, pipe, pourous fill, and then top soil) and can be fenced normally. But, this one problem portion is right on the property line and not worth more expense in trying to tame mother nature for sake of fencing - I think the metal spikes method is the way to go there.

As for setting the metal spikes... Seems to me like pouring mixed concrete into a post hole, and then pushing the spike into that would make for a rock solid solution. Overkill? Or worth the effort? (most of my holes are already dug)
 

theoldwizard1

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what about fixing the problem not the symptoms? Install a french drain down the post line? maybe down to a retaining pond or basin?
Good answer, but you have to have a place lower than the fence line that is dry that you can run the french drain to.

On my little 1/4 acre, I run it to the back corner of the lot (away from the house and garage). I spring, I have to pump out the basin.
 

Frank The Plumber

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I have used the stake end posts, rot in about 2 years.
I have used a flashing cement to cover the post bottom and sealed it completely, still rots.
If you can't drain the area using drain tile I would go with a synthetic post, maybe a playground plastic. No wood product will last, the microbes in the ground just defeat all we throw at them.
 

yellowdartdave

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One of my old neighbors in Ohio had the same problem.

He finally dipped the ground ends in a 55 gal. barrel of fiberglass resin and also applied some to the tops of the post with a brush.
They lasted about 15 or 16 years until the natural decay of the wood finally rotted the center section. Of course, he worked at Fiberglass Evercoat and
he used a barrel full of a bad batch that did not meet specs so he recycled it in a way that worked pretty good.
Now he has plastic resin fence posts.
 

MoonRise

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srmofo wrote:


I agree. We're over $7,000 into that solution already and I'm not spending another dime on it for this portion of the yard. We have a full gravel field under about 75% of the yard, complete with piping. All roof surfaces are piped directly into the system, and we have a surface drains strategically around the yard. Even with all of that, we have a swamp in certain portions of the yard for March and April each year, and then are dry (on the surface, wet 6 inches down still)) for the rest of the year.

We just finished filling in a gulley and bringing our elevation up over 8 feet on a 1/3 of an acre on our property. That portion is dry as a bone (4 triax of drainage stone, pipe, pourous fill, and then top soil) and can be fenced normally. But, this one problem portion is right on the property line and not worth more expense in trying to tame mother nature for sake of fencing - I think the metal spikes method is the way to go there.

As for setting the metal spikes... Seems to me like pouring mixed concrete into a post hole, and then pushing the spike into that would make for a rock solid solution. Overkill? Or worth the effort? (most of my holes are already dug)

Pressure treated posts that were rated/treated for ground contact or below-grade use should not have rotted out that fast. The 'old' CCA rating was 0.40 for ground/below-ground usage. Don't know what level or chemical mix your posts were. But I -have- seen so-called 'pressure treated' wood on the stacks that on checking the FinePrint of the product label (and it was in actual fine, small font, print Grrrr ) that said 'pressure treated wood' was NOT rated for ground contact or below-grade use.

Then again, I have also seen (and experienced, first hand) carpenter ants happily (or at least repeatedly and continuously) gnawing and tunneling and nesting right through some 0.40 CCA-treated rated-for-below-grade-use 2x lumber. Grrrrr again.

Except for exempted industrial/commercial use, CCA-treated wood is unavailable for residential use in the US since Jan 1, 2004. The 'main' replacement treatments since then are mostly ACQ or CA-B and CA-C. Note that because of the increased levels of copper in the 'new' treated wood, they are ~3-5x more corrosive to steel than the old CCA treated wood and thus require the use of hot-dipped galvanized or double/triple zinc coated or stainless or other 'approved' coatings on fasteners/hardware that is used with the 'new' treated lumber. (also note, NO use of aluminum, such as flashing or hardware or fasteners, with the 'new' treated lumber.)

http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/corrosion.html

Regarding concrete and water, concrete is porous and holds water. Putting a wooden fence post or a metal (steel) post or spike into concrete that is sitting in wet water-laden ground WILL rot or rust that post or spike. Unless the post or spike is very rot/rust resistant to begin with.

Cedar (eastern or western red) or black locust are naturally "rot resistant", but that only really applies to the heartwood. The sapwood of those species is NOT rot resistant.

Sloping a concrete post footing only would have any benficial effect if the ground/soil can actually drain. Since you state that your soil is pretty much wet year-round (combination of clay and high local water table), sloping the top of a concrete post footing will do NOTHING for the existing ground water.

Those Ox-Post pieces are made to drive into the ground without having to dig a post hole and then the 4x4 goes into the socket on top. Used something similar years ago for a mailbox post. It was tough to drive dead plumb (always had a bit of a twist and was off plumb, Grrr) and although it was painted/coated (but no HD galvanized) from the factory, it rusted out in a few short years. And that was in ground that actually drains! Also, if you have rocks in the ground (or big rockes, or boulders), you CAN-NOT drive those things into the ground or drive them straight or drive them plumb.

Your call as to how much time, effort, and money to spend. Both up-front and in maintenance/repair/replacement.

