Running Airlines????

[Rolling_Thunder]

Well my winter project is to insulate and wall in my 24 x 24 garage. So before I get started I want to run some airlines through the walls. Im using 3/4" Copper Type "L". My question is where should I place a condensation bleed off valve. Near the compressor? At the end of the 2 runs I'll be placing...?????

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

Heres a Drawing of what I want to do!

 

[PAToyota]

You want to have valves at the bottom of any vertical drop to clear moisture out of the system.

 

[beelsr]

goto tptools.com and do a search for their diagram on how to run airlines. It's a PDf that is pretty comprehensive. They use all their part #s for all the bits and bobs but you can ignore that if you want and concentrate on how they designed it.

For me... big loop up high and have the risers come off the top of the line and loop on down (like a shepard's hook), have the riser extend past where the tool fitting is and have a ball valve on the end to blow out any moisture that gravity collects for you.

 

[kartracer55]

What do you plan on doing about filtering? You will need at least two filters in the system, one before the first drop to the right of the compressor and one right before the drop over on the left. Access to these is a must because they will serve to separate water in the system, and you will need to drain them periodically. A better, yet significantly more expensive method would be to filter right before each air connection. This can add up pretty quickly though.

Each drop leg should have a drain valve on the very bottom and T the air coupler out the side, higher up on the leg.

This is the tp tools diagram mentioned above...

I'm not an expert, but I don't think it is necessary to use the two elbows after the T in each drop before you hook up the filter/reg. I didn't with my set up and I'll only have water on the most humid of days if the compressor is super hot, and even then, its hardly noticeable. I don't think the elbows would help me, its more of a problem with not having enough line for the air to fully condense in anyway, my lines get HOT.

Make sure you isolate the compressor from the copper lines. I used a braided steel hydraulic line from grainger, It was 3/4 and About 1 foot long, I believe it was around 30$.

 

[larry4406]

goto tptools.com and do a search for their diagram on how to run airlines. It's a PDf that is pretty comprehensive. They use all their part #s for all the bits and bobs but you can ignore that if you want and concentrate on how they designed it.

For me... big loop up high and have the risers come off the top of the line and loop on down (like a shepard's hook), have the riser extend past where the tool fitting is and have a ball valve on the end to blow out any moisture that gravity collects for you.

I looked into all this guidance and had problems with it. Remember, with free advice you get what you paid for. I went with 1" iron pipe behind my drywall (cheap, easy to thread, at least for me, I have the tools). I also took a totally different approach. All of the various diagrams show running the trunks up high (6'+ AFF), vertically tapping off the top then with a candi-can, and then dropping to the point of use with a drip point and valve at the end.

Insteand, I put the main lower, say at 2 to 4 feet AFF. The main is pitched away from the compressor with a single drain at the far end. Each tap (and I have many) comes off the top of the main and goes vertical, and then a simple 90 degree fitting to the point of use. This way, I have one piping drain valve (versus one at every single point of use, behind your shelves, storage, etc) and every point of use is top of pipe derived (leaves moisture in the pipe). I can't say I have used the system a whole lot, but this is what I did and why. I see no advantage to having the piping up high, with drain valves at every single dead end point of use. I did not do the loop arrangement, but I can understand where that might be an advantage in a high production environment - but we are just tinkerers in our own garage right?

 

[akdiesel]

larry, that is a good idea for installing it lower, but for most the lines are installed after the fact and most also have cabinets or benches running in that same area so it is easier to install up higher.

At my work for our gas compression system we have large fan coolers. The gas then goes to various knockout drums for each compression stage. These drums start out at approx 100 barrel size to approx 50 barrel sizes. The purpose of the knockout drums is to make a collection point for the liquid after it cools down when going through the coolers.
This is the same concept I am building for my air system. The compressors already have a large knockout drum but that air is warm in main container and then it travels to a smaller line creating a jewels thompson effect which then carries the air / water down the main distribution line.
I will be installing a smaller knockout drum that will be approx 3' from the main compressor tank. The knockout drum will receive it's air from the side and exit out the top. There will also be a low point drain in this tank as well. Not to mention a filter also.

 

[60man]

What ever you do be sure and run a loop system overhead and then run drops off that. By using a loop you effectivly double the volume(CFM) at all drops. Dead end lines are not cool !!
Harbor Freight sells a device ( auto drain valve) that mounts to compressor and drains the tank automaticaly when compressor cycles...less than $20.00.
Took me about a 1/2 hour to install. You can put a catch can under compressor to keep water off floor.
I also have a dryer on mine which = no water..

