Running romex in C-Purlin.

[sberry]

This forum needs work on load demand calcs and estimating actually and the difference between it and fantasy for lack of better words. Like marriage, lots of fargin the first year, not so much later. He will saw a lot while building and then not so much, load applied 1 at a time and the multi wire function for explanation wont be utilized. He will use 120V.
Second because the wire has a 20A breaker doesn't mean it will see 20A load.
I got 200 circuits, not more than a few amps running on a couple at a time, some never see more than an amp or 2 of light, very few ever see the load in a common kitchen, the power demands in a garage are somewhat similar in nature.

 

[sberry]

If I was doing this job and planning well which doesn't always happen,,, but assuming that would hook some 4x4 with a couple circuits off the panel to get going, get a couple power strips, round up a couple cords or buy any 25 ft I needed, find some fixtures and a couple 3 way and hang some stuff to get work wise. Fit some stuff in, get warm, park my air comp, wire it, consider some shelves, run a piece of pipe and a cable or 3 in that channel wouldn't bother me a bit here, as a raceway it doesn't get much better, glue or screw some cable stackers in if it makes one feel better.
Wavy wont matter, this will all get covered, its empty now, put 2 cars in there and some **** and it will shrink fast. 1 car and it will shrink and you will forget all about a lot of this. You will find a year from now you use an outlet over there on occasion for a light, a battery charger or power tool on occasion, around the bench will need some stuff fo0r parasitic ****. 2 tool circuits, one primary most of the time, a light circuit and ones to any dedicated on demand or larger loads.
Instead of taking a lesson for pipe bends first thing hang it all and really decide what bends you need.
Been there done that, 800 in materials where today would get the same service for 2. A roll of 12/2 is something I would have on hand, buy 10 pieces of 1/2, a box of connectors and 25 couplings. Half a dozen deep 4x4, 100 romex or cable connectors, 1 piece of 3/4 pipe and 2 connectors and a welding recept. 5 20A, 1 15 as I might find some 14 for lights to get a little creative for switches, a breaker for an air comp and 50 for welder.
This is stock you will use at some point and would want any extra when I was finished. If you start building like a bat out of hell will dawn on you at some point it could been half the work and cost and 2x as easy.
I built some shelves a while back, certainly didn't completely envision it when I wired it. I could and did make the changes but I got nonsense parked where I can run 15K lights,,, I use 100 watts once a week for minutes.
I do have a basement with 800 or 1000 watts on, again for minutes duty and the last time I did any work actually backtracked and added them all to one circuit and a single switch.

 

[sberry]

Wouldn't bother me to spend a little more on the MC and some 90 degree connectors either.

 

[penright]

Has anyone mess with distributor called Zoro?
Getting ready to buy some parts. The have 4x4 30.3CU boxes for 1.67. Cheaper then box stores. Conduit was more, they were $8ish and box stores were $3ish. I guess it cost more to ship 10 foot long awkward parts.
Then at $200 get a 20% discount.

 

[ard]

I have, seemed fine. Purchased a bunch of breakers, GCFI and AFCI....

Shipping not as fast as Amazo, but who is?

 

[penright]

Is it legal to highjack your own thread?

Just found out I may not be getting my 4 foot T8 fixtures. I had plans to direct wire LED. Need to find plan B just in case it becomes official.

Either way, I do have one lighting issue. The overhead doors. I was getting the fixtures cheap enough (free), my thought was .... Mount one for each bay at the front off the rafters (2 fixtures). Then hang one on each side and in the middle just below the door tracks (3 fixtures).

Lot of great ideas around here, so I thought I would bounce this one out there.

 

[sberry]

rig it up. any kind of stuff, I plugged in some common table lamps and clamps on girts till I got squared away. Its kind of ironic , once you are done building don't need the same power in the same places. Get the panel hooked up with a couple outlets and power strips.
Pipe and breakers are good at the stores and box full of common connectors are fine. Resist the temptation to buy everything in sight. I have a couple places, have 20 outlets in 10 ft and some there is an outlet at 20 ft and only rarely use that.
The modern power strip is a thing of beauty. At one point I had a real cluster, managed to reduce the pieces and need and simply removed a couple strips.

 

[penright]

rig it up. any kind of stuff, I plugged in some common table lamps and clamps on girts till I got squared away.

