Running a 20AMP circuit to backyard

[Micscience]

Howdy partners I was wondering if there is a certain type of wire required for outside circuits? I was originally going to use 8gauge nm but I found some 8gauge stranded wire on ebay for a good price which would make it a lot cheaper. Would there be a problem with stranded 8 gauge wire?

PS: I need 8 gauge because any circuit longer than 30ft requires 8 gauge according to my welder's manual up to 50ft. I'm trying to weld a go kart frame outside also it's nice to weld outside because of the fumes however I do have it setup for my basement work shop.

 

[pattenp]

Need a little more info as to how you plan on installing this circuit. Is it going to be buried with an outlet on a post or is it going to be above ground in conduit. You could just add an outlet on the house and make up a long extension cord.

Edit: Forgot, NM is not to be used in damp or wet locations.

 

[justsam]

Howdy partners I was wondering if there is a certain type of wire required for outside circuits? I was originally going to use 8gauge nm but I found some 8gauge stranded wire on ebay for a good price which would make it a lot cheaper. Would there be a problem with stranded 8 gauge wire?

PS: I need 8 gauge because any circuit longer than 30ft requires 8 gauge according to my welder's manual up to 50ft. I'm trying to weld a go kart frame outside also it's nice to weld outside because of the fumes however I do have it setup for my basement work shop.

Something is not quite adding up. One would normally not use 8ga and then protect it with a 20 Amp breaker. There is nothing wrong with doing so, but 8 ga in the run lengths you are considering can handle more than 20 Amps with out excessive voltage drop.

You may want to lok at your welder recommendations again. Is this a stick, MIG, or TIG welder? Transformer or Inverter? Are you using 120 or 240 volt?

As stated wire must be rated for wet environment use.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Need a little more info as to how you plan on installing this circuit. Is it going to be buried with an outlet on a post or is it going to be above ground in conduit. You could just add an outlet on the house and make up a long extension cord.

Edit: Forgot, NM is not to be used in damp or wet locations.

UF cable is certified for direct burial or use inside of a properly sized conduit.

Any stranded cable must be rate THWN and installed in conduit.

 

[Micscience]

Ok I'll try to clarify my scenario. I have two ideas of wiring this circuit. Method 1. Run wire from basement panel threw foundation area of house using a conduit then when outside run it underground all the way up to and along side of the shed's foundation in a conduit or pipe and install the outlet. There is a picture of where I would like the outlet. The circuit run will probably be around 45-50feet rough estimate

Method 2. Is the same but instead of running the wire underground maybe add a conduit from the house up to the shed not sure how yet.


About my welder's specs. It's a 120volt 20amp welder however I'd assume 50 feet of circuit would make the voltage drop. These specs I'm using is intended for extension cords though not sure if that makes a difference.

 

[pattenp]

It the welder calls for a 20 amp circuit then you will be fine with running 12/2 UF cable. 50 ft is not enough to worry about voltage drop. With doing 120V @ 20A max, the UF only needs to be buried 12 inches, but the circuit needs to be GFCI protected. That means the GFCI needs to be at the source of the circuit, not at the outlet on the end of the circuit.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Digging the ditch will be the most work. One alternative is to mount the outlet on the outside of the house and then buy good 12 gauge extension cord. Buy a 10 gauge one if it makes you feel better.

If you do decide to dig a ditch, I would go one step further. For about $20 more, use UF 10/3 w/ground. If you have any empty breaker slot (or can make one by installing a tandem breaker) then you can install a 30A 240 breaker so you can run high current 120V equipment and 240V equipment. You will need a small breaker panel in the garage.

If you don't want to wire it for 240V, you can always ignore the red conductor and just wire it for 120V. Make certain to leave extra cable buried outside the garage so if you ever want to

 

[justsam]

Based on your drawing, and my understanding you want a 20 Amp, 120V outlet on the exterior of your shed as shown in picture/drawing.

What power, if any, is already inside the shed? If there that may be the easiest.

If it is not already in the shed, you may want to consider putting power in there at this time with an external outlet in your desired location.

 

[Micscience]

I can use 12/2? I don't understand that damn welder manual then. Maybe those are overkill specs. Anyways that would make things easier for sure because I can get 12/2 at a good price. 12 inches is kind of deep, do you guys see any other way like mounting some type of pole and running the wire up in the air protected by a conduit?


