Running electric out to Pole Barn Basics

[bbkmods]

I am in need of direction in running electric out to my new pole barn. I have a 200 amp breaker panel in my home and would like to run an electric line out to my pole barn. There is 75' of crawl space and 75' of ditch between my house panel and my pole barn. I want to use a 100 amp panel in my pole barn.
One of the questions I have is, what wire do I need to purchase from Home Depot for my project? Is it this one? http://www.homedepot.com/buy/southwire-500-ft-2-2-2-4-al-urd-****-service-entry-electrical-cable-55417309.html#.UEnnJaO040g Any guidance would be appreciated.

 

[sberry]

Yes, thats the wire but you need to use a 90 at the main to feed it.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/home...o-dwellings/wiring-a-detached-garage-2002.php

 

[bbkmods]

Yes, thats the wire but you need to use a 90 at the main to feed it.

Thanks for the help. Can I run that wire the entire distance, from the main panel to the 100amp panel in the barn? I plan on running the wire in pcv conduit in the ditch because I heard it will protect it from rocks and winter heaving.

 

[sberry]

You have to pipe if from the panel, may be able to use some flex pipe if needed at some point. I have piped it in the ditch, put a lot of it in direct burial too, if you do this dump some cleaner fill around it before bury. I have 100 s of feet in direct.

As a side note, I like that wire from HD. Lowes had it too but it didn't have full size neutral and ground was a 6 I believe and HD was cheaper.

 

[bbkmods]

I am positively going to pipe it in the ditch, but is it really necessary to pipe it in the crawl space? God, I really don't want to do that. It's very difficult to move around down there. I was told by my brother in law that if the underground (URD) cable is stapled to the joists underneath the house, it is acceptable. Which way is right? That is why I came to this forum, for some answers.

 

[Dr.JohnnyFever]

1. I absolutely would pipe it the entire run.

2. I would not run it under the existing structure.

3. Unless that cable is rated something other than URD, you cannot bring it into your house. You will need to transition to wire that has an insulation that is NEC listed for house wiring.

 

[richtersrodz]

I wanted a feed going to my pole barn, when I built my new house. My barn was there, before the house. My builder didn't tell me that he didn't do it, til it was too late for me to argue it. I had two seperate outlet boxes listed on my plans, and my builder chose to delete them. He later told me that I would have to put in a whole new transformer and meter to run my barn... So, for right now, I use an extension cord for some lights.

 

[Dr.JohnnyFever]

According to Southwire's documentation, their quadraplex codenamed **** is USE-2. The docs do not indicate that it is dual rated as anything else.

If that is the case, you will need to splice it external to your structures.

What I usually do is run URD and then splice to THWN in a JB just before going through the wall. If you splice using splitbolts, make sure you use splitbolts that are dual rate CU/AL.

 

[sberry]

I run it to the panel.

 

[Dr.JohnnyFever]

I run it to the panel.

I try to wire as if an inspector was looking over my shoulder - even in unincorporated areas with no code enforcement.

Code exists for a reason. Wiring to code also saves hassles during pre-sale home inspections and helps reduce finger pointing in the event of a fire.

It is up to every person to make their own decision as to what standard of quality they want to achieve.

Shucks, back 20 years ago when I was young and dumb and my wife and I built our first house, I just dragged some URD under the house, drilled a hole in the floor, stuck the triplex through the hole and terminated it in the panel. I didn't even bury it between the house and the pole. After 8 years, grass roots had covered it enough that you couldn't even see it.

Did the house burn down? No. But I would fire/sue somebody that tried a stunt like that today.

 

[rburke65]

Use, I would pipe it all the way. I would even run 2 pipes all the way!

 

[pattenp]

You need to verify the wire insulation rating. Straight USE cable can not be run inside if it doesn't also have a dual rating such as RHW or RHH or is USE-2. Those ratings mean it is fire resistant. All single conductor cable like this that is not assembled in an outer jacket need to be in conduit. SER cable does not need to be in conduit and is used inside.