 

[ScaldedDog]

Tell (or show) me more about the loop system.

Mark

 

[beelsr]

Tell (or show) me more about the loop system.

Mark

it's shown on the tptools website's diagram. basically, you have a loop of piping thta goes around the garage/wokshop/room/whatever and both feed the air into the loop and pull risers off the loop for the tools. with a dead end, the air can get "trapped" in the dead ends but in a looped system, the air flows all around (simplistic explanation at 3 in the morning)...

 

[ScaldedDog]

OK. I don't see it on the tptools site, or at least not on the commonly referenced diagram from that site:

I think I understand what you're saying, though I'm not sure how it differs from a straight system where air is fed into one end and out the other, with risers coming off for the intermediate drops. Am I missing something?

I'm getting ready to plumb my garage in January, so this is of particular interest to me and, hopefully, to the original poster.

Mark

 

[Identaltech]

you need valves at any place lower than your main. you dont need to pull the air off the top of the main. hot air holds more water and as soon as it cools the vapors will turn into water. the futher away from the compressor to cooler your air is. we filter and dry our air before it even get to the tank. never any water in lines or compressor tank. size your compressor to fit what you are doing. if your air is hot in your main lines you need a bigger air compressor. the rest is just a bandaid. water vapors will travel up hill.

 

[kbs2244]

The tptools PIC is not a loop. It is a "dead end."
Loops are nice in that they do increas your storage volume, but I wouldn't go out of my way to install one.
Do it the tptools way.
The only thing I don't like in their set up is they do not put a drain on the vertical from the tank to the first horizonal run. They depend on the tank drain.
I woud make that run a tee with a flex coulpling to absorb the vibration and a drain at the bottom. If you double the pipe size on that one run you will get some cooling effect.
But in a install where the compressor is going to run a lot, I would like to see that run as a manifold with double pipes with fins, like you see on hot water heat pipes.
That will give you some cheap cooling and drying.

 

[monte433]

http://www.garage-pak.com/compresse...tion/compressed-air-piping-system-safety.html

We used this for a 60 x 40 barn with 6 drops and looped the system around the perimiter left it exposed so it can be reconfigured for equipment we are going to add later only took about an hour to install, all in all a very flexable system and I thought priced well because of the ease of installion.

 

[60man]

OK. I don't see it on the tptools site, or at least not on the commonly referenced diagram from that site:

I think I understand what you're saying, though I'm not sure how it differs from a straight system where air is fed into one end and out the other, with risers coming off for the intermediate drops. Am I missing something?

I'm getting ready to plumb my garage in January, so this is of particular interest to me and, hopefully, to the original poster.

Mark

You will be missing a whole lot of volume(cfm) at all drops !! Pressure is same but tools run off of volume...especially that bead blast cabinet I see...Tie that blue line back into compressor...It's like doulbling the size of the pipe...Dead ends are not good.

 

[e-tek]

Insteand, I put the main lower, say at 2 to 4 feet AFF. The main is pitched away from the compressor with a single drain at the far end. Each tap (and I have many) comes off the top of the main and goes vertical, and then a simple 90 degree fitting to the point of use. This way, I have one piping drain valve (versus one at every single point of use, behind your shelves, storage, etc) and every point of use is top of pipe derived (leaves moisture in the pipe).

Mine is closer to Larry's. I ran a flex tube up to my main (black pipe) lines, which I pitched back to compressor. I have filters about 10-15feet out on each main line, before my series of T-offs for lines & equipment. I have yet to see any moisture in any of my lines, but I still installed a pellet-dryer before my blast cabinet. I paint cars and use a lot of air tools.

BTW - I'm not a copper tube guy - precisely due to the reason that was mentioned in kartracer's post: they get HOT! It's not that he doesn't have enough line to condensate it, the copper doesn't release heat as well (thus not condensing the air) like black pipe does (sorry guys!! - had to stir the pot on that one!!!)

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

What do you plan on doing about filtering? You will need at least two filters in the system, one before the first drop to the right of the compressor and one right before the drop over on the left. Access to these is a must because they will serve to separate water in the system, and you will need to drain them periodically. A better, yet significantly more expensive method would be to filter right before each air connection. This can add up pretty quickly though.

