Routing Power for my Home Shop

[Brandon314159]

The Loads-
24x36 shop, single or dual user. 50A welder, electric forklift charger, 240V parts washer (30A), 5HP+ compressor, 1.4kW in LED lighting, various other electrical toys and an RV plug. Heat will either become split unit or natural gas.

Power-
I have a single-phase residential 200A drop into an Eaton CH setup (meter, 200A breaker, and a load center for adding other feeds) hanging on the house with 2" conduit headed inside to the main (Eaton CH also) 200A panel for the residence.

Hardware-
I harvested a small fortune in SquareD QO breakers so will be sourcing a panel (all of my panels are 3-phase or main lug) to drop into the shop. Going to snag a 200A 30-space because they're fairly cheap and the more space the better. I haven't decided if I'm going to run 200A capable wireset or plop in a 100A wire/breaker for now (availability and favors for wire will likely steer that decision). I do know I want to run 2" conduit.

The Issue-
The route from the meter/center to the shop is...less than ideal. As the crow flies it's quite close (40-50ft) yet the house is met with finished exposed aggregate concrete driveway/parking area...with mesh...and rebar (Prior owner was a concrete guy). I don't want to go under the pad because I own a forklift and regularly park large vehicles (18K/axle) and it would be sad to cut a slice out of it and also risk a water ingress point into my currently dry finished basement.

That leaves me with the option of running conduit down the side of the house, over a back-yard walkway, along a fence, and into the shop. My issue is that this would add up to quite a few 90degree turns.

The Question-
If using Type LB or Pull Boxes can you get past the max of 360 degrees in a single conduit run? I can't see any way to make this conduit run 360 or less without slicing up my concrete big-time or routing the conduit across a gate/walkway at eye level.

Final Thoughts-
I considered going overhead but keeping the sky clear on that side of the house for vehicles and forklift is pretty paramount. Will be pulling copper (not aluminium). Routing though the main panel of the house saves me no headaches because the conduit run passes along the same wall where the main panel is located.

Thank you in advance for the wisdom.

P.S. Cu wire size recommendation to handle 200A with what will end up being a ~55-60ft run after all the turns (if I can do them). If I have to buy wire (the only stuff I have right now is 6awg) it might as well be once. Thanks!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Some FYIs- the panel INSIDE your house is considered a subanel NOT the main which is on the outside where the disconnect is.

Aluminum feeders are perfectly fine. Why dont u want to use aluminum? It will save u some dough.

Why are u using 3-phase panels for a single phase service?

If u want to use the SQ D QO breakers u will need a SQ D O panel. Cant use SQ D breakers in other makes of panels.

If u use pull boxes and LBs the degree count resets.

For 200a u will need 3/0 cu or 250Kcmil AL. EGC can be #6 cu or #4 al.

U will need 2 rods at the shop and also need to make sure the neutral bus bar is isolated. u may need a separate ground bar kit if the panel doesnt come with one.

The panel in the shop needs to have a main breaker- it cant be a main lug.

U should do a load calc on the house and shop to make sure 200a is enough for both especially since u will have 2 people in the shop and u have some decent loads

 

[Brandon314159]

Panel in mind is a single phase (I just mentioned that all I had were 3-phase that were salvaged). So I do have to purchase one.

Great info on the Pull Boxes/LBs...I was having a hard time finding that information.

The plan is to push a couple rods into the ground the next time the excavator is over. It's compacted recycle for the first few inches in the corner where the panel will be so could be interesting.

Our home loads are pretty reasonable...the house used to have electric heat so it was all set up for that massive load (has since been replaced by 95% nat gas). Other than a 2ton AC unit and an electric oven/range & dryer, the rest is all small stuff.

I don't expect to need to fire up my BuzzBox as the same time as the Wire-Feed..and even if so it'd likely be much lower powers (not full tilt).

Wyliesdiesels, thank you for the info!