Edit: If the insulation is XLPE then it's ok to bring it into the structure. If you can get Southwire's Mobile Home Feeder then that can go from panel to panel, but it still needs to be in conduit. You can always transition to SER for inside.

 

[Dr.JohnnyFever]

I agree with everything that pattenp said except: USE-2 is not allowed inside the structure. The difference between USE and USE-2 is that USE-2 has a 90ºC temperature rating - similar to the difference between NM and NM-B.

If it is USE-2, it will still have to be dual rated as RHH or RHW to bring inside the structure.

Southwire does have several products that are dual rated, but I don't believe they use them in their budget URD products. Contacting Southwire and asking might be useful.

 

[pattenp]

Learned something new. I thought USE-2 was allowed inside because the insulation used to get it to the 90 deg rating was fire resistant. Something else ingrained in my brain to change.

I agree with everything that pattenp said except: USE-2 is not allowed inside the structure. The difference between USE and USE-2 is that USE-2 has a 90ºC temperature rating - similar to the difference between NM and NM-B.

If it is USE-2, it will still have to be dual rated as RHH or RHW to bring inside the structure.

Southwire does have several products that are dual rated, but I don't believe they use them in their budget URD products. Contacting Southwire and asking might be useful.

 

[Dr.JohnnyFever]

pattenp: Almost all USE-2 is dual rated but it is not guaranteed to be so.

It makes sense from a manufacturing viewpoint to do so - who wants to formulate 50 different insulations for just the consumer market?

Likewise, I suspect that the insulation on Southwire's NM-B conductors is actually rated THWN - they just aren't marked so. And, since they aren't marked, they are not a listed product and cannot be used for any application with the sheath removed.

 

[bbkmods]

Oh my god. I'm going nuts here.. I wanted to go up to home Depot tonight and grab the wire I needed, but I'm not sure anymore of the correct wire. I thought the Home Depot Southwire 500 ft. 2-2-2-4 AL URD **** Service Entry Electrical Cable was what I needed, but I guess not. I want to run one type of wire the entire distance, underground outside and then stapled to the joists underneath the house in the crawl space inside. I don't want to use a junction box. I don't want to use two different types of wire. I don't want to use conduit in the crawl space. There must be a wire I can get that will do all of this for me.

 

[Dr.JohnnyFever]

There must be a wire I can get that will do all of this for me.

There is. THWN if you are going to shop at HD. And it will run you about $2 a foot X 3 conductors for $6 a foot. Don't forget an EGC at around $1 a foot.

So, around $1050 for wire if you don't to splice it in a JB.

Or, you could go to a supply house and hunt down some dual rated USE-2 / RHW.

Or, you could just redneck and run the URD from panel to panel.

Yep, I am a real ray of sunshine.

 

[pattenp]

To be code compliant you either need to run conduit from panel to panel or use two different wire types. My suggestion is to use 2-2-2-4 Al Mobile Home Feeder from the shop panel to just inside your house in conduit then have a large junction box under the house and switch to 2-2-2-4 SER from the junction box to your main panel. Put a 90A breaker in the main to feed it. The SER can hang on the bottom of your joist, no conduit is needed.

Edit: or you can direct bury the MHF from the house to the shop and just have conduit where the wire exits the ground and is exposed.

 

[bbkmods]

Yep, I am a real ray of sunshine.

Thanks for the help Johnny. It seems to me that my scenario happens with the majority of people running electric to there new garage. The redneck way is sounding good though. I just want to "get er done". That URD wire at the Depot is only $1.47 a foot. That sure beats $1050. Realistically, I don't see a problem in running the urd wire fastened to the joists besides these reasons:

1. Not to code
2. ignoring the manufactures recommended uses.
3. possible fire because the insulation isn't fire retardant.

........Hmm after writing down these cons, maybe I should consider the junction box idea. I'm so indecisive.

 

[pattenp]

The last 2-2-2-4 MHF I got from a electrical supply house was around $1.00 to $1.20 a foot.