Each drop leg should have a drain valve on the very bottom and T the air coupler out the side, higher up on the leg.

This is the tp tools diagram mentioned above...

I'm not an expert, but I don't think it is necessary to use the two elbows after the T in each drop before you hook up the filter/reg. I didn't with my set up and I'll only have water on the most humid of days if the compressor is super hot, and even then, its hardly noticeable. I don't think the elbows would help me, its more of a problem with not having enough line for the air to fully condense in anyway, my lines get HOT.

Make sure you isolate the compressor from the copper lines. I used a braided steel hydraulic line from grainger, It was 3/4 and About 1 foot long, I believe it was around 30$.

I plan on the 2 filter setup like you described! I didnt plan on actual drop lines for I was just going to making a straight run at a level that would clear my work bench's. I did plan on a hose between trhe lines and the compressor. Im not looking for a real intricate setup just a useable one! Thanks for all your suggestions !!

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

goto tptools.com and do a search for their diagram on how to run airlines. It's a PDf that is pretty comprehensive. They use all their part #s for all the bits and bobs but you can ignore that if you want and concentrate on how they designed it.

For me... big loop up high and have the risers come off the top of the line and loop on down (like a shepard's hook), have the riser extend past where the tool fitting is and have a ball valve on the end to blow out any moisture that gravity collects for you.

Thanks for the website I'll take a looksie!! Does a Loop system make that much of a difference! Would it help with such a small setup?

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

What ever you do be sure and run a loop system overhead and then run drops off that. By using a loop you effectivly double the volume(CFM) at all drops. Dead end lines are not cool !!
Harbor Freight sells a device ( auto drain valve) that mounts to compressor and drains the tank automaticaly when compressor cycles...less than $20.00.
Took me about a 1/2 hour to install. You can put a catch can under compressor to keep water off floor.
I also have a dryer on mine which = no water..

Would a loop setup really make that much difference on such a small setup. I was going to hf for the filters I look for the drain valve while Im there! Thanks!

 

[jkeyser14]

BTW - I'm not a copper tube guy - precisely due to the reason that was mentioned in kartracer's post: they get HOT! It's not that he doesn't have enough line to condensate it, the copper doesn't release heat as well (thus not condensing the air) like black pipe does (sorry guys!! - had to stir the pot on that one!!!)

You couldn't be further from the truth on that one. Copper has a much higher heat transfer rate than iron does. The entire reason it gets hotter is because it's transferring heat out of the compressed air better than the iron.

 

[cdent]

I think jkeyser's right about the science part. Copper is going to give you one of the quickest heat transfers, weather it makes a difference or not to the application.

I used copper because it's much easier for me to solder joints rather than thread. I've also seen other folks black pipe set ups send rust grit downstream. For me the joints are also much cheaper than the black pipe. I know it's just an info diagram, but that tp picture looks like a pain in the tail and wallet for a simple run.

 

[beelsr]

Thanks for the website I'll take a looksie!! Does a Loop system make that much of a difference! Would it help with such a small setup?

Yes, it makes a difference; in both flow and volume. Whether it's worth it or not depends on what you're doing. If you do any sandblasting, it's definitely worth it (as is finding an extra tank on CL!)....

 

[beelsr]

copper is WAY more temperature conductive than iron! The 2 reasons usually given not to use copper is that it's thinner walled than iron (get the thick grade pipe) and that it work hardens from the vibrations. It is a lot easier to work with and make changes. The first few joints off the compressor may need to be silver soldered - depending on heat. I've seen some people blow out the plain solder joints. But that can be mostly fixed by using bigger pipe.

 

[akdiesel]

I've seen some people blow out the plain solder joints. But that can be mostly fixed by using bigger pipe.

Do you mean smaller pipe. The larger pipe means more area for the pressure to come in contact with.

 

[beelsr]

Do you mean smaller pipe. The larger pipe means more area for the pressure to come in contact with.

nope, i meant bigger pipe. smaller pipe heats up faster and it's the heat that causes the regular solder to soften enough that the pressure blows it out. the size of the pipe doesn't affect the pressure in the line - 125psi in 1/2" copper is 125psi in 3/4" copper - pressure is the same.

