Running power to horsebarn/shop combo

[FarmerSid]

Hey all! Glad I found this site. Talk about info overload. Been searching this site for info for the past 3 or 4 days. Looking for some advice suggestions on running power to a 36'X72' horse barn shop combo. It is going to be 130' from the house. I currently have a 200A service in my house and want to run 100A to the new barn shop combo. My house has electric base board heaters but they have all been removed. I heat the house with wood/oil forced air furnace and have an oil fired hot water heater. The oil furnace is a back-up as I heat with wood 100% of the time. I have 2 fridges and 1 full sized freezer and dishwasher. No AC.

The building is going to be built on the west end of the house. My panel is on the east end of the house so I will have to run about 70' of 100A wire inside the house and then 130' of 100A wire underground to the shop. I have only 16"-20" of soil till I hit limestone. I have called several electrical suppliers to find out what I need but none will tell me what I need. or how to do it. Only hints. I priced NW #2 3 wire @ $25.77 per m CDN for the 130' run and ND#3 3 wire @ $17.32 per m CDN for the 70' inside run. Way more $ than I expected. The best info I have been told I can do is run #2 aluminum which is $7.55 per m CDN.

I'm not sure if I can run this inside the house as well as underground. I also plan on running water, phone and network wireing in the same trench. Any suggestions on what I should do? Since I only have 16"-20" of soil, how do I install a ground rod at the new building? I am going to be installing a 7 HP air compressor, 2 post 800 LB lift and Millermatic 251 MIG welder as well as lights and 110 plugs with a 1500W tank heater.

Also, can I run Teck cable inside the house to where it will exit the house? I have about 100' of #2 teck but not enough to go to the shop.

Thanks to all that can share their knowledge and hopefully someone familiar with the Canadian electrical code will share some of their knowledge.

Cheers!

Sid

 

[rockwithjason]

I'm no expert on the canadian code but I can point you in the right direction. For specifics consult your local building dept.

For the feeder run to the shed you will need #1 AL minimum. I would strongly suggest that you upsize to prevent voltage drop when the system is fully loaded. You will need 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. This is available in a cable assembly. NM cable is the type for running indoors, it's commonly called romex. UF cable is for underground feeders, it's a direct burial cable. You could mount a 3R junction box on the side of the house to convert from one type to another. You could also run pvc conduit in the trench and pull in the NM cable. The minimum cover depth for conduit is 18 inches and for UF cable it's 24 inches, so the conduit may be the way to go.

At the shed you will need a way to disconnect the feeder (ie a main breaker in the panel or a disconnect switch). The easiest way to do this is to mount a 3R panel on the outside of the shed with a main breaker in it.

sAs for grounding, ground rods will not work in your case so that leave two options:
A ufer ground buried in the concrete of the building footer. Must be minimum of #4 bare copper and 20 ft long in the slab buried in at least 2 inches of concrete. The concrete must be in direct contact with the earth, no plastic or vapor barrier.
A ground ring encircling the whole building. Must be a min. of #2 copper buried at a depth of 24 inches. Some places allow an 18 inch burial depth.

Your phone and data cable cannot be run in the same conduit at the feeder. They must either be direct burial or have their own pipe. You can run phone and data thru the attic in most places without conduit.

Again the best place for correct info is your local building dept. Most depts are very helpful when you call and tell them what you are doing and ask for info. If all else fails, call for an inspection and get the inspector to answer your questions, then proceed with construction.

 

[sberry]

I agree with Jason, the number 1 alum would be the way to go. For a short run you could get by with the number 2 but that is a long way. You will have to pipe it if you cant get to 24 inches and make do for a ground, as he said your local building people will know as they deal with local conditions all the time. Canadian codes are very similar, the locations and numbers in the book are different from ours but the techincal parts of the instalation are quite close. The system is the same, not like European designs.

