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Routers.....appearently Sears doesn't have them...lol

nismomans13

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So i was looking for a new router and i had some sears gift cards and figured why not.

so i mosey on in, and find a salesman and ask

me "excuse me, where are the routers'

Salesman "oh, we don't carry those here sir, you should check radio shack or best buy'

me 'uhhh ok, thanks man'

and people say high schools getting rid of shop classes doesn't have any real impact. Last time i checked people don't shop at sears for home networking solutions. At least not in the tool department.
 
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dumper

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he's right! I just bought a wireless router at "the Shack!" Hahahahaa. Maybe he is one of those whizkid computer experts, hiding out at Sears. Maybe not, since Sears sells both kinds of routers.
 
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murph3204

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bought some router bits at sears recently for my old craftsman router. didn't notice if they had routers for sale though.
 

Coach James

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There are a lot of guys in their 40's and 50's that wouldn't know what a wood working router is either. No suprise that their 20 something year old kids wouldn't know either.

Coach
 
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nismomans13

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on the drive home i was trying to think of other tools that might confuse him and just go back randomly and ask for them.
 

Techniker

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You should read this book:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FShop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry-Value%2Fdp%2F0143117467%3Fie%3DUTF8%26qid%3D1299212899%26sr%3D8-1&tag=thesciesnote-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325">Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work [Paperback]</a><img src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=thesciesnote-20&l=ur2&o=1" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="" style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" />

I think everyone here would appreciate it. It talks about how/why shop classes were phased out of America for computer classes and how the only true work is the job that produces something. I can't do it justice so here's an editorial review from the description:

Philosopher and motorcycle mechanic Crawford presents a fascinating, important analysis of the value of hard work and manufacturing. He reminds readers that in the 1990s vocational education (shop class) started to become a thing of the past as U.S. educators prepared students for the "knowledge revolution." Thus, an entire generation of American "thinkers" cannot, he says, do anything, and this is a threat to manufacturing, the fundamental backbone of economic development. Crawford makes real the experience of working with one's hands to make and fix things and the importance of skilled labor. His philosophical background is evident as he muses on how to live a pragmatic, concrete life in today's ever more abstract world and issues a clarion call for reviving trade and skill development classes in American preparatory schools. The result is inspired social criticism and deep personal exploration. Crawford's work will appeal to fans of Robert Pirsig's classic Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and should be required reading for all educational leaders. Highly recommended; Crawford's appreciation for various trades may intrigue readers with white collar jobs who wonder at the end of each day what they really accomplished.
- Library Journal

-Techniker
 

davidj

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wow. i would have snapped. i usually dont ever ask for help because that is the typical response you would get...
 
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nismomans13

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You should read this book:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FShop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry-Value%2Fdp%2F0143117467%3Fie%3DUTF8%26qid%3D1299212899%26sr%3D8-1&tag=thesciesnote-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325">Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work [Paperback]</a><img src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=thesciesnote-20&l=ur2&o=1" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="" style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" />

I think everyone here would appreciate it. It talks about how/why shop classes were phased out of America for computer classes and how the only true work is the job that produces something. I can't do it justice so here's an editorial review from the description:



-Techniker

I'll be picking that up. Because it quite honestly disgusts me that the classes and programs that made me who I am today don't exist anymore. I won't toot my own horn, but I make a rather decent life as a welder in the local boilermakers. I only work 6 months a year and bring home more than most of my friends or families do in a whole year.

Somewhere in the past decade kids were taught that doing work with your bare hands and sweat is below you. Well guess what kids, you need a building before you can work in an office. I can't stand the generation of kids out in the field now, they have no drive, determination, they want money for nothing. I was taught to work hard and have pride in my work no matter how meaningless it might be to me. IT was still done by me, and reflects on me.
 
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Techniker

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I'll be picking that up. Because it quite honestly disgusts me that the classes and programs that made me who I am today don't exist anymore. I won't toot my own horn, but I make a rather decent life as a welder in the local boilermakers. I only work 6 months a year and bring home more than most of my friends or families do in a whole year.

Somewhere in the past decade kids were taught that doing work with your bare hands and sweat is below you. Well guess what kids, you need a building before you can work in an office. I can't stand the generation of kids out in the field now, they have no drive, determination, they want money for nothing. I was taught to work hard and have pride in my work no matter how meaningless it might be to me. IT was still done by me, and reflects on me.

Trust me, you'll love this book then. It's quite possibly one of the best books I have ever read- you will find yourself nodding with agreement as you read it. One of my favorite lines in the book is when he points out that when you need a deck built or your car fixed, the Chinese and Indians aren't of much help to you.

