Running power to small outdoor shop

[asand211]

Good evening,

I want to first go ahead and say thank you for reading my post and taking the time to respond. I'm always appreciative when people are willing to share their knowledge with others.

Okay, here goes. I had a 20' x 20' metal shop built near the house which sits on a concrete pad. I want to run power to the shop from my house. The house has a 200 amp panel and I want to add a 60 amp sub panel in the shop. I can run power from the house panel or I can have the power company(Georgia Power) add new service to the shop and install a meter. I got an estimate from Georgia Power and they wanted $4010 to run power from the pole in my hard to the shop(176 feet). I definitely cannot afford that route. So, it seems running power from the house panel is the way I have to go.

The shop is exactly 82 feet from the house and the 200 amp panel is 14 feet from the side of the house where the wire will enter so we are looking at about 100 feet of wire. The shop will have overhead LED lighting, six 110 volt standard outlets, and one outlet for a Millermatic 185 220v welder. I work on small engines in my spare time so that is what it will be used for. I have space in the 200 amp house panel for a 2 pole 60 amp breaker to power the shop. The wire will be buried from the house to the shop and in conduit. Does the 60 amp breaker need to be a GFCI breaker or a standard? Is 4 AWG copper wire the correct wire to keep the voltage drop within the correct bounds based on the length of the run? Last question....do you recommend a specific 60 amp sub panel for my needs in the shop?

Again, thank you for your time to read this and response.

 

[sparky 1971]

Is 4 AWG copper wire the correct wire to keep the voltage drop within the correct bounds based on the length of the run?

Yes, but without running the numbers, I think you would be fine with #6 copper. Personally, I would use #2 AL MHF and be done with it, you could also use up to a 90 amp breaker with it, but 60's are easier to find and quite a bit cheaper.

Last question....do you recommend a specific 60 amp sub panel for my needs in the shop?

I'm a Square D fan boy, but that's mostly because they are the easiest for me to get. There's nothing wrong with Siemens copper bus panels and I've heard good things about Eaton CH but those are like a unicorn where I am. Avoid Eaton BR and GE. Get a 100 amp main breaker panel and you will be fine, the main will serve as the disconnect and the breaker in the panel will protect the feeder wire. Make sure the panel has a separate ground bar or get one when you buy the panel.

Again, thank you for your time to read this and response.

 

[asand211]

Yes, but without running the numbers, I think you would be fine with #6 copper. Personally, I would use #2 AL MHF and be done with it, you could also use up to a 90 amp breaker with it, but 60's are easier to find and quite a bit cheaper.

I'm a Square D fan boy, but that's mostly because they are the easiest for me to get. There's nothing wrong with Siemens copper bus panels and I've heard good things about Eaton CH but those are like a unicorn where I am. Avoid Eaton BR and GE. Get a 100 amp main breaker panel and you will be fine, the main will serve as the disconnect and the breaker in the panel will protect the feeder wire. Make sure the panel has a separate ground bar or get one when you buy the panel.

Ive always been a Square D guy too. Very easy to get and seems like a quality product. I almost had a heart attack when I priced the wire. Haha. Thank you for the response.

 

[PCustoms]

Sparky nailed it (of course), #2 MHF off a 60-90A breaker and a 100a "main" breaker panel in the shop.

Check www.wireandcableyourway.com or stop by your local distributor (NOT box store) for the best price.

 

[asand211]

Sparky nailed it (of course), #2 MHF off a 60-90A breaker and a 100a "main" breaker panel in the shop.

Check www.wireandcableyourway.com or stop by your local distributor (NOT box store) for the best price.

Great! Thank you so much! Have a great night!

 

[asand211]

Sparky nailed it (of course), #2 MHF off a 60-90A breaker and a 100a "main" breaker panel in the shop.

Check www.wireandcableyourway.com or stop by your local distributor (NOT box store) for the best price.

One more question. What type of wire should I use? I'm going to use conduit for extra protection but should I use direct bury cable?

 

[Snapped-off]

One more question. What type of wire should I use? I'm going to use conduit for extra protection but should I use direct bury cable?

MHF or Mobile Home Feeder was suggested. It's the GJ standard. Rated for direct burial, but no issues running it through conduit.

 

[PCustoms]

One more question. What type of wire should I use? I'm going to use conduit for extra protection but should I use direct bury cable?