 

[Dr Stan]

I had a second meter installed on my shop, but then all I had was 100 amps at the house. I have to pay around $5.00/month for the 2nd meter, but I believe its more than worth it as I have 200 amp service in the shop.

 

[Brandon314159]

I thought about doing a 2nd service but the shop isn't a consistent monetary generator and there is no decent path underground (pole to garage) without cutting up my driveway or removing trees/etc.

Interesting note that my neighbor and I are served off some old wiring on the power company side. What appears to be 10awg solid wire (x2) running from the next pole holding the transformer north feeding our two houses. There is about 14 homes on two transformers on our block. If the neighbors HVAC kicks on our lights flicker...I'm putting my money on a weak neutral connection at our pole. Had the power company come out and test and he said it's 'on the edge' but they were unwilling to correct it. A neutral opening up is bad for my appliances but it'll be there dime if it does after all the warning I gave them.

 

[matt_i]

One thing...I wouldnt put an LB or a C- under ground. It has a gasket and ss screws but I don't think I'd trust it underground. Also I found some bugaboos in pushing the metal fish tape thru a 2" PVC conduit run, it kept wanting to get snagged on the flat end of the conduit which was glued up into a belled/expanded end. I probably should have taken out a file or deburring tool and beveled the ID of the sweep that got glued into the belled end. Since in my case the large diameter has potential for future circuits, after finally jamming in the fish tape, I also pulled a 3/16" rope into the conduit...which you could put in ahead of time as you glue it up.

 

[Brandon314159]

Thoughts on how to connect up a set of 3/0 cables in this box?

There are subfeed lug locations up top but are on the same bus-bar as the lug sub-feed to the house (which you can see at the bottom). Is that kosher to connect there? Those bus bars are fed via the 200A main breaker (which is connected to the meter base on the left).

The 15A single breaker and outlet will be going away.

 

[dw1]

Thoughts on how to connect up a set of 3/0 cables in this box?

There are subfeed lug locations up top but are on the same bus-bar as the lug sub-feed to the house (which you can see at the bottom). Is that kosher to connect there? Those bus bars are fed via the 200A main breaker (which is connected to the meter base on the left).

The 15A single breaker and outlet will be going away.

You only have a 200 amp service coming in, its going to be your only choice to land those wires, install lugs at the top of that panel.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If the neighbors HVAC kicks on our lights flicker...

Contact you PoCo again. Get names. dates and times. INSIST on a 24 hour monitor in you house for at least 5 days.

If they refuse, get in touch with who ever in your county/state regulates the public utilities. Again, get names, dates and time. They may ask to do an "informal" investigation, but get a date when this will be completed and when a formal complaint will be filled.

This will take time, probably a couple of months. but I suspect something will change, in your favor !

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I thought about doing a 2nd service but the shop isn't a consistent monetary generator and there is no decent path underground (pole to garage) without cutting up my driveway or removing trees/etc.

Interesting note that my neighbor and I are served off some old wiring on the power company side. What appears to be 10awg solid wire (x2) running from the next pole holding the transformer north feeding our two houses. There is about 14 homes on two transformers on our block. If the neighbors HVAC kicks on our lights flicker...I'm putting my money on a weak neutral connection at our pole. Had the power company come out and test and he said it's 'on the edge' but they were unwilling to correct it. A neutral opening up is bad for my appliances but it'll be there dime if it does after all the warning I gave them.

No way is that a sign of a bad neutral connection.

The AC is 240v so its a sign that the transformer cant handle in-rush current. Or u have a bad connection on the hot legs.

The smaller gauge wire is nothing to be concerned about if its the primary wires youre talking about. Those are high voltage, probably 4160v or 7.2Kv and carry low current compared to your main service size.

Do u have a multimeter that can do high low avg metering? If so u can use that to monitor how low the voltage goes on your service.

Any chance that the transformer feeding your house is labeled with the capacity on the front?

Thoughts on how to connect up a set of 3/0 cables in this box?