I graduated from an Ivy League undergrad in engineering and I'm still embarrassed about how many of my classmates couldn't actually change a spare tire. We were even looked down upon slightly by the "Academics" (the liberal arts professors) because we actually worked (defined by actually designing and producing physical items) for a career when we graduated. :rolleyes:

-Techniker
 

bchee

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Ask him, "do you know if the best buy routers can build wood cabinets?"
 

Cheapskate

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Trust me, you'll love this book then. It's quite possibly one of the best books I have ever read- you will find yourself nodding with agreement as you read it. One of my favorite lines in the book is when he points out that when you need a deck built or your car fixed, the Chinese and Indians aren't of much help to you.

I graduated from an Ivy League undergrad in engineering and I'm still embarrassed about how many of my classmates couldn't actually change a spare tire. We were even looked down upon slightly by the "Academics" (the liberal arts professors) because we actually worked (defined by actually designing and producing physical items) for a career when we graduated. :rolleyes:

-Techniker

I worked with an engineer who had a Minor in electrical engineering and he asked to borrow my meter. I handed him my Fluke and he just stared at it. I said "You've never had a multimeter in your hand before have you?" to which he replied "Nope". How can you have a degree in EE and have never used a meter? I asked him if there was any "Hands on" training in school and he said no, only theory. :headscrat
 

Ray-CA

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I think that everyone in the US needs to watch this.

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Mike Rowe, (from "Dirty Jobs") talks about the loss of young people willing to get their hands dirty. It's about 20-minutes long, but worth every second.

Ray
 

TireTracks

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Yakima,Washington.
Our sears has a full isle of them, and bits. ON sale and they have banners up.

You would think he might have seen one, or is he illiterate too.
 
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Techniker

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I worked with an engineer who had a Minor in electrical engineering and he asked to borrow my meter. I handed him my Fluke and he just stared at it. I said "You've never had a multimeter in your hand before have you?" to which he replied "Nope". How can you have a degree in EE and have never used a meter? I asked him if there was any "Hands on" training in school and he said no, only theory. :headscrat

I could definitely believe it. It's scary but true. Also, the term "engineering" is fairly unregulated and varies quite a bit from school to school and, in a lot of places, borders more on technician than engineer (when I see someone saying they're starting 'engineering school' and asking what tools they need, I instantly start to think that). Before everyone starts to jump on me, I'm not looking down on technicians, I'm just saying there is a vast difference between being a technician and being an engineer. That being said, you still need to have at least some hands-on knowledge in the field you are going to be an engineer in. A good engineering school does this.

The term minor is even worse, a lot of schools let you take a mere two or three classes in a subject and declare it a minor! :shocking:

Even still, how someone could be a EE minor and have never used a scope, but especially a multimeter, is beyond me. If nothing else it should have certainly been done in his physics labs and it really does call into question that degree.

-Techniker
 

Toolhorder

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That book looks like a great read.
It hits home for me actually. I'm a mechanic for a living and a couple years ago I wanted to take Motorcycle maintenance classes at a local community college. It took me awhile because I would go for a semester then take one off back, etc.. When it's busy at the dealer I worked for in the summer I couldn't go.
Anyway a couple years goes by and I notice the classes are getting harder to get to get my classes done for an A.S. degree. I asked and was told they are cutting back the program. This program is full all the time. It's one of the only programs for motorcycles in a community college vs. MTI or one of the go into dept. pay colleges.
I ask why and the head of the program says because the admins want to move the motorcycle classes off campus and turn the shop into a computer lab. WTF? How many computer labs do they need? It's bad enough they never have tools or bikes to work on. Not sure how it's going anymore since I finished all the classes but about a year ago I donated a DVOM to the program and an old bike. I just don't get these hippy idiots in the power seat at these colleges. :mad:
 

Techniker

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Just wait until your old motorcycle tech classroom/shop is converted into a classroom for art history...:spit:

The problem is with the goals of our educational system and the way it is set up to meet those goals. This is the only time I will ever say that we should be more like Europe. In the US, public school education is geared toward getting as many student into college (what the Europeans really would call "university" as possible), regardless of what those students will get a degree in. In Europe, public school education is more geared toward settling you in a career. From what I understand from friends in Europe, if you're not on the track for a career that requires a university degree (the sciences, engineering, medicine, nursing, etc.), you spend the last few years of your public education taking classes to prepare you for your career and apprenticing in it.

It makes a lot of sense really and thankfully I'm starting to see a lot of schools go over to this system with dual enrollment programs and tech schools in high school.

This is why I see colleges here in the US as more of a pyramid scheme. I mean, for the vast majority of college graduates, how is it even necessary for them to go to college? All they will end up doing is taking on debts so high that they end up in the modern-day equivalent of debtor's prison for the rest of their lives and their degree will be of no use for them whatsoever. Nursing majors work in the nursing industry, engineers work in the manufacturing industries, but what do English majors do? Work in the English mines? What about art history majors? Work in the art history mills? Where's the sociology industry? Is there a sociology factory?