MHF or Mobile Home Feeder was suggested. It's the GJ standard. Rated for direct burial, but no issues running it through conduit.

2-2-4-6 Aluminum Mobile Home Feeder Cable

2-2-4-6 Aluminum Mobile Home Feeder Cable. Sold by the foot.

www.wireandcableyourway.com

Note: confirm you can use the reduced neutral, otherwise you need to 2-2-2-4 at a few cents more per foot

 

[pattenp]

The MHF is a twisted assembly of conductors and being direct bury it is stiffer so it's a little harder to deal with in conduit. An alternative is Al XHHW-2 and will be slightly easier to handle. You can get one piece of #4 of the XHHW-2 in black and cut into 4 pieces and mark the ends with tape of the correct colors. The #4 is 65A but up to a 70A breaker can be use. This should save some money over using MHF in conduit since #2 is the smallest MHF.

 

[asand211]

MHF or Mobile Home Feeder was suggested. It's the GJ standard. Rated for direct burial, but no issues running it through conduit.

I apologize that I completely missed that earlier. I see it now. Thank you so much. This site, and the people on it, are great.

 

[asand211]

The MHF is a twisted assembly of conductors and being direct bury it is stiffer so it's a little harder to deal with in conduit. An alternative is Al XHHW-2 and will be slightly easier to handle. You can get one piece of #4 of the XHHW-2 in black and cut into 4 pieces and mark the ends with tape of the correct colors. The #4 is 65A but up to a 70A breaker can be use. This should save some money over using MHF in conduit since #2 is the smallest MHF.

Thank you so much!

 

[asand211]

I may have missed but should the breaker in my 200 amp main panel that supplies the sub panel be a GFCI?

 

[zendriver]

Can you install a 100A breaker?

I went a similar distance with 100A and AL feeder cable. Was Not interested in wasting money on copper. I did have to run conduit, not a big deal

Seems to work great.

 

[Dakotadadv8]

Depending on how much you need power since many have cordless tools you can use a portable generator to power the larger tools. Lighting can be done with extension cord to outside sockets. Just a thought.

 

[mike93lx]

Depending on how much you need power since many have cordless tools you can use a portable generator to power the larger tools. Lighting can be done with extension cord to outside sockets. Just a thought.

Going through all that effort just to run lighting on extension cords? An entire shops worth of led lighting is going to be a few amps, anyways

 

[asand211]

Can you install a 100A breaker?

I went a similar distance with 100A and AL feeder cable. Was Not interested in wasting money on copper. I did have to run conduit, not a big deal

Seems to work great.

The house panel is a 200 amp. Do you think a 100 amp sub panel is the right choice or is it too big?

 

[pattenp]

The feeding breaker in the house panel does not need to be gfci. You take care of the gfci requirements in the shop by using gfci outlets. The 100A panel is a good choice even if only supplying it from a 60A breaker in the house. The 100A main breaker in the subpanel serves only as a disconnect.

 

[sparky 1971]

I may have missed but should the breaker in my 200 amp main panel that supplies the sub panel be a GFCI?

Not unless you want to be in the dark. Feed with a standard breaker and use GFCI receptacles in the shop. You vould use GFCI breakers in the shop, but I think they cost too much.

 

[asand211]

The feeding breaker in the house panel does not need to be gfci. You take care of the gfci requirements in the shop by using gfci outlets. The 100A panel is a good choice even if only supplying it from a 60A breaker in the house. The 100A main breaker in the subpanel serves only as a disconnect.

Thank you very much.

 

[75gmck25]

Make your life simpler and run 2” conduit. Much easier pull for 2-2-2-4 AL MHF.

Also plan to install two 8’ ground rods for the sub-panel in a detached building. Check the side-to-side clearance requirements for the panel and make sure you have good access.

Assuming you are going to get this inspected, for the initial installation you can just install a couple lights, a light switch, and a GFCI receptacle. Then get it inspected and signed off. After that it’s up to you to decide what you want to add.

 

[asand211]

Great. Thank you very much. I am going to get it inspected. I screwed up my back and have had a couple of surgeries so far but the disc ruptured again and after speaking with my doctor today it looks like I’m going to have to have a fusion. That may be completely changing my plans. I think what I’d like to do is build a materials list, buy everything, and have it on hand to save some money and then just pay a local electrician to do the installation. I guess building that list is what I may need assistance on now since I can’t do anything physical. I don’t want to make it worse. Thanks again for helping me.

