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Rough in is Rough

ForceFed70

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Just started rough in wiring on my detached garage and have a few questions

Using 12/2 wg wire with 20 amp receptacles

Looking at the picture below is this a acceptable way to hook the ground to a metal box?

Also should there be more twists in the hots and neutral wires
before I secure them with a wire nut?

Disclaimer: My spelling *****, and I am not a professional electrician. But I have spent time working for an electrical company and have wired in more than my fair share of plugs, fixtures, etc.

Overall your wiring looks good from those pictures. I'd be happy to have it in my garage.

If I was to do it:
- I'd add a little more twist to the wires. This can generally be done just by twisting the connector (especially with our kick-*** Canadian connectors) more untill it binds good and the wires start twisting instead of the connector
- I'd loop both the supply and feed ground wires through a ground screw instead of just one of them.
- It's hard to tell from the pics, but it is a good idea to leave a little extra wire in the wall in case you need to pull more into the box someday. It doesn't look as pretty, but you'll be covering it up anyway.

These suggestions are just minor improvements, but they won't cost you anything.
 
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Berserker

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It doesn't make a difference, but I like using green wire nuts, cause they got the hole in the top to pull the ground through for the device. Sometimes I will cut the grounds not going to the device shorter and leave one wire long. Depends on gauge of the wire and room.

I've seen it both ways, I just find its easier, with a green.
 

RoadBeater

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I think the boxes and lighting layout look very good. Should be nice to work in, and never have to worry about blowing any breakers.

I also twist the nut enough for the wires to twist, but I tend to overdo everything anyway.

Just my $.02 from a homeowner hack electrician wannabe....
 
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Ludacriss

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What type of clamps are those? Never seen them before. I think you may have different stuff in Canada. Your NM cable looks different too. Are those boxes too close to the window sill? Will you have to contend with molding?

They are made by IBERVILLE. The plastic tab in the middle is on a 45degree
Angle once the wire slides in its not coming back out unless you push
up on the tab with a screw driver.
As for the molding I should have a 1/4 inch space.



- I'd loop both the supply and feed ground wires through a ground screw instead of just one of them.
- It's hard to tell from the pics, but it is a good idea to leave a little extra wire in the wall in case you need to pull more into the box someday. It doesn't look as pretty, but you'll be covering it up anyway.

These suggestions are just minor improvements, but they won't cost you anything.




Thanks for the reply ForceFed70

Going to take your advice on the grounds and loop the supply and feed ground
Wires through a ground screw.


They make a "greenie" nut for grounds, it has a hole in the middle where you can let one of the strands pass thru the top, or add a pigtail out the top of the wirenut.

Charles

I asked for them at a local electrical supplier, They had no idea what I was asking for.
Said they never seen them...


Ludacriss.
how many feet of wire do think you'll use

Bought two spools of 12/2 at 75 meters or roughly 250 ft a spool
That will do all the 20 amp circuits.
One spool of 14/2 75 meters or 250 ft will work for the receptacles and lighting.
 

Grumpy365

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The talk of ground wire nuts / scotch locks / wire-nuts / twist lock or whatever you want to call them, brings up the question of why wire nut a ground at all.

When i wired my house i used scotch locks on the ground, but is it really necessary? It's a metal box, and bare wire that is wired directly to the metal box. If you have a good twist on the ground conductors (holding the conductor together) wire nuts seems like a waste of material.
 

bww_mnm

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OP, I'm asking you/forum vs giving suggestion/guidance. Can't you just connect the "in" and "out" 12g feeds into "push in connectors" on back of outlet vs pigtailing. That's what my builder did on my 15A 14g wires. Would save a the pigtailing / extra wiring.

Also, the install looks really clean. I'm redoing my basement and hope my rough in looks as good as yours.

- Brad
 
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Gooch

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OP, I'm asking you/forum vs giving suggestion/guidance. Can't you just connect the "in" and "out" 12g feeds into "push in connectors" on back of outlet vs pigtailing. That's what my builder did on my 15A 14g wires. Would save a the pigtailing / extra wiring.

Also, the install looks really clean. I'm redoing my basement and hope my rough in looks as good as yours.

- Brad

you 'can' do this, but generally not a good idea. by doing pigtails, continuity down stream isn't affected by removal of device. Also not a fan of the back wire devices, loop em and put it under the screw is the only way to go. Unless it uses a clamp for the back wire device instead of the spring style. even then i wouldn't use it for solid wire.
 

MrMark

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you 'can' do this, but generally not a good idea. by doing pigtails, continuity down stream isn't affected by removal of device. Also not a fan of the back wire devices, loop em and put it under the screw is the only way to go. Unless it uses a clamp for the back wire device instead of the spring style. even then i wouldn't use it for solid wire.