Definitely going to have to do that till I get the trailer unloaded and some tools unpacked.

Resist the temptation to buy everything in sight. I have a couple places, have 20 outlets in 10 ft and some there is an outlet at 20 ft and only rarely use that.

I agree about the outlets. My old space I had one duplex over the workbench, then 2 down the wall with one by the door. In one corner where drill press, grinder, etc ... I pulled the duplex out, put a cover with a hole for like tv cable. I had a metal strip of outlets (pre wired raceway) that was salvage from a lab that was being remodeled. I mounted it where the conduit screw in over the hole. Then screwed to studs. That gave me about 5 or 6 outlets in that corner, called it done.

Lights on the other hand, I never felt there was enough. I know working on a car, there is always a hole and you are going to have to use a drop light. Lights is one area I could go overboard easily and like it.

Talk about hacking a light system. I had collected a bunch of open wheel race car parts. I was going to build it some day. Guy I worked with had two car garage with one incandescent light and a couple of outlets. First thing we took a ballast for the old 8 foot single pin bulbs. Screw it to one of the trusses. Solder some wire to it and ran one to one side and the other wire to the other side. Stapled it and let about 6" hand down. Then solder it to the pins and that is what held up the bulb. There was plenty of light from those two bulbs. Of course back then we were 24 and now I am over 30 years older so that might be some of it. The guy I wrenched for in high school, kind of my car repair mentor, was always grabbing a light and scolding me for not having one. Now that I am his age, I see why.

One other hack we did in the day, we put the car together with old cracker box Lincoln. Went down and bought about 20 feet of #10, made an extension cord, and plugged it into his dryer outlet when we needed to weld.
As you can imagine both of us was single at the time and we DID NOT burn down anything down. I did get a nasty sunburn welding up the engine stand we made, lesson learned. BTW we campaigned the car at two tracks in 85. One was highly competitive OKC fairgrounds and the other was small town Meeker. Finished 8th in points Meeker and not so good OKC. In 86 finished 8th in OKC. Was married early 87 and that was the last time we raced. Not because the new wife wouldn't let me, just priorities changed.

 

[sberry]

Actually the 10 to the outlet for the welder was pretty good if the cable didn't get damaged. You were not as reckless as you thought as the machine comes with a factory 12 cord.
I will agree about light, its hard to get too much. In this situation a lot of sq ft will be covered by car. My place is bad, its big, I havnt bought anything new, have a bunch of stuff rigged to zone light and shut off when I don't need it.
I use some old 500 watt and have them on local switches, when I walk away from it off they go. I hang a couple 3 small cfl and they run around the clock but don't have to switch light to move around.
Same for the night lights, at one point I was sitting there and had none,,, duh, I was tired of wiring and then bight the bullet and fix it up but now have positioned them for coverage and can see from building to building without having to switch.

 

[sberry]

I put a 4 ft over my bench recently, it actually saves or breaks even as I often don't turn big overhead on just to do some generic function and when I use the 4 ft it helps the surrounding area.
I use 3 stands, it all has issues, the ceilings are high. In a common garage a handful of simple hanging fixtures would do a lot on most of the real work area. Get a couple bulk size rolls of steel hanger strap and a few bolts and a box of beam clamps. They are worth shopping price over and I bought some minnies a while back and got stuck from a jobber.
You can use a simple flat plate to clamp in to the channel but there are spots in the girts it wont hurt a thing to put some screws or small bolts, its how you hook **** to it. Its screwed and bolted together and we even have an occasion to weld a few things to it.
Beam clamps let a guy move something especially in the ceiling.
One of the benefits of diy is you can take a little time which is often more important than how much you can toss at it. I would consider running the lights pretty much separate from most the rest of it. a 1/2 pipe from box , to gfci box up a ways, so it could be reached to ceiling and a Jbox and to any switch loops I was interested in. Put a recept cover on that jbox hooked to a couple wires from switches, another section of pipe and another outlet. You could take off whips even as needed.

 

[sberry]

Light's

 

[sberry]

whoops. I am playing with the phone. I blast local light on. In a hoe garage you have advantage of lower ceilings the overall can work a lot better. In mu case have some 4 ft over work areas or tools as in the case of the hoist. I got about everything needed all clustered under a light. I can push rolling benches under it.