If the ground is that wet and PT posts aren't lasting, I'd say to check into doing plastic posts filled with concrete (plastic posts by themselves have to generally be reinforced internally with wood or steel or concrete, and wood and steel sound like they are not good choices for your wet ground).

http://www.hooverfence.com/vinyl_fence/concrete-post.htm

Strength of concrete (no rot or rust issues, barring any rebar or such) and a plastic-wrapped outside for appearance (may or may not fit in with your 'look'). Also possible issue of chalking, cracking, or other weathering (UV) issues long-term with plastic exposure to weather and especially sunlight.

Again, your call.
 
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rieferman

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moonrise wrote:
Those Ox-Post pieces are made to drive into the ground without having to dig a post hole and then the 4x4 goes into the socket on top. Used something similar years ago for a mailbox post. It was tough to drive dead plumb (always had a bit of a twist and was off plumb, Grrr) and although it was painted/coated (but no HD galvanized) from the factory, it rusted out in a few short years. And that was in ground that actually drains! Also, if you have rocks in the ground (or big rockes, or boulders), you CAN-NOT drive those things into the ground or drive them straight or drive them plumb.

According to the link provided earlier in this thread, the metal spikes are hot dipped galvanized steel. Wouldn't this prevent the issue of the spike rusting/rotting in the ground?

http://www.hooverfence.com/catalog/hardware/oz-post/wood.htm

Also, I have post holes dug already since I'm repairing a fence that already existed. My proposal is to fill those existing holes with mixed concrete, and then set the spikes into the concrete. My feeling being that this would be very strong, and that it would allow precise setting of the spikes. Wouldn't this get around the other issues you mention?

(that is, I'm not seeing how the metal spikes idea won't work)
 

MoonRise

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moonrise wrote:


According to the link provided earlier in this thread, the metal spikes are hot dipped galvanized steel. Wouldn't this prevent the issue of the spike rusting/rotting in the ground?

http://www.hooverfence.com/catalog/hardware/oz-post/wood.htm

Also, I have post holes dug already since I'm repairing a fence that already existed. My proposal is to fill those existing holes with mixed concrete, and then set the spikes into the concrete. My feeling being that this would be very strong, and that it would allow precise setting of the spikes. Wouldn't this get around the other issues you mention?

(that is, I'm not seeing how the metal spikes idea won't work)

Sort of, but not quite. :lol_hitti

The idea of the various 'post anchors' that go into or on top of a concrete post footing/pier is to get the wood out of the ground and ABOVE the (wet) concrete. Wet concrete as in water wet/damp, not "uncured concrete".

Galvanized steel sure is better and will (or should) last longer than painted/coated steel, but sticking a piece of steel into the ground is always a tough environment for the steel. Because ...

Rust never sleeps. :lol_hitti

Also, note that most often the steel post anchors are NOT rated for fence posts as they have minimal resistance to twisting or racking.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/AB-ABA-ABE-ABU.asp

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/BC.asp

Again, your call as to how much you want to do (time, money, and effort) for your fence. :beer:

As I mentioned, I'd lean toward the concrete-filled plastic fence posts from what you have said.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/qa/preventing-fence-post-rot.aspx

Note the part in that article that mentions wood and concrete and wet ground all being a tough/bad combination for the wood. Even 'rot resistant' wood.
 
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rieferman

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I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the website specifically calls out that this particular product is designed for fencing applications, and offers a 25 year warranty. The point of the product is to prevent rot issues and hold a fence securely.

Aesthetically, I have split rail on 3 side of my yard. Only one side is an issue. So, I can't just switch to another product there without it looking out of place. Therefore, I want to figure out a way to make split rail work on that side.

In terms of time... My holes are already dug, so mixing a couple bags of concrete is about an hour's worth of work for me. Pushing anchors into freshly mixed concrete is a couple minutes per hole. Then wait a day and install my posts. Split rail fences don't catch wind gusts, so it should be plenty strong.

In terms of money... The anchors cost the same as a wooden replacement post... which have already proven ineffective in this application (so I won't spend on those again).. and since my existing posts broke just below ground level (and are otherwise strong still) I can just fresh cut them to proper length and attach them. A few bags of concrete is under $50 total.

So, I guess I'm still not seeing the weakness with this particular product. It seemingly has the specifications and warranty that I'd want in a product for this application. Perhaps other products that are similar (but NOT the same) would not work, but that's another conversation.
 

george2c

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soak the bottom 1/3 of the locust post in a 5 gallon bucket of oil. we do this and it sure helps..
 

MoonRise

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Not argueing, and I didn't take your part to be either. :beer:

Wood post in wet ground = rotten wood post

As you found out.

Solutions?

Dry the ground? Not easy in your situation. You already raised the grade 8 ft in other areas.

Rot resistant materials? Wood will rot, steel wil rust. Plastic won't, but may be damaged by weathering and UV and sounds like it won't fit into your existing fenceline visually/stylistically. Concrete won't rot.

