Running second water line underground

[shamrock12]

Here in South Dakota, we use rural water system which runs directly through large farm fields. In our case, we have a line that goes through our backyard from a field and that is where the junction point, drop-off point, whatever you call it ... where the water meter is hooked up underground to our house. There is a remote meter readout on a post right above the junction point next to 12" man-hole or whatever it is called. That spot is about 100 feet behind our house.

Our pole barn is being built as of now and it is about 15 feet from this junction point I am speaking about. Our plan is to run a second line from that junction point or just past that (on our metered line) as it would be 15-20 feet run to the corner of barn where we need the water supply.

The plumber we called says that he would only run a line from our house to the barn instead of tapping into the existing line. Seems ridiculous do do all those extra work of digging 100 feet run at 5-6 feet depth. Not to mention there are a few trees to maneuver around. He said he would run the line if we do the digging and even says we could put in a sleeve and backfill, then he would come and pull a line through.

Is there anything wrong or against the code to run a second line off the metered line underground? Or do you think the plumber is just being lazy & want to make some easy money?

 

[Bigwhite11]

Plumber is being very lazy! There is no reason at all why you couldn't just run the water line like you've said, just tap into the existing line just past the meter and run it to the barn. If it's your property and you know how to do it, just do it yourself. You don't need a license to work on your own property. As long as everything is done correctly you shouldn't have any problems with a plumbing inspector if one would even come out and take a look.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Talk to the rural water district - they're the ones that make the rules. I'm guessing they only want one meter per residence but if you can splice off the line downstream of the meter it would seem that's acceptable.

 

[Krash Kadillak]

Sounds like he's trying to buy a new car........

Did he explain why he couldn't just 't' off after the meter?

If you need to hire a plumber, hire a different one.

I get really steamed with hired contractors that try to tell you how you want your stuff done. Was having a concrete slab poured once - a one-car space between my existing driveway and the edge of the property. At the edge of the slab, I wanted a 4" curbing so I wouldn't drive over onto my neighbor's grass. Contractor talked me out of it. Mad at myself for not sticking to my guns.

 

[djkeev]

Sounds to me like he is afraid of a little mud?

Cut an existing water line, water WILL come out! Possibly a lot of water. Now to make the Tee connection you have to climb into a 5 foot deep hole and wallow in the mud for 20 minutes!

Bottom line? Do it yourself or get a plumber who isn't afraid to get wet.

If the new trench from the garage to the existing water line is dug intelligently, there will be a drain basin excavated not far from the union to catch most of the water run out fairly neatly and quickly causing minimal mud to work in.

Dave

 

[shamrock12]

Thanks everyone ... we called another plumber and he came over right away & installed a second line by teeing just past the metered line underground. No problem

I do have another questing though ... the water line is laid 6 feet underground and then run straight up vertically through the shop floor grade near the corner. So the line is only a few inches from exterior ground which I believe could be subject to freezing. How can I help insulate/protect the first few feet of line from the grade and going down?

 

[Sureshot]

Sleeve the line from surface to prevent the frost from pulling on the line if it does freeze. How or are you heating and insulating?
You could put heat tape in the sleeve to be safe but I doubt it will be a problem. Maybe throw some plastic down with a couple straw bales on it for the first year where it goes in.

 

[shamrock12]

The shop will have 4" slab with radiant floor heat (along with 2" of XPS foam underneath). Thanks

 

[Highbeam]

Just kills me to think about 6 foot bury on water lines. We only go 18" here near the coast as our ground doesn't freeze.

 

[shamrock12]

Extreme frost depth is close to 6 feet for this region in South Dakota!

 

[EOC_Jason]

Hmmm... Maybe sleeve it with a larger diameter PVC line then fill it with expanding foam to insulate the line?

Glad you got a second opinion. Usually the water company's only concern it up to the meter. Anything on your side is not their problem.