 

[penright]

Light's

I see in the one picture you have a golf cart. I guess that to get from one end of your shop to the other?

 

[sberry]

I see in the one picture you have a golf cart. I guess that to get from one end of your shop to the other?

I have a different situation but the point was that it aint got to all hurry and some of the makeshift so to speak come from necessity and tailoring, try to make it too purdy and you don't want to fuss with it for fear or ruining some hi dollar powder coat you got 75$ in to when a piece of tape would be a great answer.
If you rush there isn't chance for a Bud or 2 to drop some stuff in your lap.

 

[penright]

Just teasing about the size of the building and golf cart ...

If you rush there isn't chance for a Bud or 2 to drop some stuff in your lap.

Point taken.

Do you see someone in my future with some old T8 4' fixtures I can direct wire for LED?

 

[sberry]

Lots of my stuff started as prototype and ended up working well enough it worked, simple as that. Only the big fundamentals I designed turned out well. I remember how I had some bench ideas in the beginning, then realize how much it all cost, then fall back and come up with something that worked as I needed it, in the end go so far as to weed some of it out and not so much anymore but change it if I didn't like it.
I built a lot of stuff twice, a couple things more to get closer. Sometimes in the same day.

 

[sberry]

I really don't know one light from another. I think some of these guys were getting some modern 4 ft for 20$ maybe? My bet you will pack this with furniture fast. That is another area for huge savings, a few pieces of good used may spend a little on but so much is thrown away that its worth a little hunting vs rushing off to the cab store IMOP.

 

[sberry]

Words dont work for this stuff.

You can see a box with a blank plate is a "T". Some of the pipes bend up to head to lights, some go up into the attic for other stuff... just to give you an idea.

If you run a ring of 1", you can run multiple receptacle circuits, plus larger cables for 220 stuff- compressor, saws, welders. The point is once the ring is installed, the added cost to add a 50Amp circuit to the other side of the room is whatever a few strand of #6 cost.

Hope that helps rattle stuff around!

This is great in a building with several 20 ft bays but this is a 24x30 for 2 cars, You figure he needs a few welder outlets. 1 car takes 30 % of the space with little walk room as it is.

 

[sberry]

840 sq ft here, Almost 60 ft lost to wall thickness and bypass sheeting girts, a few to door swing and cars that take up near 200 ft before we even open a door to get in or out. You don't have to run far to a welder outlet. Same for a comp, this will be modest and everything else here should be simple 120 or you built the wrong kind of place.
Come to think of it the only 240 I have is welder, comp and a pressure washer most people don't have, actually a walk in cooler too but that probably doesn't apply to this thread.

 

[penright]

I did post this in my build thread, but had to add it here ....

Look what I found when I got home tonight ....

 

[penright]

Looking at order what I need for EMT. Looking for a bender.
I see a caption Conduit Bender, 3/4 EMT, 1/2 Rigid
Edit: Can't get the link to work try this "https://www.zoro.com/i/G4284445/"
I did google EMT vs Rigid. I see the thin/thick wall terms used.
Spec says 3/4 EMT. Ridge looks like a thicker walled pipe. If so then would not all 3/4 EMT benders be able to bend 1/2 Rigid? Is one that can do Rigid stronger? I just curious if my guessing is correct?

 

[sberry]

I could do this thing in 1/2 easy. stick to 1 size. EMT is thinwall.

 

[penright]

I could do this thing in 1/2 easy. stick to 1 size. EMT is thinwall.

Definitely only one size.
I hear you about the 1/2. I don't think 3/4 pipe and bender is going to cost more than $15 to $20 dollars more. My thought is since I am sticking to one size and there may be some back tracking for light switch, might as well make the jump. I know it goes against your preaching of over indulgence but I don't think it too far.
I do have a couple of more questions.

1.My choice of wire are 50', 100' and 500'. The difference per foot between 50' and 100' is negligible. Between 100' ($.26) and 500' ($.09) is a lot. I think 100' would be close 500' overkill. I think I will do 100' then if I need more go to the box store and buy 50'
2. Why is black THHN more than white or green for the same wire?
3.Everyone says the good thing about using EMT is you can go back and add to it. I must be missing something, would you not have to pull the wire out. Pull the EMT down, cut it bend it, then re-pull old and new wire? Granted the worst case there is not enough slack for the junction or the new leg. But you could reuse a lot. Am I looking at this right?