 

[mike93lx]

Great. Thank you very much. I am going to get it inspected. I screwed up my back and have had a couple of surgeries so far but the disc ruptured again and after speaking with my doctor today it looks like I’m going to have to have a fusion. That may be completely changing my plans. I think what I’d like to do is build a materials list, buy everything, and have it on hand to save some money and then just pay a local electrician to do the installation. I guess building that list is what I may need assistance on now since I can’t do anything physical. I don’t want to make it worse. Thanks again for helping me.

Been there, have the t-shirt. Microdiscectomy at l4/l5 and s1/l5. No fusion for me, but I can say that the relief after the surgery was incredible. Good luck!

 

[zendriver]

The house panel is a 200 amp. Do you think a 100 amp sub panel is the right choice or is it too big?

Can't have too many amps available, I am told.

I went with 100, as if the garage had welder/plasma cutter, air compressor, lights, maybe even A/C (someday) running, anything less might be pushing it. My electrician stated the same.

My home panel is 200A as well.

 

[asand211]

Been there, have the t-shirt. Microdiscectomy at l4/l5 and s1/l5. No fusion for me, but I can say that the relief after the surgery was incredible. Good luck!

Thank you. I’ve had a laminectomy and discectomy two times since July 1. Two days after the July 1 surgery I was still in the hospital and the occupational therapist had me standing up on my own and shouldn’t have. Result was the disc blew out again requiring a second surgery. Had that on July 18. Relieved the pain but disc still had a ton of material. Well, here we are again. I’m now looking at a double disc replacement and fusion of L4-L5-S1.

 

[asand211]

Can't have too many amps available, I am told.

I went with 100, as if the garage had welder/plasma cutter, air compressor, lights, maybe even A/C (someday) running, anything less might be pushing it. My electrician stated the same.

My home panel is 200A as well.

Thank you sir. That is the info I was looking for.

 

[sparky 1971]

Great. Thank you very much. I am going to get it inspected. I screwed up my back and have had a couple of surgeries so far but the disc ruptured again and after speaking with my doctor today it looks like I’m going to have to have a fusion. That may be completely changing my plans. I think what I’d like to do is build a materials list, buy everything, and have it on hand to save some money and then just pay a local electrician to do the installation. I guess building that list is what I may need assistance on now since I can’t do anything physical. I don’t want to make it worse. Thanks again for helping me.

Make a few calls to make sure that will work with a local guy. There are many contractors that will only do the job if they supply the material, I'm not one of them but if I don't supply it, there is no warranty unless something fails that is due to me screwing up. Two years ago I drove 4 hours to Minnesota to hook up a roto-phase for a friend of mine. He bought it and couldn't get anyone to wire it because they didn't supply it.

 

[sparky 1971]

Thank you. I’ve had a laminectomy and discectomy two times since July 1. Two days after the July 1 surgery I was still in the hospital and the occupational therapist had me standing up on my own and shouldn’t have. Result was the disc blew out again requiring a second surgery. Had that on July 18. Relieved the pain but disc still had a ton of material. Well, here we are again. I’m now looking at a double disc replacement and fusion of L4-L5-S1.

That's awful. About 20 years ago I blew out L4-L5 when I was competing in strongman. I didn't know what the problem was, but since it only hurt when I stood still I kept on competing for three more years before it hurt so bad that I finally decided to seek medical attention. I didn't get surgery and it's healed up now so I am considering myself blessed.

 

[asand211]

I'll definitely do that. Thanks for letting me know that. I sure do not want to step on toes. I really wanted to do it myself but with my back condition I was told by the doctor yesterday to not even lift a gallon of milk. I am learning a great dealing this thread though from all of you very knowledgeable people and I really enjoy that. I always believe you should never stop learning. Thank you again.

 

[asand211]

That's awful. About 20 years ago I blew out L4-L5 when I was competing in strongman. I didn't know what the problem was, but since it only hurt when I stood still I kept on competing for three more years before it hurt so bad that I finally decided to seek medical attention. I didn't get surgery and it's healed up now so I am considering myself blessed.