Get the posts out of the ground? Good idea, just make sure the attachment between the posts and the anchor and the ground are all up to the task. Again, depending on the 'service duty' of the fence.

Simpson's product listing pretty much all disclaim use of their "post bases" for fencing purposes, because of twisting.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/categories/post_bases.html

I can verify that such sheet metal strap anchors DO indeed allow twisting of posts about the vertical axis, to varying degrees. Such twisting may or may not matter in your case, but Simpson isn't listing their post bases for fence purposes. Caveat emptor.

Another source (no endorsement either for or against) with some pictures of different post bases:

http://www.amnsun.com/Product_construction metal_post anchor.asp

Again, your call on how you want to proceed.

I agree that getting the wooden posts out of the wet ground -should- be helpful in keeping the wood from rotting. But you will still need to use rot-resistant (and insect resistant) wood. And note my previous comment about the corrosiveness of the 'new' PT woods against metal fasteners and hardware.

:beer:
 

babzog

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Have you tried white cedar? The ground around here is sodden as well, but the cedar has excellent rot resistance. I pulled some 8" logs from an old retaining wall and only the outer inch or so was rotted... been there about 18 years.
 

babzog

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Another option is to build a jackleg fence. But, rather than just crossing two posts and running the rails down one side (making an angled face to your fence), the best idea I've seen for one is to take the two crossed posts (the posts extend out to the sides) and add two more crossing at 90 deg (essentially, making a + when viewed from the top). The advantage here is that your fence rails attach to the second set of angled posts that allow your fence to be vertical. Hard to explain, check out this crude drawing. The rails (blue) attach to the second set of posts (red) that, when two bucks (what the whole post arrangement is called) are set in position, are in line with each other, allowing a vertical drop to the fence. Traditionally, the rails would attach to the two (black) posts that are normally the only component of the buck, but that means an angled face to your fence.

jackleg fence.jpg

These kinds of fences are normally used on rocky terrain where sinking a post is impossible, but I see no reason why your couldn't use it on very wet terrain. They do take longer to build, but are very interesting to look at when complete.
 

Keith_MN

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I did steel posts when I built my fence. I built an expensive cedar fence and did wanted to make sure I was not going to have rotten posts. Think of how many road signs are put in with hot dipped galvanized posts across this country. They hold up really well.
 

GoodoleBoy

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Install a pvc pipe that is sealed at the bottom in the hole, then install wood post inside it..
water proof at underground levels..

Use some sealant or tar above ground to keep water from coming in the from the top.
 

Beaumont67

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I got the same problem, several fence posts rotted off and ground holds water.

I was thinking of replacing the 4x4" PT posts with 6x6" WHITE OAK...opinions please ?
- white oak is normally found in century homes, on the front door threshold

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1965 Malibu S/S, 1966 Beaumont Custom original paint, 1967 Beaumont Custom, 1967 Beaumont Custom original paint, 1967 Beaumont 396-350HP Sport Deluxe M21-411's - SOLD 1970 Judge
 

nit2wn

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Install a pvc pipe that is sealed at the bottom in the hole, then install wood post inside it..
water proof at underground levels..

Use some sealant or tar above ground to keep water from coming in the from the top.

This sounds like the best deal. Place the post into 6'' pvc pipe [capped on one end] concreting them into the pipe, then install the whole assembly into the ground with 2'' of the plastic piping above the ground. You can always spray some Thompson's water seal on it before you concrete them into the plastic.
 

Thruxton

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We use 4X4 unmilled PT pine (4X4 true size), 8' long and no pointy end for board fence, use a ram to drive them 3 1/2 feet in- this is standard in this part of the country for board fence. In our bottom fields we hit water around 3 feet, (used to use an auger, sometimes still use a manual posthole digger for repairs) sometimes less, but these posts hold up well. They won't last forever, no wood fence post does, but I figure on 20 - 25 years for most. A lot of the old fencing on this farm was locust (black) and it is good, but here in VA not only will it ultimately rot, too, it is very susceptible to termites- amazing how quickly they can do a post in! I don't have any personal experience with cedar but I've heard it's ok, almost nobody uses it for horse or livestock fencing around here so I just don't know about it. One thing about treated posts DO NOT use normal hardware if you nail anything together, use galvanized or hardware specifically coated for use in PT wood. A common nail will rot out in two years in treated stuff outside.
 

little jimmy

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Rieferman, how many post do you have to replace? I just read this and was thinking you could possibly pick up some steel tubeing that would do the same thing as the spikes. Since you are puting it in concrete it would be easy and I would guess it would be stronger with four sides instead of just the spike. How ever you do it based on your past work it will work out just fine.
 
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rieferman

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Sorry, I didn't see the reply until just now.

I have about 6-7 posts that will need this solution, so it's not too bad overall. The rest of the yard is higher ground so the water issue is managed there. The 8-post package from that one website is $100, so without even shopping around yet it's pretty reasonable.

How ever you do it based on your past work it will work out just fine.

:) Thanks!
 
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