 

[FarmerSid]

Thanks for the replies! I reallt appreciate it. Last night a buddy dropped off a 100' roll of #1 copper Teck cable and a 140' roll of #6 Teck cable. Neither one will work as one is too short and one is not big enough. Would I be able to run the #1 cable from my main panel to where it exits the house all inside clipped to the floor joists? I was also thinking I could use that #6 to run power from the 100A sub panel in the shop to two welding outlets running under the concrete floor in the shop. Would I be able to do this?

Thanks all!

Sid

 

[rockwithjason]

I'm not familiar with Teck cable, without the NEMA designations it's hard to tell what you can do with it. I would bet that you can run it under the floor in the house and to the exit of the building. You would not want to bury the cable directly in the concrete. Run a pvc conduit to the location of the welding outlets and pull the cable into the conduit.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

AS already noted, in Canada the rules will be somewhat different. Even here in the US, no two locals enforce the same way. Per NEC you could use direct burial in a residential installation under drive ways and parking areas at 18 inches, otherwise you have to go 24 inches. Rigid metal or intermediate metal conduit could be buried only 6 inches, and non-metal conduit (PVC) must be 18 inches.

Not familiar with CN wire terms. Underground is considered a wet location. I think the NEC even considers cable in a conduit underground to be considered in a wet location, as such, you have to use a cable that is rated for wet locations such as UF (underground feeder) or USE (underground service entrance) (not NM-B or Romex type).

You might save a few dollars by running a sheathed cable under the house and then switching to a underground cable only where you go underground. Us a proper box and splices at the foundation to make the transition.

Charles

 

[astroracer]

Have you thought about just having a meter installed on the shop? Separate from the house? Sure would save a lot of hassle with long wire runs...
Mark

 

[Stuart in MN]

Have you thought about just having a meter installed on the shop? Separate from the house? Sure would save a lot of hassle with long wire runs...
Mark

I suppose it varies from one area to another, but in my experience most electric utilities will only allow one meter per residence.

 

[leadsled01]

Have you thought about just having a meter installed on the shop? Separate from the house? Sure would save a lot of hassle with long wire runs...
Mark

I work for a municipal electric dept... Usually there is a minimum charge for every active meter on your property. Therefore its not cost effective to have 2 meters. Not to mention the electric dept is going to charge the homeowner for running a pole line/wire/urd to the shop.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Have you thought about just having a meter installed on the shop? Separate from the house? Sure would save a lot of hassle with long wire runs...
Mark

This is not a bad idea. Base meter charge is not too much, With Georgia Power, my second meter is about $14 min per month and I usually use a little more than the base cost. Its a good second source of power for when I need to remove power from the house for electrical work, I run a long 12 gauge cord from the shop and I have power for drill, lights etc. In my case it also came in handy when the underground feed to the house failed on a weekend, kept the fridge going and a light or two, till monday when they could effect some repairs.

The pwr co engineer tried to tell me I'd have to pay commercial rates since it wasn't on a house, but the people in the billing office setting up the account said he was a horses rear and if there was not a business there, then it was residential rates, since it was residentail property.

Charles

 

[astroracer]

I think it would be worth checking into... Figure out what you will be spending to run all of that wire and then divide it by the monthly rate for the separate meter... It will take a lot of years for the monthly meter cost to equal the upfront wire cost.
Mark

 

[sberry]

There is always some talk about different local enforcement issues vs the NEC but they are usually minor and usually for conditions such as rock and often are not NEC at all but have to deal with local power companaies. I cant really think of any variences in my area that differ, I know Chicago wanted all piped wiring and that may have changed but the basics such as wire size, 4th wire grounding, etc will be standard. Yes, all underground is considered wet location.

 

[rockwithjason]

Chicago still pipes in houses god bless thier union hearts! Most cables are THHN/THWN which carries the wet location rating. It's ususally printed on the wire.

 

[sberry]

Chicago still pipes in houses god bless thier union hearts! Most cables are THHN/THWN which carries the wet location rating. It's ususally printed on the wire.

Sort of, romex type cables use the listed wire within the cable assembly but are not listed for wet locations unless they have the UF rating.

 

[rockwithjason]

No biggie, just strip off the jacket.