I've seen people put in ladder-style "radiators" right after the tank/ soft line. Those were in LA and FLA. One had a fan hooked up so when the compressor was running, the fan was blowing air over the radiator. Every little bit helps, I suppose...

A lot of this is academic if you're not running the compressor at/near it's duty cycle....

 

[akdiesel]

Larger pipe means more surface area as I said ealier. I agree 125 psi is the same in pressure no mater what size the pipe, but the larger the pipe the thicker the material will have to be to handle the higher pressure.
I did not know that the heated air from the compressor could actually soften the solder. I thought it had to be at least 500-600 deg. to melt the solder.
I am sure the standard 1" copper pipe will handle the 125 psi given it is a wall thickness of .035, but people aslo need to keep in mind that copper is intended for water use and at an average of 70 psi.

 

[beelsr]

Larger pipe means more surface area as I said ealier. I agree 125 psi is the same in pressure no mater what size the pipe, but the larger the pipe the thicker the material will have to be to handle the higher pressure.

What higher pressure? It's the same pressure....

I am sure the standard 1" copper pipe will handle the 125 psi given it is a wall thickness of .035, but people aslo need to keep in mind that copper is intended for water use and at an average of 70 psi.

One of the reasons to use the thicker gauge copper piping: type L, Type M, ???? (not a plumber).

 

[hansen1]

I am in the early stages of building my air system. I currently have my compressor in my garage attached to the house. I am about half way done with a detached garage. When I ran the underground water line from the house, I put in an extra 1" line that could be used for air. I was thinking I could leave my compressor where it is and tap into the line. Based on where everything is located, the compressor is probably 10-12 feet below the grade of the new garage.

The line underground is below the frost line and is about 100'. I have a 300 gallon tank that I was going to put in the new garage for capacity. From what I am reading here, I will plan on doing a loop system in the new garage and build in the drops to eliminate as much water as possible. I am thinking the underground line would help with cooling the air, etc.

While I have used air for many years, I have no experience on the best way to setup a system. This forum is a great resource and would like everyone's feedback and suggesting on my plan.

 

[e-tek]

Here's a great resource I found:

http://www.transairpipe.com/compressed_air_pipe_system.php#problem


Once again, as for iron vs. copper, the reason I've heard that iron is better is that it DOESN'T get hot, therefore it condenses the air INSIDE the pipe better, thus getting it out of the air going to your tools (and you can then trap it). With copper, it gets hot, stays hot, doesn't consdense the air!! You need a cooling of the hot air to consdense it....confused yet?

As well, with copper, I've read that it can have increased fail rates at temps over 180F.

Of course this is all often academic - in reality, many people use either pipe in their home garages for years without any troubles!!!

 

[Kevin54]

copper is WAY more temperature conductive than iron! The 2 reasons usually given not to use copper is that it's thinner walled than iron (get the thick grade pipe) and that it work hardens from the vibrations. It is a lot easier to work with and make changes. The first few joints off the compressor may need to be silver soldered - depending on heat. I've seen some people blow out the plain solder joints. But that can be mostly fixed by using bigger pipe.

How is copper going to work harden from the vibration? The vibration will be minimal. Work hardening usually happen when you bend the material, or heat and cool material, and not from vibration. If that was the case, then every airplane in the air would be so hard they would just shatter. Copper air lines are not going to get hot enough to work harden either, and if they do it will not be hard enough to split the line out. The only place that they would be work hardened is at the solder joints from the heat, and by silver soldering they would be harder than using conventional solder and a propane torch as silver solder takes more heat to melt.

Well my winter project is to insulate and wall in my 24 x 24 garage. So before I get started I want to run some airlines through the walls. Im using 3/4" Copper Type "L". My question is where should I place a condensation bleed off valve. Near the compressor? At the end of the 2 runs I'll be placing...?????

Rolling_Thunder......how are you going to run 3/4" line through the walls? Drill every stud? If so, how are you going to get the pipe through it? Not going to be the easiest thing I wouldn't think. You might be better off going overhead and then down or am I missing something?

 

[nissan_crawler]

To start with, I don't see it being wise to put airlines inside a wall, but to each their own.

Larger pipe means more surface area as I said ealier. I agree 125 psi is the same in pressure no mater what size the pipe, but the larger the pipe the thicker the material will have to be to handle the higher pressure.
I did not know that the heated air from the compressor could actually soften the solder. I thought it had to be at least 500-600 deg. to melt the solder.
I am sure the standard 1" copper pipe will handle the 125 psi given it is a wall thickness of .035, but people aslo need to keep in mind that copper is intended for water use and at an average of 70 psi.