 

[bbkmods]

The last 2-2-2-4 MHF I got from a electrical supply house was around $1.00 to $1.20 a foot.

I should see if there's an electrical supply house in my area. If I go the route of using a junction box, how big of a box would I need? Is it easy to use those connector thingys?

 

[Dr.JohnnyFever]

Technically, the box should be sized on fill and also on some painful calculations based on the largest conduit size and whether the conduits are straight across from each other, etc. So, we would need to know for certain what size conduit you will be using.

In reality, I would splice it in a 2-1/2" LB. This is borderline on code and depends on how picky your AHJ is. If the LB doesn't have the cubic inches marked, some inspectors will flag it.

By connector thingys I presume you mean either splitbolts or splicers. They are relatively easy to use, but there are some things to pay attention to - especially when splicing AL to CU:

1. Make sure you have a splicer or splitbolt that is rated for both AL and CU.

2. Use plenty of no-ox or anti-ox on the AL strands. I like to work it in with a steel brush.

3. Properly tape the splice. I like a single layer of Scotch 33 or 88 wrong side out. Followed by a double of friction tape or cambric. Followed by a double layer of Scotch rubber tape. Finally, a double layer of Scotch 33 or 88.

If all of this sounds like a pain in the **** - that is why folks hire electricians.

 

[pattenp]

I think you'll run into space problems doing the splice in a 2 1/2" LB because of the NEC requirements for the amount of wire you need to leave for the splicing to be done. You will be fighting to fold up the #2 to get back in the box. I'd use an 8X8X4 junction box. You take a hole saw and cut the size holes you need in the box and use the glue in adapters for conduit connection. With the #2 MHF you can get by with 1 1/2" conduit, but I suggest to use 2". Also you can also use shrink tube to insulate the splices. I find that reducer/splice connectors are the cheapest to do. You can look at using Polaris connectors, they are pricey and the easiest to use.

 

[bbkmods]

I thank you guys so much for the help. By the way, I have a 2" sch.80 and LB pvc entering into the crawl space.

I think my plan will be to go with a wire transition in a 8x8x4 junction box as soon as I enter the crawl space.

I'll go from this wire, run underground from the barn:

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/southw...y-electrical-cable-55417309.html#.UEnnJaO040g

to this wire, run fastened to the joists:

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/southw...try-electrical-cable-312742.html#.UEtm9qO040g What do you guys think?

 

[pattenp]

I hate to rain on your parade, but URD is not legal to run to the inside of the house. The junction would have to be made on the outside. That's why I suggested the Mobile Home Feeder because it is rated as fire resistant and can be run inside your house.

 

[bbkmods]

That's why I suggested the Mobile Home Feeder

You did rain on my parade. lol I wonder if Home Depot has Mobile Home Feeder for me to buy. Did you say the MHF cable would have to be installed in conduit in the crawl space? If it doesn't, this sounds to me like the cable I would need to run the entire distance the way I wanted in the first place.

Edit: After reading your posts again, I think you might be saying it's OK to bury the MHF cable and then run the cable only a couple of feet into the crawl space to a junction box and then transition to the SER cable. Can you clarify for me?

 

[pattenp]

The MHF can be direct buried but it's best to run it in conduit. The MHF where it's above ground and run inside has to be in conduit. So you need to at least have the MHF in conduit where it comes out of the ground and into the house to the junction box. Bottom line is MHF needs to be in conduit where exposed outside and in conduit inside.

It so happens I was just at HD and they had 2-2-2-4 Alumaflex MHF USE-2/RHH/RHW-2. But that doesn't mean it's at your store too. You need to ask about it.

 

[bbkmods]

My two surrounding Home Depots don't have MHF cable, but I did call and ask a sales associate if he could read the sheathing on the 2-2-2-4 AL URD **** cable they do have in stock. He said it reads RHW on it. If I understand Dr. Johnny correctly, I can use this wire and make my cable transition in a junction box AFTER and IMMEDIATELY when I enter the crawl. Is this correct? Can I now go buy my supplies?