That's exactly the way I would do it.
 

Berserker

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As far as the devices that you push the wire in, instead, of using the screw terminals. I used to against them. Mostly just cause I was fighting change. I was working for a master, he wanted me to use them. You could say thats for speed.

Have you ever tried to pull a wire out of those? Also no exposed conductors. Technology advances. I can't remember if used them or not last time.

Though when you use the screws, make sure you do it, so that the screw tightens the connections. Wrap the wire clockwise. When you tighten the screw it will pull the wire in tighter.
 

Berserker

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The only thing we disagreed on is, the linemans pliers. All I am saying, its a bit over kill on 12 and 14. IMO you want the wires to twist, from just the nut, show the nut is grabbing.
 

MrMark

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You know I was talking about pre-twist, right? I know that Ideal doesn't require pre-twist and only requires the nut be turned until several twists appear in the wire outside of the nut like you said. I need the linesmans to pre-twist the coppers together, I just feel like that gives a more solid connection that does not depend on the nut to stay together. I have seen nuts that fell off.

What do you do with a grouping a solids and stranded? I twist the stranded together and just insert the stranded like match sticks next of the twisted solids with the stranded leading just a hair. I never twist stranded.
 
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Berserker

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Maybe I am lost here. What's pre twist? Twisting the wire before the wire nut? Never done that. I haven't worked as an electrician in 10 years, but I can't imagine romex has changed that much.

I am sure it would help, but again I think its a bit over kill. Only time I have seen it done, is taped connections.
 

MrMark

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Maybe I am lost here. What's pre twist? Twisting the wire before the wire nut? Never done that. I haven't worked as an electrician in 10 years, but I can't imagine romex has changed that much.

I am sure it would help, but again I think its a bit over kill. Only time I have seen it done, is taped connections.

OK, I see what was going on. You thought I was twisting the wire nut itself with the linemans and therefore I was a woos? No, I wasn't doing that, even though if I were I don't think it would make me a woos. I have never actually put a pliers on a wing nut.

Pre-twisting is twisting the stripped copper ends, usually stripped 1 inch, together. I really wish you would forget the manly man stuff. Real manly men don't care about being perceived as manly men. Just a little advice.

I've never taped a nut, although I've read on here that it is a good idea on a motor connection because of vibration and I've read that in some instructions too.


So what about that poor Test Engineer???? Why does he get the special treatment???
 
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Berserker

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So what about that poor Test Engineer???? Why does he get the special treatment???

The office, plant, and field engineers went salary, thinking it would lead to advancement. It didn't. Lots of middle level salary out there.

The test engineer does technician work but also does more advanced stuff. In the past the transmission and generation was engineer, with distribution being technician. Not so anymore, they just started hiring engineers to be technicians, at lower wages.

I am in a gray area. The equipment is mine until I turn it over. So I get to bang it around. Existing equipment that is being tested requires rubber gloves. I operate with disconnects open, but I cannot rack or close into isolation devices that grounded. I can't rack breakers into a bus that is grounded, because that requires gloves, based on how we defy isolation.

I operate the equipment with the disconnects open, visible break, or racked into the test position, which also provides an air gap.
 

Bull

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I got a message to come in here and take care of some drama. There was a lot of it.

Rules for the site include: no personal insults.

Failure to observe this rule will result in a temporary ban. A pattern of this behavior will result in a permanent ban.

The OP has good questions that don't need to be clouded by personal conflicts and spelling instruction.
 

Gigfy

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"OK, I see what was going on. You thought I was twisting the wire nut itself"

That's what I thought too. I didn't realize you were twisting before you put the wire nut on.

I went down and looked at some boxes of wire nuts. I notice not only Ideal, but Gardner Bender "winged" wire nuts don't require pre-twisting either.

BTW, I hate those "non-winged" Ideal nuts if you're doing a lot at one time. They'll make your fingers sore from twisting them. Although they do take up less space and are easier to get in the box, which is nice.
 
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Ludacriss

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This is a good read for others wanting to tackle their own wiring project


Common Mistakes Made By The DIY Electrician





There is nothing more rewarding then to be able to tell others that you did it yourself, knowing that you did it correctly. The problem is that with electrical work, just because something works does not mean that you have done it correctly. Professional electricians serve a rigorous apprenticeship under one or more master electricians to learn how to do it right. The DIY electrician must learn to do it right by reading books. Books are excellent, but there are many things that they do not explain in detail that leads to mistakes. We will look at the eight most common mistakes made by the new DIY

Mistake Number One: Working Without A Permit

The National Electrical Code (NEC) and the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) allow the resident homeowner to do almost everything that a licensed professional electrician can do as long as the resident homeowner abides by the same rules. By resident homeowner, we mean that you not only own home but that you are the one residing in it. If you own home but use it as rental property, you cannot legally do any electrical work on the property.