********, absolute ********. Copper is not just intended for water, nor an average of 70 p.s.i.

Type K 3/4" copper has a 426 p.s.i. WORKING PRESSURE @ 400*F!!! 696 p.s.i working pressure at 200*F!

As well, with copper, I've read that it can have increased fail rates at temps over 180F.

ANY metal will have increased fail rates with higher temps. However, it's completely irrelevant, see above. Please show me a hobby (or even commercial) air compressor setup that's running 426 p.s.i. and 400*f. It's not even close to relevant.

 

[timgr]

How is copper going to work harden from the vibration? ...

It's my understanding that copper and aluminum both experience cumulative metal fatigue. Steel, however, has a stress limit under which the fatigue will not accumulate. This is why aluminum airframes have a finite lifetime - even if the airframe is not excessively stressed, the stresses from pressurization will eventually accumulate enough to risk failure.

I suspect that pressurization and vibration stress for copper pipe is negligible though. It will eventually accumulate enough so that the pipe will rupture, but I'd guess that would not be of concern for a long time - longer than the lifespan of the building.

 

[e-tek]

ANY metal will have increased fail rates with higher temps. However, it's completely irrelevant, see above. Please show me a hobby (or even commercial) air compressor setup that's running 426 p.s.i. and 400*f. It's not even close to relevant.

I took it to mean that the solder joints "could" fail with increased heat - but I'm sure it's doubtful/rare.

 

[beelsr]

How is copper going to work harden from the vibration? The vibration will be minimal. Work hardening usually happen when you bend the material, or heat and cool material, and not from vibration. If that was the case, then every airplane in the air would be so hard they would just shatter. Copper air lines are not going to get hot enough to work harden either, and if they do it will not be hard enough to split the line out. The only place that they would be work hardened is at the solder joints from the heat, and by silver soldering they would be harder than using conventional solder and a propane torch as silver solder takes more heat to melt.

I wasn't saying that it does - just that it's a reason given against copper. I will agree that I failed to state that in my post. I've never tested the long-term effects on copper so can't state definitively. I have seen copper setups that have been in use for years and surely have seen what some would consider abusive conditions in those years. They're still running fine....

Oh, and I'm sure you know this but for the record, planes are Al tubes not Cu.

 

[hidollartoys]

It seems to me that the hot water circuit in our homes would be a more stressful application for copper than compressed air. 120 degrees at 60 psi (some places higher) with a non-compressible fluid.......... If not more then at least equal given the pressure vs temp and factoring in the "fluid" (compressible vs non-compressible). Lets not forget that some water supplies are reactive to copper pipes as well. All this said we dont question copper water pipes and in some cases demand it over the "PEX" products.

 

[kartracer55]

To the OP.


Copper is fine, and easy to work with. It also eliminates the need to have a filter right before every single hose connection because you don't have to worry about scale in the lines. Use type L or K pipe and sweat with 95/5.


As for looping to double CFM, I call bs. If theres one end user, as long as the tubing is sized equal to the outlet of the compressor, a loop won't really do much good in my eyes. The advantage can come if you have two people using compressed air at once.

 

[mdale]

I'm looking to run around 60 feet of copper for main horizontal line, should I go with 1/2" or 3/4"? I'm hoping that 1/2" is good because I have some, but want to do it right.

 

[sharkytm]

60 feet? I'd go for 3/4 minimum, 1" preferred... go ahead and cost out 1" pipe and fittings, then when you wake up, go buy 3/4". I used 3/4 for the main run, and did my drops in 1/2".

 

[Engineer61]

The advantage of a loop system over a dead end system is that every drop has two ways of getting air from the compressor tank, while a dead end system only has one. So if you were to start up a sand blaster, and then someone try to run an impact wrench "downstream" of it, the wrench isn't going to have full air pressure to run it because the sand blaster is bleeding off so much air out of the system. On a Loop system, there is another path the air can take from the tank to the drop so while the pressure may be falling due to the sand blaster, it will still be at tank pressure at the impact wrench.
Loop systems are just an extra materials expense for the home garage where you are rarely going to be running two air tools at the same time. They are good for commercial shops where two or more tools will often be going at the same time.