There are subfeed lug locations up top but are on the same bus-bar as the lug sub-feed to the house (which you can see at the bottom). Is that kosher to connect there? Those bus bars are fed via the 200A main breaker (which is connected to the meter base on the left).

The 15A single breaker and outlet will be going away.

Either a bolt on lug on the bus bar or a breaker.

 

[Brandon314159]

No way is that a sign of a bad neutral connection.

The AC is 240v so its a sign that the transformer cant handle in-rush current. Or u have a bad connection on the hot legs.

The smaller gauge wire is nothing to be concerned about if its the primary wires youre talking about. Those are high voltage, probably 4160v or 7.2Kv and carry low current compared to your main service size.

Do u have a multimeter that can do high low avg metering? If so u can use that to monitor how low the voltage goes on your service.

Any chance that the transformer feeding your house is labeled with the capacity on the front?



Either a bolt on lug on the bus bar or a breaker.

These are service wires feeding the two houses (and many others up the street on the other side of the transformer). 120/240 and filled with splices. Primaries are up top on big-boy insulators. I think they call this a common feeder system? There are two large-ish transformers on either end feeding about 14 homes off these little wires. Photo attached. The primaries up top have a drop on our pole to feed a subdivision behind us.

I've gone through everything on my end (checked torque on all bolts, breakers, etc.) outside what I can't access because it's locked by my PoCo. It's all copper, clean, and tight (fairly new Eaton CH stuff too).

When they came out, they pulled the meter head and put a 50A load on the individual legs. The actual voltage drop was right above their limit so there wasn't much he could do. Didn't appreciate that the neighbors could have a 240V load on and it would dip ours way below their threshold since we share the end of the line. It appears to me that our house (and the neighbors) upgraded our services in the 90's and the PoCo left the common feeder **** strung on our block. The rest of the neighborhood is all upgraded direct-to-transformer.

I have a multimeter with connection to computer so I can log voltages. If I fire up my 120V air compressor the lights bounce to the beat of the compressor in the whole house. That's why I was thinking weak neutral but you're right, that wouldn't explain 240V bumps.

I can't imagine that this worked very well with the large electric heating unit that was installed in the house before the gas furnace. Was fed with dual pairs of 4awg wires at 240V.


Suppose we'll see. I'm going to order a subfeed lug kit for the top of the panel and see what the routing will look like.

 

[ard]

over a back-yard walkway
!

Hows that going to work?

Running PVC in exposed to abuse locations, might need sch80.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

These are service wires feeding the two houses (and many others up the street on the other side of the transformer). 120/240 and filled with splices. Primaries are up top on big-boy insulators. I think they call this a common feeder system? There are two large-ish transformers on either end feeding about 14 homes off these little wires. Photo attached. The primaries up top have a drop on our pole to feed a subdivision behind us.

I've gone through everything on my end (checked torque on all bolts, breakers, etc.) outside what I can't access because it's locked by my PoCo. It's all copper, clean, and tight (fairly new Eaton CH stuff too).

When they came out, they pulled the meter head and put a 50A load on the individual legs. The actual voltage drop was right above their limit so there wasn't much he could do. Didn't appreciate that the neighbors could have a 240V load on and it would dip ours way below their threshold since we share the end of the line. It appears to me that our house (and the neighbors) upgraded our services in the 90's and the PoCo left the common feeder **** strung on our block. The rest of the neighborhood is all upgraded direct-to-transformer.

I have a multimeter with connection to computer so I can log voltages. If I fire up my 120V air compressor the lights bounce to the beat of the compressor in the whole house. That's why I was thinking weak neutral but you're right, that wouldn't explain 240V bumps.

I can't imagine that this worked very well with the large electric heating unit that was installed in the house before the gas furnace. Was fed with dual pairs of 4awg wires at 240V.


Suppose we'll see. I'm going to order a subfeed lug kit for the top of the panel and see what the routing will look like.