@theoldwizard1 I agree with the 30amp circuit if I dig it up that's what I will do however, why would I need a sub-panel?

@justsam there is no power in the shed at all. Thanks for the idea but for the most part the shed isn't used much for doing work but it would be nice to have its own lighting in there.

PS: this is what the manual says:
(Extension Cords)
1. If an extension cord is used, it must have
the following wire size: up to 30 feet, use
10 AWG size wire; 30 to 50 feet, use 8 AWG
wire; Over 50 feet, use 6 AWG wire.

2. As the distance from the supply outlet increases,
you must use a heavier gauge extension cord.
Using extension cords with inadequately sized
wire causes a serious drop in voltage, resulting
in loss of power and possible welder damage.

thanks in advance guys

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I can use 12/2? I don't understand that damn welder manual then. Maybe those are overkill specs. Anyways that would make things easier for sure because I can get 12/2 at a good price. 12 inches is kind of deep, do you guys see any other way like mounting some type of pole and running the wire up in the air protected by a conduit?


@theoldwizard1 I agree with the 30amp circuit if I dig it up that's what I will do however, why would I need a sub-panel?

@justsam there is no power in the shed at all. Thanks for the idea but for the most part the shed isn't used much for doing work but it would be nice to have its own lighting in there.

PS: this is what the manual says:
(Extension Cords)
1. If an extension cord is used, it must have
the following wire size: up to 30 feet, use
10 AWG size wire; 30 to 50 feet, use 8 AWG
wire; Over 50 feet, use 6 AWG wire.

2. As the distance from the supply outlet increases,
you must use a heavier gauge extension cord.
Using extension cords with inadequately sized
wire causes a serious drop in voltage, resulting
in loss of power and possible welder damage.

thanks in advance guys

No, you understand the manual correctly, but what u dont know is that extension cord ampacity is DIFFERENT than building wire ampacity! Most extension cords are sized one gauge larger than their building wire counterparts for the same ampacity. In other words, #12 NM is rated for 20a but MOST 12 ga extension cords are rated for 15a! If you wanted an extension cord rated for 20a, you would need a 10ga extension cord! Your welder manufacturer knows this and thus wrote what they did in the manual. This is just one of the many confusing things that confuses novices in the electrical world!

As far as the subpanel question, you would need a subpanel to split the 240v 30a feeder into individual 15a and 20a circuits.

What is the continous draw of your welder? If it draws 20a continously, you will have voltage drop issues with #12. However, the max continous draw should only be 80% of circuit capacity. For a 20a circuit, this would be 16a!

 

[Sureshot]

Did you try a 12 ga extension cord on an existing plug in to see if it trips the breaker?

 

[theoldwizard1]

@theoldwizard1 I agree with the 30amp circuit if I dig it up that's what I will do however, why would I need a sub-panel?

You would only need a sub panel if you were running 240V to the garage and then splitting it into multiple circuits, which is exactly what I would do.

 

[pattenp]

I can use 12/2? I don't understand that damn welder manual then. Maybe those are overkill specs. Anyways that would make things easier for sure because I can get 12/2 at a good price. 12 inches is kind of deep, do you guys see any other way like mounting some type of pole and running the wire up in the air protected by a conduit?......

Any higher voltage and or amps the wire will need to be from 18" to 24" deep depending if direct bury or in conduit.

Run a messenger wire and string the UF cable through the air. It will need to be at least 12ft above the ground across the yard.

 

[Micscience]

For some reason deep inside I thought there was a distinction between extension cords and hard wired circuits I just didn't know what it was. I don't see any continuous draw spec on my manual but I'll trust in what you say.

I did not try a 12ga extension cord maybe I will. I can get a 10 ga extension cord but the extension is rated for 15amps is there a way I can modify the plug?

Can one miss match wires such as use a nm wire for routing the circuit in the house and then splice it near the interior wall and when outside use a UF rated wire?

I really like the messenger wire idea I can show my friends how smart I am when they notice it.

 

[pattenp]

The UF can enter the house and be spliced to the NM in a J-box. Both the UF and NM need to be the same size such as 12/2 and 12/2 for 20 amps. Don't hook up the #12 UF to #14 NM on a 15A circuit. I assume you know not to do that.