 

[ard]

Looking at order what I need for EMT. Looking for a bender.
I see a caption Conduit Bender, 3/4 EMT, 1/2 Rigid
Edit: Can't get the link to work try this "https://www.zoro.com/i/G4284445/"
I did google EMT vs Rigid. I see the thin/thick wall terms used.
Spec says 3/4 EMT. Ridge looks like a thicker walled pipe. If so then would not all 3/4 EMT benders be able to bend 1/2 Rigid? Is one that can do Rigid stronger? I just curious if my guessing is correct?

Yes. 3/4" emt is the same OD (approx) as 1/2" rigid Conduit. DO NOT mess with rigid conduit, no need for this.

The 3/4" gives you the most options down the road for heavier loads, welder wire, whatever.

1.My choice of wire are 50', 100' and 500'. The difference per foot between 50' and 100' is negligible. Between 100' ($.26) and 500' ($.09) is a lot. I think 100' would be close 500' overkill. I think I will do 100' then if I need more go to the box store and buy 50'

Buy a 500 ft roll for $45. Done. By the time you spend $26 for 100 feet, then run to the store twice more for 50 ft at 15 each, you'll have spend more!

2. Why is black THHN more than white or green for the same wire?

Then use red. How much more? a penny?

3.Everyone says the good thing about using EMT is you can go back and add to it. I must be missing something, would you not have to pull the wire out. Pull the EMT down, cut it bend it, then re-pull old and new wire? Granted the worst case there is not enough slack for the junction or the new leg. But you could reuse a lot. Am I looking at this right?

Lets say you want to add a welder outlet 6 feet to the right of the last receptacle: Run new 6 feet of EMT from that receptacle to the new box for the welder. Snake in new wires next to the existing wires from the panel to each box along the way, to that last receptacle, then on to the new box.

(There are some 'tricks' to running that added wire....for future posts...)

 

[sberry]

I would pipe in another simple piece or 2 to a welder, as I said, one size pipe, a piece or 2 extra wont hurt. You wont need to come back and add much for real demand, mostly changes for convenience. If you keep it simple and local to the panel only need a few ft for a welder.

 

[ard]

I was just giving the OP an example to illustrate adding a wire and circuit doesnt require removal of all the EMT, recutting and rebending.... thats all

 

[sberry]

Yes. I want to add, someone buying wire 100 ft at a time won't be stuffing ppile full. I might a full roll of black, white and a few ft of green for box covers. I don't add an extra wire in steel building with pipe. Get off the 3/4 thought. The 1/2 is do much nicer for loops, adding boxes and fittings.

 

[ard]

Question:

Personally I like running stranded (as opposed to solid) in conduit, emt or pvc. Yes, it requires attention where you attach to devices- you may need to wirenut a piece of solid to connect to a screw terminal that isnt rated for stranded wire. But it is just easier to work with.

Thoughts?

 

[penright]

Started running EMT last night. First time to ever bend any. Watched the videos, but it's hard to have any questions before try one. Did two last night and did not have to throw any away. Or at least this time, I am sure it's coming. Not bad for a beginner if I say so myself. And I do say so.

Do have a some questions.
Doing offsets like I was doing last night. I need small offset. One was 2" and the other was 3". I tried to use a chart, it started at 2" then 3",4",5", ... I might have had better luck with a multiplier.
My question, the chart only show a value for 22.5 degrees at 2". It was not until 5" before 45 degrees had a value. Can you use the 1.5 and use a 45 to clear a 2" obstacle?
Also, if you are a little off is there a rule of thumb to tweak it somehow or do you just start over?
Any words of wisdom other than keep practicing?

Here the update on my build thread.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6249024&postcount=21

 

[ard]

Oh, a way for beginners to cheat: Mame the bend such that the resulting leg is an inch too long- THEN cut to fit.

 

[sberry]

That and you can set a box on the floor or draw it and keep fudging it a bit till it fits. After a little while a guy can guess, I rarely use any real math unless I have to except for a 90 to a box with a specific fit and on occasion do like was suggested above especially if I have to cut the pipe anyway.