So the students end up in an absolutely useless major for undergrad, and because they can't find a job in it, what are they doing now? They're taking on more debt and going to grad school. Keep touching the stove. What did their professors do? They couldn't find a job with their degree so they had to convince other people to major in it so they could teach it. Those people then get that degree and end up in the same boat so they recruit more people as well. There's the pyramid scheme.

Also, if you're looking for another book, this was referenced in the Shopcraft as Soulcraft book; it's on my list of books to read this break but I haven't had a chance to read it yet:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FZen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry%2Fdp%2F0061673730%3Fie%3DUTF8%26qid%3D1299242347%26sr%3D8-1&tag=thesciesnote-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325">Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values (P.S.) [Paperback]</a><img src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=thesciesnote-20&l=ur2&o=1" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="" style="border:none !important; margin:0px !important;" />

In his now classic Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert Pirsig brings us a literary chautauqua, a novel that is meant to both entertain and edify. It scores high on both counts.
Phaedrus, our narrator, takes a present-tense cross-country motorcycle trip with his son during which the maintenance of the motorcycle becomes an illustration of how we can unify the cold, rational realm of technology with the warm, imaginative realm of artistry. As in Zen, the trick is to become one with the activity, to engage in it fully, to see and appreciate all details--be it hiking in the woods, penning an essay, or tightening the chain on a motorcycle.

In his autobiographical first novel, Pirsig wrestles both with the ghost of his past and with the most important philosophical questions of the 20th century--why has technology alienated us from our world? what are the limits of rational analysis? if we can't define the good, how can we live it? Unfortunately, while exploring the defects of our philosophical heritage from Socrates and the Sophists to Hume and Kant, Pirsig inexplicably stops at the middle of the 19th century. With the exception of Poincaré, he ignores the more recent philosophers who have tackled his most urgent questions, thinkers such as Peirce, Nietzsche (to whom Phaedrus bears a passing resemblance), Heidegger, Whitehead, Dewey, Sartre, Wittgenstein, and Kuhn. In the end, the narrator's claims to originality turn out to be overstated, his reasoning questionable, and his understanding of the history of Western thought sketchy. His solution to a synthesis of the rational and creative by elevating Quality to a metaphysical level simply repeats the mistakes of the premodern philosophers. But in contrast to most other philosophers, Pirsig writes a compelling story. And he is a true innovator in his attempt to popularize a reconciliation of Eastern mindfulness and nonrationalism with Western subject/object dualism. The magic of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance turns out to lie not in the answers it gives, but in the questions it raises and the way it raises them. Like a cross between The Razor's Edge and Sophie's World, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance takes us into "the high country of the mind" and opens our eyes to vistas of possibility. --Brian Bruya

Good luck everyone,
Techniker
 

ramtuff

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I think that everyone in the US needs to watch this.

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Mike Rowe, (from "Dirty Jobs") talks about the loss of young people willing to get their hands dirty. It's about 20-minutes long, but worth every second.

Ray

Thanks for sharing that. :thumbup:
 
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nismomans13

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If you ask me, there's no such thing as a meaningless job. If its a job, it needs done and needs done right. One of the problems i see is parents today too, they just don't take an active part in their childrens life. My daughter is only 8 months old and I already can't wait until she's in school so i can take an active part in her education and go to board meetings to see whats going on.

The education system in this country is flawed to say it nicely. When i was in high school i was into auto mechanics, wood shop and all the other 'elective' classes but my parents never really set the example that it was ok to make a living doing that. To this day it still boggles my mind that classes like shop aren't required to graduate, but gym is. I'm not knocking health and fitness by any means as I think its very important and I spend many hours a week at the gym. But realistically, gym (a required to graduate class) prepared me for nothing in life. Not one time on a job interview did they ask how fast i can run the mile, or if I have experience playing basketball with 20 other 17 year old guys, nor do my formans ask me that either.
 

Toolhorder

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One of my favorite lines in the book is when he points out that when you need a deck built or your car fixed, the Chinese and Indians aren't of much help to you.


I was thinking about the above statement and I think that the left in this country think the illegals from the south will be a perfect fit....
Before I left Honda they had started factory online training in Spanish. WTF would they do that when our primary language in this country is english? Cheap labor is why. Why just have them empty the trash when maybe you can train them to work on cars too...
 

Alchymist

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Not just sure how to break it to you guys - but the "management & bean counter" types will always make the money and garner the respect. Everywhere I have worked ( and I've worked a lot of places) people on the technical side made less money and had less authority than the "boss". Still I stuck to the technical side because I loved the work and couldn't stand the politics on the other side of the fence.

Put it this way - if you ever get stranded on a desert isle - who do you want with you - the guy with the PHD in management or the worker with a pocket knife?
 
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