Edit: If you do the over air run you should price 8-8-8-8 aluminum SE cable. That is good for 40 amps and may be close to the same price as the copper UF. That gives you the ability to have 120V/240V.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

For some reason deep inside I thought there was a distinction between extension cords and hard wired circuits I just didn't know what it was. I don't see any continuous draw spec on my manual but I'll trust in what you say.

I did not try a 12ga extension cord maybe I will. I can get a 10 ga extension cord but the extension is rated for 15amps is there a way I can modify the plug?

Can one miss match wires such as use a nm wire for routing the circuit in the house and then splice it near the interior wall and when outside use a UF rated wire?

I really like the messenger wire idea I can show my friends how smart I am when they notice it.

I've seen 10ga extension cords wirh 20a plugs on them!

 

[G'ord]

It the welder calls for a 20 amp circuit then you will be fine with running 12/2 UF cable. 50 ft is not enough to worry about voltage drop. With doing 120V @ 20A max, the UF only needs to be buried 12 inches, but the circuit needs to be GFCI protected. That means the GFCI needs to be at the source of the circuit, not at the outlet on the end of the circuit.

Depending on the person's location, code may require, buried power lines may need to be 18 inchs if installed in conduit and 24" if using UF

 

[Sureshot]

I would get an adapter or whatever it took to try it on a 15amp plug that exists. It is a go cart so it is likely very thin metal.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Depending on the person's location, code may require, buried power lines may need to be 18 inchs if installed in conduit and 24" if using UF

NO! If a GFCI is protecting a direct buried wire such as UF NM, the wire only needs to be 12"! Do u even have a code book?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I've seen 10ga extension cords wirh 20a plugs on them!

Very few know that there is a 120V plug and receptacle that is designed for 20A (NEMA 5-20). It looks different

The good news is that you can still plug in "standard" 120V 15A plugs (NEMA 5-15) into one of these receptacles. (The difference in blade size is exaggerated.)

Here is what I would do :

• Install new weather resistant box attached to the house.
• Pull 12 gauge wire from a 20A breaker to the new box.
• Install weather resistant 20A GFCI.
  
• Install weather resistant cover.
  
• Buy 20A extension cord.
  

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would get an adapter or whatever it took to try it on a 15amp plug that exists. It is a go cart so it is likely very thin metal.

But if the welder has a 20a plug on it, and it draws close to that, he COULD smoke a 15a extension cord! I've seen this happen before! Of course, like u said, it depends on what he's welding!

 

[Micscience]

Hey I am aware of the 20 amp plug! It is different than 15 amps because of the little slit on the outlet my cousin taught me that one. theoldwizard1 that seems like what I was thinking of however, I'd like to make my own extension cord 1. because it is fun and 2. it's cheaper! and 3. I have access to all types of wire they sell at the scrap yard, solid or stranded wire.

I actually just ran a 15ft 10ga circuit in the basement with a 20amp outlet the other day. I had to splice the 10ga wire and at first when I spliced it I didn't use a J-box but then remembered and fixed it and made sure it was on the ceiling. To be honest I still don't think it is up to code since I didn't mount it to the rafter but the actual ceiling floor + plus the type of conduit I used.

pattenp I know not to do that but it had crossed my mind since theoretically s 10ga and 12ga wire can handle 20 amps was what I was thinking.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'd like to make my own extension cord 1. because it is fun and 2. it's cheaper! and 3. I have access to all types of wire they sell at the scrap yard, solid or stranded wire.

I agree with 1) but it is not cheaper IF you are using the proper type of wire which is 10/3 (for cords, they count all conductor) SOOW or SJOOW. The ends will kill you !

Been there, done that !

 

[Larwyn]

I have operated a 120 volt mig on a 100 foot long 10/3 extension cord with no problem. The little Lincoln did just fine on 1/8" angle iron when powered this way. It was plugged in to a 30 amp RV receptacle using an adapter, as that was the closest available power source at the time. It was just a pain to roll up that heavy cord at the end of the day!

 

[madosta]

Hey I am aware of the 20 amp plug! It is different than 15 amps because of the little slit on the outlet my cousin taught me that one. theoldwizard1 that seems like what I was thinking of however, I'd like to make my own extension cord 1. because it is fun and 2. it's cheaper! and 3. I have access to all types of wire they sell at the scrap yard, solid or stranded wire.