You purchase a wiring permit from the AHJ; your municipal building permits department. At the time, you purchase your wiring permit; you schedule the required inspections to be performed by the AHJ on your work. As a rule, a minimum of two inspections has to be performed, a rough in inspection and a finish inspection. You should not start any wiring project until you have a wiring permit and post it on site as required.

Mistake Number Two: Not Protecting Wiring From Nails And Screws

You can run cables through holes and notches drilled or cut in framing members. You can secure cables to the sides of framing members. You must drill the holes so that the near edges of the holes are a minimum of 1 and ¼ inches back from the nearest edge of the framing member. If a 1 and ¼ inch setback is not possible, the NEC requires the use of steel nailing plates to protect the cables from nail damage. Cover cables laid in notches with 1/16 inch thick, UL Approved, steel nailing plates.

You can run cables along the side of a framing member as long as they are setback at least 1 and ¼ inches from the nearest edge of the framing member. You may need to use 3-M Stackers to satisfy this requirement when running multiple cables. The 3-M Stacker allows you to place the cables on top of one another instead of having to place them side by side.

Mistake Number Three: Do Not Mix Low Voltage Wiring With Line Voltage Wiring.

When roughing in electrical wiring, do not mix line-voltage wiring with low-voltage wiring. You should run them through separate holes drilled at least 6 inches apart. You should not run them into the same device box or junction box unless the box is equipped with a separator designed for that purpose. Mixing line-voltage and low-voltage wiring together is not only a Code violation it can cause other problems. A hum will be induced on telephone and audio-video wiring. Home automation systems can be destroyed if line-voltage wiring comes into electrical contact with line-voltage wiring.

Mistake Number Four: Do Not Pull Too Many Wire Through One Hole

Pull cables through holes but do not damage their outer jacket. The inspector will look for such damage and will make you replace all those cables before passing you wiring job. A good rule of thumb is never run more than three cables per 7/8-inch hole.

Mistake Number Five: Do Not Stuff Too Many Wires In A Device Box or Junction Box

The number of wires that you can have in a device box or junction box depends on a number of factors, the volume of the box, the size of the wires, and the number and type of other devices in the box. There is a mathematical method to calculating the size box required but that is beyond the scope of this article. For now the NEC have tables to help you select the right box for your wiring project. I will do an article on this subject in the near future.

Overcrowding a box causes the wires to overheat a potential fire hazard.

Mistake Number Six: Use A Junction Box (J-Box) When Extending Wiring

The made most often is installing a J-Box where it will become inaccessible without removing part of the building finish. You must install the J-Box where it will remain accessible, which is a NEC requirement. Placing a J-Box inside floors, walls, or ceilings is a code violation.

Mistake Number Seven: Do Not Cover Recessed Lighting Fixtures With Insulation

You should always read the labels before installing any electric fixture. Never cover recessed lighting fixtures with insulation unless it is IC Rated. You must keep the insulation a minimum of 3 inches away from any non-IC Rated recessed fixture to keep them from overheating and becoming a fire hazard. If you are installing non-IC Rated recessed lighting fixture in an insulated ceiling during a remodel, block the insulation so it cannot spring back to cover the fixture.

Mistake Number Eight: Running Along Or Across The Exposed Faces Of Beams

Do not run cable along or across the exposed beams unless "Guard Boards" protect them. Guard boards are boards placed on each side of the cables to protect them from damage. The safest practice is to run the cables through holes drilled in the beams when the cable run perpendicular to them and along their sides when the cable runs parallel to them.

There are many other mistakes that beginners make and the only way to avoid them is to study the NEC. The NEC is the electrician’s Bible and you must study it religiously if you want to know with confidence what you can and cannot do electrically.


Here's One more


tfi racing08-07-2008, 12:04 AM
No drilling the trusses!If running parallel to the trusses,staple the cable to the side of the truss.When running the other way,keep your wires close to the eaves as possible and just let them lay there,if they need to be near the center run them beside the strapping that goes from truss to truss,again no staples necessary,on this side of the border anyways,your code may vary.
 
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Ludacriss

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Just picked up some fluorescent lithonia wraplites T8 4' 2bulb 32w

Looking at the instructions for mounting these it states

Power connections Must Be Made In Junction box-Not In Fixture…


The light fixture has two perforated circular access holes

One is 7/8 and the other is 2"
The reason i ask is...

you cant bury a box behind a fluorescent fixture if the fixture is attached to anything other than the box -you have to have a hole in the fixture that makes the entire box accessible.


Is it ok to knock the 2" hole out and mount the light flush to the ceiling
With the opening in the fixture right over the octagon box, is this accessible enough
Or is this considered hiding an electrical box.