That looks like #6 to me. And its free air wire so it has a higher ampacity than the same size building wire.

However that may be too small for 200a.

Heating wont exhibit the same issues as a motor.

Resistive loads dont have in-rush currents like inductive loads do.

I would definitely log your voltage readings. Then hound the poco again and show them your results. You should also find out what their thresholds are. Most Pocos have a 5% range.

 

[Brandon314159]

The kicker is that the wire in the photo is feeding TWO homes (technically 3 because the neighbors on the drop going across the street have a ADU with HVAC too).

I think for them to deal with my issue they'd have to open up pandoras box and upgrade the feeds and add transformers for all 14 homes. I can't imagine they're going to do that without a reason. I'll continue logging. Thanks!

Snagged some conduit pieces to get started on the run. Forgot to check the existing lugs this morning to confirm the part number before ordering the ones for the shop.

 

[Brandon314159]

Hows that going to work?

Running PVC in exposed to abuse locations, might need sch80.

It has a reasonably safe run. Where there is a gate it will route over (affixed to the back porch structure). Then I'll drop down and run along the bottom of the fence on the backyard side. Once I clean up the mess where it's routing I'll post some pics if anyone is interested.

 

[Brandon314159]

Been searching high and low for an extra set of SubFeed lugs for this load center that is in the photos above but can't find a part number. They mount right to the copper bus bars (like at the bottom).

Anyone with more experience or better google talents got some words of wisdom?

Thanks in advance.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Been searching high and low for an extra set of SubFeed lugs for this load center that is in the photos above but can't find a part number. They mount right to the copper bus bars (like at the bottom).

Anyone with more experience or better google talents got some words of wisdom?

Thanks in advance.

Do u have a local Eaton supply house?

If so give them a call give them the panel part number and usually they will do the work to find the correct part for u.

Ive got a local supplier that does this for me when i need parts for older panels

 

[Norcal]

Can you post a photo of the panel label? Cannot read as posted.


Edit: My C-H house panel is similar but no subfeed lugs, otherwise would attempt to read my faded label.

 

[Brandon314159]

EATON CGBT12M2S

I have one set of subfeed lugs in there but need a second. Searching for a Eaton house nearby who won't gouge me.

 

[Norcal]

The label inside the door is what I meant.

 

[Brandon314159]

The label inside the door is what I meant.

I'll snap a better one tonight and post it up.

 

[Brandon314159]

Finished mocking up the conduit run (no glue yet). 6 sweeping bends and 2 LBs (one mid, one at sub-panel). It'll be a fun pull though I'll likely pull in sections and glue it up if it gives me grief. I have nice long lengths of the commercial/poco pull rope/strap.

Run is ~77ft from main to sub.

I got the panel mounted, offset out from the 6" posts by a plywood sheet worth of space if I ever sheet it. Plan on doing all metallic conduit runs down both sides (big power on the panel side of the building, just some lower-power stuff on the other side).

I still haven't found my subfeed lug part numbers...trying to find an Eaton rep that knows their parts.

I didn't plan on buying wire ($$$) but got a deal through a coworker of the father who owns an electric company so struck while the price was good. Running x3 3/0 Cu and x1 6awg Cu green. Getting a couple ground rods pushed in soon so I can land this and stop powering my shop off an extension cord

 

[ard]

Running x3 3/0 Cu and x1 6awg Cu green.

You sure on this?

 

[Brandon314159]

You sure on this?

Is there a problem with that? I am led to believe that NEC 250.122 applies since I am connecting after a 200A main breaker for my subpanel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP- conduit is suppose to be glued before pulling wire.

You sure on this?

Whats the issue?

 

[Brandon314159]

Conduit and cables are completed and all sealed up.

Landed the power over the New Years weekend and finally switched off my single 20A circuit on extension cord that I've been doing most of the build on (the rest came from my RV solar array).

Now to start running some circuits. Thanks for the help folks.