I actually just ran a 15ft 10ga circuit in the basement with a 20amp outlet the other day. I had to splice the 10ga wire and at first when I spliced it I didn't use a J-box but then remembered and fixed it and made sure it was on the ceiling. To be honest I still don't think it is up to code since I didn't mount it to the rafter but the actual ceiling floor + plus the type of conduit I used.

pattenp I know not to do that but it had crossed my mind since theoretically s 10ga and 12ga wire can handle 20 amps was what I was thinking.

Bah! You are using convoluted tubing it looks like. Definitely not conduit. Does this 10/3 go all the way to the breaker? I'm sure it will work and it was cheap, just be careful. I think you would have to block all of the gaps between the joists or drill holes in order for it to be code, but I'm a little unclear on that and can't offer any advice.

Doing is fun!

 

[Micscience]

Ok then 12/2 nm circuit from panel to the outside of the house on the right side. I guess I'll leave that 10/3 outlet untouched.

madosta from what I learned even the plastic covering you are calling convoluted tubing is called conduit as well. I always thought conduit was a general term however it does say in my automotive study guide that convoluted tubing is conduit!

thanks for the help fellas

edit: disregard the grey line under the outlet I should have not included that in the picture because I am planning on drilling threw the house wall.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hey I am aware of the 20 amp plug! It is different than 15 amps because of the little slit on the outlet my cousin taught me that one. theoldwizard1 that seems like what I was thinking of however, I'd like to make my own extension cord 1. because it is fun and 2. it's cheaper! and 3. I have access to all types of wire they sell at the scrap yard, solid or stranded wire.

I actually just ran a 15ft 10ga circuit in the basement with a 20amp outlet the other day. I had to splice the 10ga wire and at first when I spliced it I didn't use a J-box but then remembered and fixed it and made sure it was on the ceiling. To be honest I still don't think it is up to code since I didn't mount it to the rafter but the actual ceiling floor + plus the type of conduit I used.

pattenp I know not to do that but it had crossed my mind since theoretically s 10ga and 12ga wire can handle 20 amps was what I was thinking.

Not to burst your bubble but #10 NM is rated for 30a! So depending on how long the wire is, u probably could have used #12 NM for a 20a outlet!

 

[Micscience]

You didn't read the beginning of this thread.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

To be honest, i reply to so many threads on here, I cant possibly remember the context of EACH thread! Sorry...

 

[Micscience]

that's alright man at least you're replying helping keep the forum alive.

 

[Micscience]

I had another question. Is it against code to run wire on an outer insulated wall? If not, is it recommended to avoid insulated walls?

 

[pattenp]

Do you mean "in" an insulated wall and not "on". It's okay to run NM within an insulated wall.

 

[Micscience]

Yes I meant "in" but when you're speaking in general terms I believe "on" is correct. When I said to "run wire" which means the wire is being installed or routed threw the wall correctly meaning "in" and the "on" is the selection of the outer wall you know what I mean? anyways thanks for the info I appreciate it.

 

[pattenp]

Yeah.. I thought that's what you meant but I just wanted to make sure. You writing it and understanding what you mean is one thing. Me reading it and understanding it is another thing.

Yes I meant "in" but when you're speaking in general terms I believe "on" is correct. When I said to "run wire" which means the wire is being installed or routed threw the wall correctly meaning "in" and the "on" is the selection of the outer wall you know what I mean? anyways thanks for the info I appreciate it.

 

[Micscience]

I had another question I guess they just don't stop coming. I am installing a ceiling chandelier/big light in a hallway and the light comes with a lot of extra wire. Three feet away from the light is a hot wire that I was going to splice into which used to be used for a wall light. I was wondering instead of running 14/2 wire from the old existing light box to the ceiling box, maybe I can just run the extra wire from the ceiling light to the old light box on the wall and splice it eliminating using anymore 14/2 wire. What do you think? If not I have to cut like 4 feet of wire off that ceiling light.

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/3157/1005632.png

 

[pattenp]

I assume the wire on the light are individual wires so they will need to be inside of some type of raceway or conduit to the existing light box where the connection will be made.

 

[Micscience]

Ah well If I have to do that then I might as well just use the nm wire. Thanks

 

[Rookie2]

i would use the 10ga extention cord. then your buddies can borrow your welder too. screw that burrial stuff for one or two projects.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I assume the wire on the light are individual wires so they will need to be inside of some type of raceway or conduit to the existing light box where the connection will be made.

And i don't think fixture wire is rated for in wall use!