Here is the instructions
 

tfi racing

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Power connections Must Be Made In Junction box-Not In Fixture…

That's something new,we have been making the connections inside the fixture for decades and will likely continue to do so,but to answer your other question,covering up the octagon box with the fixture is acceptable in these parts,if you use the 1/2" KO you should use a plastic bushing.
 

Grumpy365

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If you look up at a row of surface mounted lights, you see conduit going thru the lights (end to end). I assure you they are making the connection in the box.
 

Grumpy365

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Is this wrong????^^^^^^^^

If so how and why.

It was just in response to this

Just picked up some fluorescent lithonia wraplites T8 4' 2bulb 32w

Looking at the instructions for mounting these it states

Power connections Must Be Made In Junction box-Not In Fixture…

It was just an attempt to show how common it is to make a junction in the fixture.

I don't know if it rite or wrong.
 
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Ludacriss

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If you look up at a row of surface mounted lights, you see conduit going thru the lights (end to end). I assure you they are making the connection in the box.

I know what you are saying about the connections in the fixture,
I had seen it quite a few times myself.

Just seems odd that the sticker on the inside of these lights state
No connections in fixture.

The model # of the lights is 3348 they are a low profile
Wrap around

Hard wiring is the way I planed to go, but brakes are on now
After reading the warning sticker.


Allot of the ones I’ve seen that are hard wired have a separate panel below the
Lights were the ballast is.

Just wondering if this is the reason with these lights are not allowed
To be hard wired as there is no separation between the lights and wiring.
That is just a guess by me.
 

NUTTSGT

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Just picked up some fluorescent lithonia wraplites T8 4' 2bulb 32w

Looking at the instructions for mounting these it states

Power connections Must Be Made In Junction box-Not In Fixture…

Since it is a wraplite, does it just have the plastic cover (diffuser) over the bulbs and ballast ? If there is no metal cover, to encase it in metal, may be the reason for the external box to make the connection in.
 
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Ludacriss

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Since it is a wraplite, does it just have the plastic cover (diffuser) over the bulbs and ballast ? If there is no metal cover, to encase it in metal, may be the reason for the external box to make the connection in.

Yes only the plastic diffuser covers the lights and ballast.
 

falconflyer04

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Nov 20, 2009
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Quebec, Canada
I've bought the same light... I am stuck at the same stage now...trying to figure out how to fit the damn fixture centered with the box or fitting the box with where I want the fixture! It seems that how ever I try to fit it, I always hit right in the middle of a beam for the position of the box!

Would it still be ok to hardwire them!?
 

falconflyer04

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Quebec, Canada
Here's a picture of the same fixture and the problem I am having too... Would it be okay to knock out a 2" hole elsewhere in the fixture instead of opening the center one since that no matter how I fit it, the opening will always fall in a beam!?

I also wonder what's the reason for not being able to hardwire them in the fixture!?

photo0477b.jpg
 

Charles (in GA)

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50 mi south of Atlanta
They make a "greenie" nut for grounds, it has a hole in the middle where you can let one of the strands pass thru the top, or add a pigtail out the top of the wirenut.

I asked for them at a local electrical supplier, They had no idea what I was asking for.
Said they never seen them...

Sounds like not much of an electrical supplier. Most have a large Ideal brand display on the sales counter floor and all the different wire nuts are there, including the Greenies. In fact, the word Greenie® is a registered trademark of Ideal.

http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=greenie-grounding-connectors&div=0&l1=grounding

30-092.jpg


Charles
 
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Ludacriss

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Hello falconflyer04


Here is the way I ended up doing the rough in for mine.

Wasn’t my original plan but seems to work out ok.

Lights will screw into the 2x4 cross pieces and fixture hole will
Line up with the box and hide it.



 

falconflyer04

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Quebec, Canada
Yeah! Your idea sounds fine and I thought about this but my fixture needs to be mounted the other way around in relation to the beams... So I may add a 2x4 nailed to the side of the beam so it shifts the fixture to the side and let me install the junction box into the middle beam.
 
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Ludacriss

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Little update passed the rough in inspection with no problems
I would like to thank everyone that helped me out.

The inspector asked what’s with all the GFCI.. Thought it was
a good idea, but not needed in my area, only the outside receptacles
need to be GFCI.

Just waiting for the ground to thaw so I can trench in the
Power from house to garage.
The inspector wants me to use 1/0 useI-90 for my 100 Amp service







 

nehog

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The welder circuits are 240/ 50 amp for my mig
...

What sized breaker on those "50" amp circuits? If 50 amp breaker, then you can't use 8 AWG (too small). The breaker must be sized to the weakest 'link' in the system, which is almost always the wire...
 
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