 

[BD1]

install a frost free yard hydrant that's eight feet long. Here's a couple of sites.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=water+frost+free+hydrant&qpvt=water+frost+free+hydrant&FORM=IGRE

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex641

 

[shamrock12]

The water is to stay on year-round so using a frost free hydrant is not going to work. What I have is a pole barn which will be getting 4" slab poured next week (along with radiant floor tubing) so before they do that, I need to insulate the 1" water line that is run vertically between the grade and 6 feet underground. Since the line is so close to the exterior that the frost would probably penetrate under the slab a bit around the perimeter. I can't see how I can spray foam inside a long PVC sleeve.

At this point, what I am thinking is getting a foam pipe wrap then slip that into a PVC sleeve. In addition, lay 2" XPS foamboard underground from the outside. Would those work or is there a better way to handle this? Thanks

 

[Outlawmws]

An option that has passed you by would have been to not tee off the line, but to cut, and run the line to the shop, then back to the original line, and place the tee near the shop; that way ALL the water use, house and shop, helps keep the lines of freezing. As it is your line at the shop probably doesn't see a lot of use, and probably less in the winter...

 

[TommyK]

They make direct bury insulation. Check with plumbing supply house.

 

[pstnbly]

You can use an inline heater, a tee is placed inside, heater is inserted in the waterline and held in place with a compression fitting, a sensor is mounted to the pipe. Common in the mobile home industry where the water line passes through the unheated space. Sorry I don't have a link.

 

[Highbeam]

What would make you happier? The stub coming up a foot away from the edge of the slab? Since you have 6 feet of vertical water line, you can dig down and deflect the water line towards the desired location and then backfill to hold it there. The deeper you dig the better, and before you backfill, install the heat tape and wrap in insulation. You are commited to heating the building either way so you will have to maintain power so you may as well put a heat wire on the water line.

I sure hope there is a valve somewhere near the shop and/or at the new tee. If the shop water line does burst you will have to shut off the entire service to your home and then dig through all of that frozen ground to repair the line which will probably be a huge block of ice.

Living in SD you really need to consider basic survival needs like water.

 

[Sureshot]

I don't think it will freeze with in floor heat. Be sure to sleeve it and run a couple spare sleeves for the future. If you are concerned just slide a heat tape in and use if necessary. Is the water line coming in anywhere near your heat source? For one unheated building that has a boiler I made a "heater tube" from an 8' piece of PEX with a plug in it. On the other end I put a 1/4 npt tee. Opposite the PEX on the tee I put a fitting for truck air line that I had drilled out enough so the air line went through the fitting, T, and down into the bottom of the PEX. The crimp fitting on the air fitting sealed the inner line. you can then use a valve to slowly circulate boiler fluid through it. I inserted it into one of the spare line adjacent the water line and have just enough going through it to keep the frost from setting in. We have 8' frost line here.

 

[shamrock12]

A short length of 2" PVC sleeve is already in place (about 2 feet long) that will stick above & below the slab. It is the water line below the heated slab (soon to be poured) that I am concerned about, not what is inside the shop. As you can see in the drawing, the 6ft vertical run is just inches from the imaginary boundary of exterior element. So if there is a deep frost penetration in the ground, I would believe that it would spread toward the water line as the frost goes deeper, right? The water line is only inches from the outside wall of the barn.

Would placing a foamboard vertically in the ground (where the exterior wall is) help advert this potential issue? If so, how thick should the board be? 2" or 3" ?

 

[Flatland Dave]

I'd say that your plumber is either lazy, or doesn't understand what you are asking. When I did the same, I rented a small excavator and run the line my self. from the nearest point of the waterline (house) to to the places I wanted water. The only reason I didn't come off the main line ater the meter was I would have to go under a a septic line and a propane line. Where at in SD?

 

[Slick111]

I did a 140 ft water line run 6 years ago in Newell SD 6 feet deep from the house to my sisters barn put a 4 inch PVC pipe straight down through the cement barn floor with a 45 deg elbow at the bottom of the trench ran the 3/4 inch Pecks water line inside then filled it with spay can foam insulation never had a freeze up yet in 30 below winters.

 

[Mattlt]

A couple of straw bales on the outside of the shed near where the water line enters the building will help a lot as well.