I'm 50 and we have a group at work that hits the gym daily. Due to my age I am always very careful. I never use heavy weights and I am careful with form. I worked out and didn't even know I had done any damage but my lower back was tingling. That was on a Friday. By Tuesday I was on a walker. That was in February and I'm still looking for a solution. I did a great deal of research on doctors and I have a great one. He is taking steps and didn't want to jump straight to a fusion. My employer has been phenomenal and taken great care of me. I could have retired June 1 but have no plans to .

 

[sparky 1971]

I'm 50 and we have a group at work that hits the gym daily. Due to my age I am always very careful. I never use heavy weights and I am careful with form. I worked out and didn't even know I had done any damage but my lower back was tingling. That was on a Friday. By Tuesday I was on a walker. That was in February and I'm still looking for a solution. I did a great deal of research on doctors and I have a great one. He is taking steps and didn't want to jump straight to a fusion. My employer has been phenomenal and taken great care of me. I could have retired June 1 but have no plans to .

I'm 53 now, mid thirties when I had the problems. A guy only has so many 600+ pound squats, 350 pound stone lifts, and 300 pound axle presses in him before something has to give. I'm fortunate that my pain was only temporary and The Lord allowed my disc to get fixed without doing anything drastic. It took about a year, but between a regular Dr., a chiropractor, and a PT, nobody could figure out what was wrong so I kept up what I was doing that caused the problem in the beginning. I finally went back to the doc and insisted on a Cortisone shot in my hip which was where the pain was. That got me referred to another Dr., and it was him who diagnosed the disc and ordered an MRI to prove it. Once I knew it was a disc, I researched how to fix it naturally and found a stretch that I should have been doing all along. I did that three times a day starting on a Monday, by the following Thursday I was pain free and haven't had a problem since, I still do it as part of my stretching when I am finished working out. Of course, the strongman stuff came to an abrupt end, by then I was married and didn't have anyone to show off for anyway.

 

[asand211]

I'm glad to hear you were able to fix it without any drastic measures. My orthopedic doctor knew exactly what was wrong when I saw him on the first visit. He said 75% of these injuries are able to heal without surgery. After the immediate rupture post surgery he said only 12% of people do that. I said clearly I'm that guy. Each time mine ruptures it contacts the spinal nerves and boy is it painful. I can't even describe it. I'm in pretty good shape but that means nothing when your nerves are involved. I just want to be out of pain and normal again.

 

[zendriver]

I'll definitely do that. Thanks for letting me know that. I sure do not want to step on toes. I really wanted to do it myself but with my back condition I was told by the doctor yesterday to not even lift a gallon of milk. I am learning a great dealing this thread though from all of you very knowledgeable people and I really enjoy that. I always believe you should never stop learning. Thank you again.

I glad I hired it done. Been two years, I'd probably still be mulling over what to use and how to do it, yet today.

The wire guy already had the wire, purchased in bulk and good priced components. He suggested a route to run the wires, I had not thought about.

Spend the money, if you have it and enjoy the job being done.

 

[asand211]

You've convinced me. That's the route I'll go. Thank you

 

[mdr]

In the midst of something similar. Detached garage, about 75' from the panel. Happened upon some #4 Copper on craigslist awhile ago. Had to trench natural gas for a firepit, piggybacked 2" conduit in the trench for garage electrical. Am now finishing (taping the #%@&) drywall.

Went with a siemens copper bus main breaker (sub)panel, 100a, 20 circuits, $120 from HD. Will use the 100A main breaker as a disconnect switch, with a 60amp breaker at the house main panel. I'll be using GFCI breakers at the subpanel for the circuits: inside lighting, outside lighting, 2x 120V 20amp, 2 x 240V 20 amp. I'll be running exposed conduit so I can add circuits as needed.

 

[sparky 1971]

In the midst of something similar. Detached garage, about 75' from the panel. Happened upon some #4 Copper on craigslist awhile ago. Had to trench natural gas for a firepit, piggybacked 2" conduit in the trench for garage electrical. Am now finishing (taping the #%@&) drywall.

Went with a siemens copper bus main breaker (sub)panel, 100a, 20 circuits, $120 from HD. Will use the 100A main breaker as a disconnect switch, with a 60amp breaker at the house main panel. I'll be using GFCI breakers at the subpanel for the circuits: inside lighting, outside lighting, 2x 120V 20amp, 2 x 240V 20 amp. I'll be running exposed conduit so I can add circuits as needed.

Only receptacle outlets need GFCI protection. The lighting doesn't need GFCI unless it plugs in.