In other words, this cable can be run in my crawl in conduit for approx. 2 feet to a junction box and then transition to a SER cable.

 

[pattenp]

If the insulation is marked RHW then it's okay to run it inside in conduit to the junction box. The URD I looked at in HD today had only the USE-2 markings, they must carry several flavors at different locations.

 

[bbkmods]

If the insulation is marked RHW then it's okay to run it inside in conduit to the junction box. The URD I looked at in HD today had only the USE-2 markings, they must carry several flavors at different locations.

Thank you so much. It's time to go shopping.

 

[pattenp]

Thank you so much. It's time to go shopping.

I feel your joy, but before laying out your cash see the markings with your own eyes.

 

[bbkmods]

Got the shopping done. The RHW was not anywhere on the cable. I bought it anyhow. I guess ill be doing this project like a redneck as was an option earlier in this thread. Lol

 

[pattenp]

The HD guy saying the wire was marked RHW didn't add up to me, so I'm not surprised. I don't think a couple of feet of that wire inside is a big fire hazard. I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. Have fun installing. With the aluminum wire be sure to tighten the connections well and use anti-oxidation paste on all the connections.

 

[brewchief]

If it was me I would just use a weather tight junction box on the outside, basically take the place of a LB conduit fitting, easier to do the splices outside then laying on your back in a crawl space as well.

 

[bbkmods]

If it was me I would just use a weather tight junction box on the outside, basically take the place of a LB conduit fitting, easier to do the splices outside then laying on your back in a crawl space as well.

Hmmm... I already did my shopping, bought a junction box for the crawl space, but I may have to take it back because I like that idea. The outside junction box was only 10 bucks more. I will definitely consider that.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

i did mine with the junction box in the basement, I came in the house about 18" with 2" conduit and put a 12 x12 box in the joist space and made my splices to ser there.
I don't know if the urd said rhw on it or not............but I had it inspected and it passed.

I would go with brewchief's idea, its alot easier to make those splices on the outside than in that crawl space.

 

[pattenp]

I agree on the box being outside and that also takes care of the issue of the URD coming into the house. I didn't push that because I got the feeling you just didn't want a large box on the outside.

 

[bbkmods]

It rained all day today, so I just bumbed around my garage, looking at the $500 in materials I bought last night. The main items I bought were a 100' of URD wire and 60' of XHHW SER wire. I got to tell ya, the SER wire looks ten times weather,puncture,water and fire resistant than the URD wire. I think the installation on the URD wire is nicked here and there just by throwing it in my truck. I feel like saying $#@% it, and take all the wire back, including the junction box and run this well insulated heavy duty wire the entire distance, including UNDERGROUND in conduit. Is there something I'm missing here guys? In case you want to take another look at the wire here's the link:

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/southw...try-electrical-cable-312742.html#.UEzyLKO040g

I feel like I should add more on how much I believe the XHHW will hold up better.

If I was to for instance take a freaking sledge hammer to both wires, the XHHW would prevail.

If I was to run the XHHW wire IN my pool for for 10 years, I believe it would hold up better.

If I was to directly bury this XHHW wire in jagged gravel, I feel it would be ok.

I can't say this for the other wire.

Again I ask.....Is there something I'm missing here guys? Besides the code saying I cant run it underground unless it is rated USE or USE-2 or URD or UF?

 

[pattenp]

The catch is even though the SER is rated for outdoors and in wet locations it is not rated for under ground. Another issue is the EGC in the SER is bare and needs to insulated.

 

[bbkmods]

The catch is even though the SER is rated for outdoors and in wet locations it is not rated for under ground.

Patten, you've been responding to my posts and trying to help me and I'm grateful. With your electrical knowledge and experience with these two types of cable, would you run the SER rated cable underground (in conduit) if code did allow it? In my opinion, the protection and of course ease of install is much greater with the XHHW wire. Ignore all code and ratings and give me your honest opinion.